Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
:confused:
Cons+UKIP were almost 50%, and could be pushed over the edge with smaller right-wing parties (which I'm assuming were Euroscpetics)

IIRC, the Greens were also in favour of a referendum when it was proposed.

And by way of some historical context, all of the main parties promised a referendum on the EU Constitution. Their subsequent failure to hold one for the Lisbon Treaty only added fuel to the Eurosceptic fire. Such deceit contributed to where we find ourselves today; both in terms of BrexIt, and the distrust of MPs.
 
You think people say that in the UK now?

You have been away a very long time and you are French now. You can't come back, things have changed and so have you. All the things you think you know about the UK are wrong outdated and misinformed.

Good luck being French I hope it works out for you but stop pretending you know jack shit about living in the UK now because you lived here once a long, long time ago.

Go on I'll keep up with your pretence, highly amusing watching you dig a hole for yourself every time you post.

Can you tell me whereabouts in the UK you live.

Three months might seem a long long time for a child.

You ought to tell all the other Brit expats and non-British people that they don't know what they're talking about either. Poor old Stan's lived in Holland for about 20 years I believe, he hasn't got a clue either.

People like us don't have access to the internet or information, we don't have families who live in the UK, we have no knowledge of what goes on in the world.

You wise people who have lived all over Britain and know about every aspect of British life can certainly teach us a few things, or do you get your information from the Daily Mail
 
I thought you were against negativity?
depends on your interpretation of negativity

Despite me loathing some eu politicians I am very positive about my own lot and will make whatever situation I am in, work for me.

I am not 24/7 angry about it either. I can do very little to change it, no vote, no voice.
 
Try about 40% of our laws - the exact number varies. Key areas being agriculture, fisheries and trade. The EU's widespread control of lawmaking is indisputable.

Do you realise that the member states are the ones who have granted EU that power for good reason, i.e. harmonisation of regulation in order to facilitate trade? Non-tariff trade barriers, such as different technical standards and administrative rules in every European country for products and services of various kinds for little to no reason, are the largest disrupter of international trade.

By not adopting EU legislation you make cross-border trade suffer, simple as that. The EU does not make stuff up out of cruelty, it does so to make life easier and less bureaucratic for EU companies and citizens. Instead of adapting to 28 sets of legislation every time you are dealing with a European country, which most people do a lot, a British company or citizen only needs to know one.
 
EU Law - the ECJ and primacy over national laws

In this article, Martin Howe QC explains the basics of EU law:
  • how, unlike normal international treaties, it penetrates into the domestic courts and internal legal systems of Member States;
  • how it has 'primacy' and claims to override all national laws including fundamental and constitutional laws;
  • how the European Court of Justice has set about expanding the scope of its own powers and the scope of EU law by creative and politically driven 'interpretation' of the treaties and of EU laws.
The basics - EU law and national law

What is the key feature that makes the EU treaties different in kind from every other international Treaty to which this country belongs, and quite possibly makes them unique in the world? To this question, a lawyer can give only one answer: the key feature is EU law, formerly known as Community law - a system of law that penetrates inside the member states and takes precedence over national laws in the domestic courts of the member states.

Many treaties bind states with rules at the international or external level – but it is this internal penetration which marks out the European treaties (formerly the Treaty of Rome) as different from other treaties. In fact, this internal penetration is a classic characteristic, not of international treaties, but of the internal constitutional arrangements of federal states. And like a federal state, the European Union has its own supreme court, the European Court of Justice, which has the ultimate power of decision over both the content and the scope of EU law.

This court is not a neutral or impartial interpreter of the rules. If we look back over the nearly 60 years since the Treaty of Rome was signed in 1957, it allows us to see clearly how profoundly that original Treaty has been changed by the actions of the ECJ. I am not speaking here of the many changes to its text which have been made by successive amending treaties such as the Single European Act, Maastricht or Lisbon. I am talking of the profound changes in the effective content of the Treaty which have occurred as a result of a process of so-called “interpretation” of the Treaty by the Court.

