Central midfield this season...

Pogue Mahone

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Originally made this comment in the Berbatov thread but it's a slow day so feck it, might as well start a new thread.

There's been a lot of talk about us lacking attacking fluency this season and I'm inclined to agree with that. The obvious scape-goat is Berbatov, with Ronaldo also being implicated, due to a perceived lack of application, combined with him (allegedly) being played in a different position.

Does anyone else think we are lacking fluency due to the lack of a settled and on-form central midfield?

  • Giggs has been sensational and has been at the heart of some of our best football this season but is constantly in and out of the team, which just has to be disruptive to his central midfield partners.

  • Paul Scholes has looked magnificent in patches but distinctly mediocre at times too (obviously not helped by his long-term injury)

  • Anderson is having a bit of a second season syndrome and - up until the Fulham game - was the only CM who feature in all 5 of our defeats this season (obviously not helped by his long-term injury)

  • Carrick and Fletcher are clearly our best midfield pairing, as proven by the fact that our record with them in midfield is superb. We've started 7 league games (out of 29 :eek:) with a Carrick-Fletcher central midfield pairing, we've won 6 and drawn 1, scored 11 and conceded 1 (the VdS howler away to Newcastle) Our most impressive team performance of the season came with these two playing together (in the San Siro)

IMO the midfield is critically important to how the team plays. Fast, early, accurate passes into the feet of the likes of Berbatov and Rooney are what they thrive on. Similarly, Scholes' sweeping cross-field passes are meat and drink to a winger like Ronaldo.

As it stands, the stuttering midfield means that hard-working players like Rooney and Tevez are generally escaping criticism, while flair players like Berbatov and Ronaldo are getting dog's abuse, despite the fact that the whole team is clearly a good bit short of it's fluent best. Our defence has been immense and, to be fair, our midfield deserves a lot of credit for providing them with excellent protection (especially Michael Carrick, during our run of clean sheets) but I think the lack of a settled midfield has been a big factor in our (relative) lack of goals this season. We've only occasionally got into a really good groove in the middle of the park.

If Fletcher and Carrick can start the next 5 or 6 league games on the trot I think we'll see a vastly improved team performance, with individual players like Berbatov and Ronaldo suddenly looking much more potent.

Or has our midfield been absolutely fine and the only problems are purely up front / on the wings?

Discuss.
 
I agree, Fletcher and Carrick is the way forward.
 
for me its only the lack of goals from centre midfield that has been missing this season (i´m sure some stattos will disprove this).
we need someone to step up and start doing those old style robson/keane/scholes of 5 years ago bursting into the box runs!!
 
Unfortunately, this is the next step towards the end for Giggs and Scholes.

I'm welling up.
 
but where do you fit giggs? id certanly play him in any european games from now til hopefully the final or at least the semis, theres just some games he's made for. if berb doesnt make villa id love to see giggs sat in front of fletcher and carrick with ronaldo and park on the wings
 
Good post Pogue but is it honestly going to change?

Fergie has been rotating all season due to the amount of fixtures we've had...and after this international break we play Porto 2 days after we play a vital game against Villa.

I agree that players like Berbatov and Ronaldo have been taking the stick but I think it's justified in parts. No matter what midfield we play, there should be more of an effort for the likes of Berbatov to actually do something in a game, like he's paid to do.
 
And no, our midfield is not all that fine.

I've said it before and got ridiculed, but I'd say it again, our midfield lack a certain starter, a "super star" if I were to use a muppet's term. Our enormous pool of midfielders is more about quantity than quality, if I'm being harsh.

I thought Carrick was growing into being a certain starter, an ever present, obviously Fergie thinks differently what with benching him several times the last few weeks.
 
Inquest time at the caf, ain't it?

Central midfield is not our strongest area and hasn't been for some time, but we have some very good players there. I think Carrick, Giggs, Fletcher and Scholes will have enough for the rest of the season. Would like to see us settle the selection down more now, mainly going for Carrick and one other - Giggs for the easier games, Fletcher for the tougher ones.
 
I thought the constant changes would end up catching up with us, we've been pretty disjointed throughout the season if you think about it. First with injuries then with unforced changes. I'd like to see a more settled side in the up and coming games to try get some continuity, if we do I'm sure we'll push on.
 
Great post mate:

We're in an awkward stage, i'd like to call it transition but not much has changed from last season minus Fletcher's influence and Gibson seeing time.

Really we've got 2 aging guys, 2 youngsters who need development, and Carrick & Fletcher. Finding time for all of them seems to be a priority for Fergie but it's not always been the most beneficial.

Your statement of Fletcher & Carrick playing in this next bit of run is spot on though.
 
jdmufc said:
for me its only the lack of goals from centre midfield that has been missing this season (i´m sure some stattos will disprove this).
we need someone to step up and start doing those old style robson/keane/scholes of 5 years ago bursting into the box runs!!
Click to expand...

I thought we've done that better this season than the last two.

