Reading this thread I'm really not surprised. There's always people who'll defend even the most ridiculous things.
American Cops Doing What They Do Best
- Thread starter DatIrishFella
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Call me heartless but I find it very hard to find sympathy for a man who finds it acceptable to throw a large rock (a lethal weapon) at a police officers head from point blank range.
Being a police officer in America seems like an impossible job.
Being a police officer in America seems like an impossible job.
I'm quite sure nobody has defended the actions of the shooters.
Its not impossible, but certainly difficult, especially with the current race tensions.
Well honestly, making sweeping generalisations about gypsies and the police force is pretty moronic.
Humans make generalisations all the time. Get over it
Just can't help yourself, can you!
Whats your problem?
I was making a light hearted comment as you had a generalisation in your post about generalisation.
Oh ok! Stick a smiley on there or something
Chill out, guys 
The UK police aren't perfect, but this type of incident seems a lot more commonplace in the USA.
the guy tried to hit a cop with a rock or a brick and the Brazilian was trying to get a train. Anyway they could shoot his balls or something but they don't have to kill the guy the problem is when 1 cop shoots then the other cops do the same.
The Charles de Menezes affair was huge over here. I'm not denying any part of the police's actions in that incident and in my eyes they are as culpable as the U.S. cops killing people like we saw in that video, or people like Eric Garner etc.
How big was it? I was only 10 or 11 at the time.
It was a massive story in the UK. It was a series of monumental feck-ups by the Police that led to his death. There was a lot of confusion over the facts and who was responsible, and that only fuelled the story to run and run.
Can we get just a little bit of perspective here? Charles de Menezes was shot in a case of mistaken identity and ran away when asked by armed Police to remain still. He was mistaken for a failed suicide bomber from the previous days failed plan to blow up parts of Londons transport system and potentially kill thousands. However all the bombs failed to detonate. Let's not forget that it was also only two weeks after the 7/7 London attack.
I'm not condoning the Police or their actions as an innocent man died, but I just don't think it's the best example to use here.
I'm not condoning the Police or their actions as an innocent man died, but I just don't think it's the best example to use here.
There will never be progress and change until the Americans figure out that this problem would be massively helped with accurate data. Americans don't keep track of the number of police shootings or death caused by cops or any sort of gun statistic that would be invaluable in dealing with such an entrenched and complicated problem.
British police don't carry firearms, right? A machete wielding man in most parts of the world would be shot down after making one attempt at a cop, and probably justly so. There's a massive difference in throwing a rock at someone or wielding a machete. It took about two dozen police to subdue that man as well. Good for the UK in this scenario but it's highly likely a different outcome occurs if UK police are carrying firearms.
This doesn't condone the actions those officers took shooting the guy that surrendered, but if that man was wielding a machete at police versus tossing a rock, would you seriously find it excessive force by the police?
What if one of those police officers was your best friend or a family member, resisted to fire on the suspect, then got his neck slashed and bled out?
In here? Probably catch you and you'll get some knuckles sandwich in the station
There's one incident where the cops are doing routine operation, the perpetrator goes mad and stab 3 police dead... can't imagine what they'll do to him
It's easy to judge things on youtube and footage, but for most cops it's their life on the line. Some may be excessive, some are paranoid, some have mental issue, some probably are being targeted for revenge, and to take things into perspective, being a COP in US must have been a pretty scarry shit, with people armed, gang members armed to the teeth, and not to mention any false shooting / excessive force can land them in lawsuit.
It's easy for us commoners to use common sense, but with your life on the line the margin of error can be very thin, and the best they can do is take the safest (in most case most over the top action they can get away with), in terms of shootout from close range, all they had is that split second to decide whether or not the perpetrators can endanger their life, and with their hands on the trigger most of the time, a slight nerve spasm can ended up as shots fired.
If I was a cop, and not getting a hindsight, i'd probably be scared as feck if someone holding or trying to grab something resembling a gun, and if god forbid I have the suspect in my aim, him making a slightest move will only leave me a split second to act, and both my hands are on the gun, there's no more room to manuveur, to talk him out, there's only one thing to do : squeeze the trigger.
It's not easy for them, not to mention that the lawsuit and media pressure that'll surely follow (specially in this age of justice by the media), I'm sure that no normal ordinary cop would simply shoot anyone deliberately.
(This is not in relation with the footage, but more of my take in general)
It's easy for us commoners to use common sense, but with your life on the line the margin of error can be very thin, and the best they can do is take the safest (in most case most over the top action they can get away with), in terms of shootout from close range, all they had is that split second to decide whether or not the perpetrators can endanger their life, and with their hands on the trigger most of the time, a slight nerve spasm can ended up as shots fired.
If I was a cop, and not getting a hindsight, i'd probably be scared as feck if someone holding or trying to grab something resembling a gun, and if god forbid I have the suspect in my aim, him making a slightest move will only leave me a split second to act, and both my hands are on the gun, there's no more room to manuveur, to talk him out, there's only one thing to do : squeeze the trigger.
It's not easy for them, not to mention that the lawsuit and media pressure that'll surely follow (specially in this age of justice by the media), I'm sure that no normal ordinary cop would simply shoot anyone deliberately.