The key point that Treaty articles have direct effect inside the member states is nowhere stated in the Treaty, but was decided by the European Court in the Van Gend en Loos case in 1963. It said: "The Treaty is more than an agreement which merely creates mutual obligations between the contracting states. This view is confirmed by the preamble to the Treaty which refers not only to governments but to peoples. ... the Community constitutes a new legal order in international law for whose benefit the states have limited their sovereign rights, albeit within limited fields, and the subjects of which comprise not only the Member States but also their nationals." Shortly afterwards in 1964 in the Costa v. ENEL case, the Court ruled that Community law over-rides conflicting national laws: "The transfer by the States from their domestic legal system to the Community legal system of rights and obligations arising under the Treaty carries with it a permanent limitation of their sovereign rights ... " By 1970, in the Internationale Handelsgesellschaft case, the European Court had declared its view that Community law should take precedence even over the constitutional laws of the Member States -- including basic entrenched laws guaranteeing fundamental rights.

When we joined the EEC in 1973


These basic principles were well established in Community law before the UK joined the EEC at the beginning of 1973. The European Communities Act 1972 was passed through Parliament in order to allow the UK to join, and two of its key provisions gave effect within the United Kingdom to the so-called "direct effect" of Community law, and the doctrine that that law has primacy over other laws.

Section 2(1) of the 1972 Act says that rights arising from the EU treaties and under the system of law under the treaties are to be enforced and followed in UK courts: "2 (1) All such rights, powers, liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising by or under the Treaties, and all such remedies and procedures from time to time provided for by or under the Treaties, as in accordance with the Treaties are without further enactment to be given legal effect or used in the United Kingdom shall be recognised and available in law, and be enforced, allowed and followed accordingly; ..." Another and even more fundamental provision is contained in subsection 2(4), and this reads: "(4) ... any enactment passed or to be passed, other than one contained in this part of this Act, shall be construed and have effect subject to the foregoing provisions of this section;"
The implications of these provisions in the 1972 Act and the doctrine of primacy of Community law do not seem to have been fully understood or appreciated by many politicians until they were graphically illustrated in the Factortame case

That case was prompted by Spanish fishing interests who registered a UK off-the-shelf company called 'Factortame Ltd' and used that nominally British company to register fishing vessels under the British flag so they could then fish against the UK quota under the Common Fisheries Policy. Parliament passed the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 which placed restictions on the registration of vessels under the British flag when the companies owning them were not actually British owned or controlled.

Factortame challenged these parts of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 as incompatible with Community law and asked for an interim order suspending the Act. The case went to the UK's highest court, the House of Lords, where Lord Bridge said that the effect of section 2(4) of the 1972 Act (quoted above) was that later Act of Parliament such as the 1988 Act would be disapplied if they were inconsistent with rights under Community law: R (Factortame) v Sec of State for Transport [1990] AC 85 at 140B-D. The Lords however were doubtful whether that gave UK courts the power to suspend Acts of Parliament on an interim basis and referred the question of whether they should have such a power as a matter of Community law to the ECJ, who ruled (Case 213/89; [1990] 3 CMLR 1 at 30): "a national court which, in a case before it concerning Community law, considers that the sole obstacle which precludes it from granting interim relief is a rule of national law must set aside that rule." The effect of the doctrine of primacy of Community law as illustrated by the Factortame case were explained in graphic terms by Mr Justice Hoffmann in Stoke on Trent v. B & Q [1990] 3 CMLR 31 at 34 in the following terms: "The Treaty of Rome is the supreme law of this country, taking precedence over Acts of Parliament. Our entry into the Community meant that (subject to our undoubted but probably theoretical right to withdraw from the Community altogether) Parliament surrendered its sovereign right to legislate contrary to the Treaty on the matters of social and economic policy which it regulated."
 
Continued:

The ECJ further advances its powers

Having secured the basic principles that Community law penetrates inside the legal systems of Member States and takes precedence over all national laws in the courts of the Member States, the ECJ went on to build its powers further after our entry in 1973.

In the 1987 Foto-Frost case, the European Court ruled that national courts had no power to question the validity Community measures and reserved that power exclusively to itself, even though there was nothing in the Treaty or in general principles of international law which would require states to recognise the validity of acts which are outside the powers conferred by the Treaty.

The EEC was (mistakenly) regarded as just the "common market" by many people in this country and during the 1976 referendum campaign it was presented almost exclusively in those terms. But the ECJt made it more and more clear that it regarded a European common market not as an end in itself, but simply a means to a greater end.

The court spelled out its thinking in 1992 in the European Economic Area Agreement Case:
"An international treaty is to be interpreted not only on the basis of its wording, but in the light of its objectives. ... The Rome Treaty aims to achieve economic integration leading to the establishment of an internal market and economic and monetary union. Article 1 of the Single European Act makes it clear that the objective of all the Community treaties is to contribute together to making concrete progress towards European unity. It follows from the foregoing that the provisions of the Rome Treaty on free movement and competition, far from being an end in themselves, are only means for attaining those objectives. ... As the Court of Justice has consistently held, the Community treaties established a new legal order for the benefit of which the States have limited their sovereign rights, in ever wider fields, and the subjects of which comprise not only the member-States but also their nationals." (emphasis added) In the last sentence, the important change in wording from the 1963 Van Gend case should be noted. By 1992, “limited fields” had become “ever wider fields”, reflecting the Court’s endorsement of the doctrine that there can only ever be a one-way transfer of powers from the member states to the centre.

The Court has also expanded the powers of the Community/EU over the external relations of the member states. It developed a doctrine of implied external competence - that the Community had power to make external agreements relating to fields over which it had acquired internal competence. Furthermore, under this doctrine, the member states lose their own powers to conclude international agreements relating to areas of policy over which the Community (now EU) has attained an internal competence.

Whilst the ECJ has liberalised the internal market, it has often used its growing powers over the external trade of the member states in a way which inhibits the liberalisation of trade across the external borders of the EU.

In the 1998 Silhouette case, it interpreted the Trade Marks Directive as requiring member states to prohibit so-called “parallel imports” of genuine trade marked goods from non-member states when the proprietor of the mark has not consented to the marketing of his goods within the Community. This enables trade mark proprietors to prevent the importation of their own genuine goods into the EU from other countries where they have placed them on the market (e.g. Levi jeans in the USA), so enabling them to charge consumers within the EU a higher price than in other markets.

Similarly, in the field of regulations and technical standards, the ECJ has ruled in the 1999 Agrochemicals case that the UK is prohibited by EU law from licensing “parallel imports” from non-EU countries, even though the products are identical to agrochemicals licensed inside the EU and made by the same manufacturer.

The rationale of this “fortress Europe” mentality is baffling, and is particularly painful for a global trading nation such as the United Kingdom.

ECJ overcomes national vetoes by creative "interpretation"


Where the onward progress of European integration has been blocked by national vetoes, the Court has been willing to re-interpret the Treaty to make up for the lack of progress on the legislative front. In a whole series of tax cases, the Court invoked the general clauses of the Treaty on non-discrimination to strike down national tax legislation. An important example is the 2002 Lankhorst-Hohorst case on tax credits on payments by a subsidiary to its parent in another member state. What is significant is that the Court departed from its earlier cases which had decided that such arrangements were compatible with the Treaty.

The Treaty had not changed, but its meaning, according to the Court, had. Thus, the effective harmonisation of direct taxes proceeds step by step at the hands of the Court despite the UK’s theoretical veto on this area under the Treaty. The problem now is that ECJ's case law in this area makes it very difficult for national legislation effectively to tax the activities of multi-national companies who use tax avoidance structures set up for example under Luxembourg law.

In a 2005 environmental protection case, the Court decided that the EC could, under its first-pillar supranational law-making powers, specify and impose criminal offences and penalties in the very wide fields where the EC had an existing competence. The remarkable thing about this decision is that, if it is right, the EEC had these powers over criminal law from the day the Treaty of Rome was signed on 25 March 1957.