(This is not in relation with the footage, but more of my take in general)
Wrong, you'd be surprised how many armed Police there are in the UK, all parts of the country have Armed Response Vehicle units on duty, particularly in London, where that video looks like it was filmed.
They have access to armed response units. If that bloke had been carrying a gun they'd have been called in. Not every scenario involving someone who is armed and resisting arrest requires a lethal response though. Moving back to the video in the OP, there's no way that couldn't have been dealt with in a way that ensured the safety of those cops without shooting dead someone who was holding empty hands out wide. That's the key issue here. Don't know if it's training or the general culture of fear the gun lobby foster in the states but over-reaction to perceived threat has become the norm over there. Which is a big problem.
Quite a few Americans don't see it as an over reaction. They look at that video and agree with the cops. What argument will convince these people?
Even when they have a gun pointing at them, the Police don't shoot to kill.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11288994/Teenage-gunman-aimed-rifle-at-police.html
Just seen this story linked to below that one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...lised-and-licensed-Nigel-Farage-has-said.html
It's probably some of both, but there's absolutely no doubt that the route cause of the problem is everyone's favourite Amendment to the Constitution.
I can't see the video clearly, if that's what happened... blimey... bricking a cop in the face.... I don't think in that spur adrenalin rush i can guarantee i have enough restraint to act according to the law., the man has just thrown a brick to my head
The man is a fecking idiot.Just seen this story linked to below that one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...lised-and-licensed-Nigel-Farage-has-said.html
As Tarrou mentioned, it was massive. I was only a couple of years older than yourself, but I remember not being allowed to take the tube for ages as my mum thought I'd get shot (lol). The guy was totally innocent, posed no threat. He was pinned down and shot 7 times in the head. Iirc, there were two versions of the event and one was a huge cover up (on Hillsborough scale). Police chiefs resigning, racial profiling, charges, counter charges, the whole shabang.
Just when you thought Nigel Farage couldn't be any more complete a feckwit.Just seen this story linked to below that one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...lised-and-licensed-Nigel-Farage-has-said.html
I live down the road from Stockwell Station and there's a mural of him on the wall outside and people still bring flowers/stick notes etc. Was a big deal. You'd have to go a while to find a Londoner who didn't know his name or what it meant.
Shorn of any context it's a far worse feck up than this, obviously, but then that context was 2 weeks after 7/7 and the day after a follow up plot was foiled. Still inexcusable, but going back 10 years to find an incident comparable with something that seems to happen every 10 days in the US, and even then having it be a mistaken high stakes terrorism call, isn't a particularly winning argument.
Duggan would probably be a better one, but even that isn't as cut and dry.
Its taken a couple of hundred years but the US has finally developed a complete Island mentality. The majority of Americans have no idea what life or values are like beyond their own nation.
God bless america and the rest are inferior and out to get us. We are entitled to denfend ourselves, against something - we don't know what - so we'll arm ourselves to the teeth, shoot first and ask questions later.
That's a dangerous receipe particularly when you throw racial and social inequality into the pot.
God bless america and the rest are inferior and out to get us. We are entitled to denfend ourselves, against something - we don't know what - so we'll arm ourselves to the teeth, shoot first and ask questions later.
That's a dangerous receipe particularly when you throw racial and social inequality into the pot.
Yep, its a fairly self contained country that sets its own norms rather than receive them from other countries. Although that's changing a bit over the past decade or so.
If you want to know something really scary, US governments communication strategies in the last 70 years having been based on the exact theory which enabled the fascists to gain such blind loyal devotion in Germany in the 30's. A very basic theory on the psychology of crowds.
The US aren't alone, its just the biggest crowd, the bigger the crowd the more extreme the devotion. The difference between fascists and the US is that with the fascists the devotion was to a man as the embodiment of the nation, in the US its to the sacred constitution.
Whilst you are right, one of the things standing in the way of the US bringing about the changes needed to fix it's biggest problems is the fact that a lot of the time it doesn't treat itself as one nation, rather 50 States.
There are parts of the country that are far more backwards than others, and as long as amendments to the Constitution requires ratification by at least 38 States they will be stuck in a relative stone age for at least a few more generations.
That's exactly the same as what I said just above you.
As I also mentioned Charles de Menezes was mistakenly identified as one of the failed suicide bombers from the previous days failed attacks. He was wearing a backpack and was stopped by armed Police. He could have just stopped but he chose to run, right in to a packed tube station and was shot boarding a train. Yes it was a monumental feck up, it shouldn't of happened and is a tragedy as an innocent man lost his life. However London and everyone in it was absolutely petrified only two weeks after 7/7 and a day after another failed plot that was aimed at Londons transport system (trains and buses).
In the weeks following the 7/7 attacks The Police were as nervous, scared and uptight as everyone else, they saw what they felt was a suspect and tried to restrain him, he fled right in to a packed station and the Police (in their mind) had to shoot or let him blow everyone up. As I said in my earlier post, i'm not condoning the Police or their actions and it was a tragedy, but put in perspective it really cannot be compared to the events we are all discussing here.
Look at the poll resultsJust seen this story linked to below that one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...lised-and-licensed-Nigel-Farage-has-said.html
~75% in favour with about 200,000 votes. Wtf.
The latest 2 episodes of This American Life provides an interesting look into these sorts of incidents. For the most part nothing you probably wouldn't have already assumed but they're worthwhile listens for sure.