Yet if this had been suggested to those who signed the Treaty in 1957, or to those who signed Britain’s accession treaty in 1972, they would have laughed.

The ongoing process of expansion of powers by 'interpretation'


By looking back over time, we can see how powerful has been the effect of the rolling process of the ECJ's re-interpretation of the European Treaties, coupled with the doctrines of direct effect and primacy.

In more recent years, the ECJ has further extended the reach and scope of the EU law and of its own powers. Its most powerful new weapon in doing so is now the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

We shall be explaining how the court has made use of that Charter, and how it has effectively castrated the "opt out" with the UK thought it was getting from the effects of that Charter, in a further article.

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/eulaw-ecj-primacy.shtml
 
My mother is 95 and she was 12 when Hitler came to power, don't think maths is your strong point.

My Dad is 80 next month he was born in 1936 his uncle was killed fighting to retake Caan and he was bombed during the war. Go on tell me again how stupid and racist he is because he voted leave which he did like most of the people of his generation and your mothers.
 
My Dad is 80 next month he was born in 1936 his uncle was killed fighting to retake Caan and he was bombed during the war. Go on tell me again how stupid and racist he is because he voted leave which he did like most of the people of his generation and your mothers.
Not sure this competitive comparing of our family histories and war legacy is that helpful. My late grandfather was a POW in Germany. The older generation largely voted out cos they still see Britain through some rose-tinted Commonwealth prism and view Europe with distrust given the war and or rationing memories, depending on their age.
My other grandfather was essential industries, being a crane operator on the docks in Hull. He saw friends die and Hull was one of the worst bombed cities in the war. He was my granddad, but he was racist- my mum had to slap him down when he made a load of comments about my brother's then mixed race girlfriend- he didn't survive to see me marry a Mauritian. A lot of that generation were and are racist, war heroes or not.
 
One Brexiteer's view - got as far as the "1976 referendum campaign" - shame I voted in the 1975 referendum

So you read, what, nearly two-thirds of the article? Perhaps you or Devilish would like to refute his points, or those concerns raised in the Guardian article?
 
My Dad is 80 next month he was born in 1936 his uncle was killed fighting to retake Caan and he was bombed during the war. Go on tell me again how stupid and racist he is because he voted leave which he did like most of the people of his generation and your mothers.

Speaking in general, I don't see how being part of the WWII generation in any way means people can't be stupid and racist or vote along those lines.

Which isn't to say Leavers voted that way because they're racist. Just that being involved in a World War is irrelevant.
 
Are you on a wind up Don't Kill Bill?

If not, who made you the spokesman for the 'Brexit underclass' (what a fecking horrible term btw for whoever coined that).

You are being a complete ass for no real reason to multiple posters.

Hang on a minute they are quoting me and I am responding to the alerts and I am sorry if I offend them but when people in this thread say they don't understand the Brexit vote and its quite obvious to me why what do want me to do?
 
There are small short lived marsupial mice who have never seen anywhere apart from the Simpson Desert who know Brexit is a silly idea.

Did they speak to you in squeaks or was it a telepathic meeting of equal minds?

It is great to know where you get your thinking from and we will adjust our opinion of your opinion accordingly. What do the marsupial mice say about Isis because I think we should base the entire western world's response on their insight given to you as the mouse minded marsupial champion of the world.
 
Speaking in general, I don't see how being part of the WWII generation in any way means people can't be stupid and racist or vote along those lines.

Which isn't to say Leavers voted that way because they're racist. Just that being involved in a World War is irrelevant.

But what seems to be forgotten in all this inter-generational debate, is that people who agreed with an economic project in 1975, are very much entitled to disagree with its political evolution 40-years later. They may well have observed over time that the EU is not to be trusted, and has centralised to a point beyond which they are comfortable. A person in the late-teens or early-20s simply doesn't have this perspective.

Which isn't to say that people can't be set n their ways on impulse; i had a minor debate about cycling lanes with my father just last night. Although we did all agree that British cyclists tend to be less considerate than those encountered in Amsterdam. But i digress.
 
Go on I'll keep up with your pretence, highly amusing watching you dig a hole for yourself every time you post.

Can you tell me whereabouts in the UK you live.

Three months might seem a long long time for a chil

You ought to tell all the other Brit expats and non-British people that they don't know what they're talking about either. Poor old Stan's lived in Holland for about 20 years I believe, he hasn't got a clue either.

People like us don't have access to the internet or information, we don't have families who live in the UK, we have no knowledge of what goes on in the world.

You wise people who have lived all over Britain and know about every aspect of British life can certainly teach us a few things, or do you get your information from the Daily Mail

You move away and it is a given you can't come back because the place you left changes. I thought that was commonly understood.That is the point I am making about you. You left and we changed and you don't like it because the Uk should be forever exactly the way you left it. Sorry it doesn't work that way.
 
But what seems to be forgotten in all this inter-generational debate, is that people who agreed with an economic project in 1975, are very much entitled to disagree with its political evolution 40-years later. They may well have observed over time that the EU is not to be trusted, and has centralised to a point beyond which they are comfortable. A person in the late-teens or early-20s simply doesn't have this perspective.

Which isn't to say that people can't be set n their ways on impulse; i had a minor debate about cycling lanes with my father just last night. Although we did all agree that British cyclists tend to be less considerate than those encountered in Amsterdam. But i digress.
The cycle path layout around the main Vauxhall roundabout over the bridge is a menace- you have to cross the cycle path and it causes indignation on both sides. Seriously ill-designed.

Can you really compare what was voted for in 1975 with what the EU has morphed to be? You've had Thatcher, Blair and Cameron all renegotiate our terms with the organisation in the intervening years.
 
Did they speak to you in squeaks or was it a telepathic meeting of equal minds?

It is great to know where you get your thinking from and we will adjust our opinion of your opinion accordingly. What do the marsupial mice say about Isis because I think we should base the entire western world's response on their insight given to you as the mouse minded marsupial champion of the world.

It's the way you tell em.

And to be pedantic marsupial mice don't squeak.
 
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The cycle path layout around the main Vauxhall roundabout over the bridge is a menace- you have to cross the cycle path and it causes indignation on both sides. Seriously ill-designed.

Can you really compare what was voted for in 1975 with what the EU has morphed to be? You've had Thatcher, Blair and Cameron all renegotiate our terms with the organisation in the intervening years.

Near to me they are replacing an existing bus lane with a cycle lane. Of course the bust stops remain in the same place, meaning that Mr and Mrs Push Bike have tow ait behind a double-decker. Yet will they do that in practice? When i was by the Embankment the other week the cyclists were speeding past in deadly silence; in Amsterdam, they signal if a pedestrian is close.

I would assert that a predominantly trade based agreement continues to be what the UK would favour, so the EU's various political evolutions are of crucial importance. If Labour and the Tories hadn't resorted to deception in he past, the public could have examined these developments one stage at a time.
 
Not sure this competitive comparing of our family histories and war legacy is that helpful. My late grandfather was a POW in Germany. The older generation largely voted out cos they still see Britain through some rose-tinted Commonwealth prism and view Europe with distrust given the war and or rationing memories, depending on their age.
My other grandfather was essential industries, being a crane operator on the docks in Hull. He saw friends die and Hull was one of the worst bombed cities in the war. He was my granddad, but he was racist- my mum had to slap him down when he made a load of comments about my brother's then mixed race girlfriend- he didn't survive to see me marry a Mauritian. A lot of that generation were and are racist, war heroes or not.

I made the point that the majority of people of that generation voted brexit. I think that is true, if I am wrong you can show me the breakdown that says otherwise, can you do that?

I made the point versus someone who said voting brexit was like voting for Hitler. Do you believe that because I don't, and neither do the generation which stopped him?

lots of stupid posters then talk shite about how old people are who fought in the war and how few of them there are etc etc. This thread is really full of people who can't follow an argument.
 
My Dad is 80 next month he was born in 1936 his uncle was killed fighting to retake Caan and he was bombed during the war. Go on tell me again how stupid and racist he is because he voted leave which he did like most of the people of his generation and your mothers.

My father and my grandfather were lovely people, salt of the earth, who fought in 2 world wars. But they held various views, probably simply a product of their times, that were to varying degrees racist and stupid. You don't get a pass because of age or past input. And this land of hope and glory, it was all great when we had an empire rubbish is just that, rubbish. And in the past.

Not sure how relevant it is but as we are playing the comparative family story game I also had an Uncle (or perhaps great Uncle) who had ace war stories except they were obviously all made up as we knew he was in the catering core and never served overseas. We called him Biggles and he didn't like Indian people that much as the food was too spicy for him.
 
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I made the point versus someone who said voting brexit was like voting for Hitler.

Only in that is a stupid thing to do that won't end well after ill-founded propaganda induced early enthusiasm.
 
My father and my grandfather were lovely people, salt of the earth, who fought in 2 world wars. But they held various views, probably simply a product of their times, that were to varying degrees racist and stupid. You don't get a pass because of age or past input. And this land of hope and glory, it was all great when we had an empire rubbish is just that, rubbish. And in the past.

All true and I wouldn't disagree except when people say voting Brexit is like voting for Hitler. Do you think it is because I don't and neither did the people who fought against him?
 
Answered above. No. Not in any meaningful way. More like voting for trump. A really really bad idea but not really comparable to voting a bloke in who will start a world war with added genocide.
 
My Dad is 80 next month he was born in 1936 his uncle was killed fighting to retake Caan and he was bombed during the war. Go on tell me again how stupid and racist he is because he voted leave which he did like most of the people of his generation and your mothers.

So basically he was one of those generations who enjoyed free tertiary education, cheap housing, a pension and a stable job only to make sure that the people in the next generations won't have that. He saw with his very eyes how EEC/EU membership turned a country which needed a bailout from the IMF into a top economy and yet, he still voted against it.

I hope he'll live another 40 years to enjoy the joys of Brexit in full (I really do). However we both know that he won't foot the consequences of this decision wouldn't he?
 
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But what seems to be forgotten in all this inter-generational debate, is that people who agreed with an economic project in 1975, are very much entitled to disagree with its political evolution 40-years later. They may well have observed over time that the EU is not to be trusted, and has centralised to a point beyond which they are comfortable. A person in the late-teens or early-20s simply doesn't have this perspective.

Which isn't to say that people can't be set n their ways on impulse; i had a minor debate about cycling lanes with my father just last night. Although we did all agree that British cyclists tend to be less considerate than those encountered in Amsterdam. But i digress.
What about the alternative viewpoint that the older generations as they would have been back then voted in favour of a collaborative EU because of the atrocities that had happened a few decades previous and ongoing tensions?

The majority of people below 40 voted in favour of Remain, that is a fact. The older generation we have today, who remember would have been the younger generation in 1975, have benefited the most out of a developing Britain of any generation to date. The feeling among many young people is that they have used and abused society to its maximum potential and are continuing to vote selfishly out of a blinded view that immigrants are saturating public services, taking jobs and property.

Its widely known that the ageing population (requiring more regular and intensive provisions), and not immigrants, are the most significant drain on resources and funding for services as the NHS, housing and public transport. In many instances it's actually immigrants who are helping to keep the services afloat.

Do you accept, that from a general perspective, immigration was the primary reason for voting Brexit? And if so, can you not see why that is such a conflicted position? Especially for the older generations.
 
My mother-in-law (also 80) was in China when the 1939-45 war started, as her father was a merchant seaman. Her father died unexpectedly and as the rest of the family tried to escape back to the UK, they were caught and she was interned in a Japanese POW camp, which has adversely affected her health all her life. She missed out on education and her mother never recovered from the trauma. She voted remain.

Witnessing and experiencing the atrocities of war doesn't make voting leave any more logical.
 
People, by and large, tend to fall into this trap of believing that world was at its peak when they were in the prime of their lives.

I was watching a documentary about housing in the UK in the 1930s. Poor people were living in houses that were falling down, living among rats and sharing one toilet among four families. Losing children through disease because of these squalid conditions was not uncommon.

I'm not exactly sure what was so great about Britain then.
 
People, by and large, tend to fall into this trap of believing that world was at its peak when they were in the prime of their lives.

I was watching a documentary about housing in the UK in the 1930s. Poor people were living in houses that were falling down, living among rats and sharing one toilet among four families. Losing children through disease because of these squalid conditions was not uncommon.

I'm not exactly sure what was so great about Britain then.
Why are the 1930's relevant?
 
Just as an example of how shite it was in this country for a lot of people in an era when Britain was supposedly so great i.e. the empire days.

My point is that people look back with rose tinted spectacles.
I think people felt there was good "community spirit". That can colour your memories.
 
"Just over 67% of voters supported the Labour government's campaign to stay in the EEC"

Amusing

Even more amusing I voted Labour in the October 1974 GE (the only time). My father voted Tory and also voted for the EEC. As I have said before this is not about party politics. All those of my family that voted Leave in the latest referendum always vote Labour. Even more amusing. Pretty sure the Nissan workers in Sunderland don't normally vote Conservative.
 
So you read, what, nearly two-thirds of the article? Perhaps you or Devilish would like to refute his points, or those concerns raised in the Guardian article?

If he can't even get a basic common knowledge date right, what says that the rest of his article is accurate.
The Guardian article is one person's opinion from 2010.

However, this is beside the point.

I am no lawyer but I do know about trade and finance which is the point of most of my posts in this thread.
My point about legal issues is to know what specific laws affect the day to day life of a citizen of the UK which would be better if the UK is outside the EU.

Have been asking this since the original thread. Name just ten laws that worsen the life of a UK citizen because the UK is in the EU.
So far no-one has been able to name one.

Not being a legal expert I would like to know what specifically is damaging for a UK citizen.
 
My Dad is 80 next month he was born in 1936 his uncle was killed fighting to retake Caan and he was bombed during the war. Go on tell me again how stupid and racist he is because he voted leave which he did like most of the people of his generation and your mothers.

When did I say he was stupid and racist. You said that the people who fought in the war were the ones that voted for Brexit.
My point if you read it again was that the people who did fight in the war would be very old now and not too many would be about. It was your maths I was questioning.
My father was 18 when he volunteered to join the RAF in 1941. He was 22 when the war finished. If he was still alive he would be 93 now.
They lived around the Surrey Docks area in London during the war and constant bombing from the Germans, many of their friends and family lost their lives in the Blitz.
My mother worked at the Woolwich Arsenal arnaments factory. One day she had a day off, she went back to work the next day and the whole team she worked with had been killed in a bombing raid. She has a hatred for Germans.

Do we want to return to times like those. Unify people , break down the barriers of ignorance and misunderstanding, this is a step in the wrong direction.
 
You move away and it is a given you can't come back because the place you left changes. I thought that was commonly understood.That is the point I am making about you. You left and we changed and you don't like it because the Uk should be forever exactly the way you left it. Sorry it doesn't work that way.

Why can't I come back even though I don't want to come back. One of the reasons I left was because I didn't like it as it was when I did leave. However, it doesn't mean that I haven't been to the UK since. Like Stan he goes back quite regularly. I speak to my family living in the UK all the time. I can watch BBC and Sky News on the TV, I can read articles and information on line.

I was MD of two UK companies and travelled around Europe and other parts of the world with my job. I was in contact with the companies in the UK dozens of times a day.
We don't all live in a bubble. I've never been to Marseille, but I live in France, this means nothing. You may live in the south and have no idea what it's like to live in Newcastle for instance. What makes you so expert about the UK more than anyone else.