Last season's league goals record from the midfield:

Carrick - 2
Scholes - 1
Fletcher - 0
Anderson - 0
Hargreaves - 2

Total - 5

This season:

Carrick - 2
Scholes - 1
Fletcher - 3
Anderson - 0
Total - 6
Hargreaves - 0

And that's with Hargreaves out for pretty much the whole season this year.
 
I don't have an issue with the quality of midfielders we have, the problem lies for me in the constant changing. None of the players have really managed to get a partnership. And as good as the players are, the changes will be dispruptive I'm sure.

In terms of form over the season. I'd have to think that a Carrick - Fletcher pairing is the best way to go.
 
sincher said:
Inquest time at the caf, ain't it?

Central midfield is not our strongest area and hasn't been for some time, but we have some very good players there. I think Carrick, Giggs, Fletcher and Scholes will have enough for the rest of the season. Would like to see us settle the selection down more now, mainly going for Carrick and one other - Giggs for the easier games, Fletcher for the tougher ones.
Click to expand...

I think we should step away from the rotation and use Giggs from the bench when needed.
 
A little from column A, a little from column B.

Everyone has been impressed at how awesome Fletch has been this season, and rightly so, but the thing that strikes me the most is the extent to which we've rotated the midfield about. Carrick - Anderson, Carrick - Fletcher, Carrick - Scholes, Scholes - Giggs, Scholes - Fletcher, Scholes - Anderson, Fletcher - Giggs, Fletcher - Anderson are all combinations that we've seen and have worked with varying success. For my money our success in 06/07 was in large part down to a distinctly first choice midfield parternship in Scholes - Carrick that got a large run of games together and ran the show.

Carrick - Fletcher has been our strongest but by the same token it doesn't really strike as world class, or even very creative (although this perception may have something to do with being spoiled by a particular ginger prince for some time now). It is very much a ball winning midfield and as such relies heavily on the input of the wide players and the players up front. As they're not clicking right now, and we have Rooney and most probably Berbatov out for the next game, I wouldn't be surprised if we started with Fletcher - Giggs to compensate for this (although that said Giggs might start up front).
 
When Giggs and Scholes go we could be in a bit of trouble with our midfield. I made a post about this a while back and people made some good points in it:

https://www.redcafe.net/f6/do-we-have-midfield-problem-239883/

In terms of fluency it's one of those things that is very difficult to solve and will likely spontaneously resolve itself - probably with a couple of players hitting top form.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Originally made this comment in the Berbatov thread but it's a slow day so feck it, might as well start a new thread.

There's been a lot of talk about us lacking attacking fluency this season and I'm inclined to agree with that. The obvious scape-goat is Berbatov, with Ronaldo also being implicated, due to a perceived lack of application, combined with him (allegedly) being played in a different position.

Does anyone else think we are lacking fluency due to the lack of a settled and on-form central midfield?

  • Giggs has been sensational and has been at the heart of some of our best football this season but is constantly in and out of the team, which just has to be disruptive to his central midfield partners.

  • Paul Scholes has looked magnificent in patches but distinctly mediocre at times too (obviously not helped by his long-term injury)

  • Anderson is having a bit of a second season syndrome and - up until the Fulham game - was the only CM who feature in all 5 of our defeats this season (obviously not helped by his long-term injury)

  • Carrick and Fletcher are clearly our best midfield pairing, as proven by the fact that our record with them in midfield is superb. We've started 7 league games (out of 29 :eek:) with a Carrick-Fletcher central midfield pairing, we've won 6 and drawn 1, scored 11 and conceded 1 (the VdS howler away to Newcastle) Our most impressive team performance of the season came with these two playing together (in the San Siro)

IMO the midfield is critically important to how the team plays. Fast, early, accurate passes into the feet of the likes of Berbatov and Rooney are what they thrive on. Similarly, Scholes' sweeping cross-field passes are meat and drink to a winger like Ronaldo.

As it stands, the stuttering midfield means that hard-working players like Rooney and Tevez are generally escaping criticism, while flair players like Berbatov and Ronaldo are getting dog's abuse, despite the fact that the whole team is clearly a good bit short of it's fluent best. Our defence has been immense and, to be fair, our midfield deserves a lot of credit for providing them with excellent protection (especially Michael Carrick, during our run of clean sheets) but I think the lack of a settled midfield has been a big factor in our (relative) lack of goals this season. We've only occasionally got into a really good groove in the middle of the park.

If Fletcher and Carrick can start the next 5 or 6 league games on the trot I think we'll see a vastly improved team performance, with individual players like Berbatov and Ronaldo suddenly looking much more potent.

Or has our midfield been absolutely fine and the only problems are purely up front / on the wings?

Discuss.
Click to expand...
We are likely to continue to have an unsettled midfield until Scholes and Giggs call it a day. Too good to leave out, can't play every game. I think there will be recruitment in that position over the summer.
 
Brwned said:
I thought we've done that better this season than the last two.

Last season's league goals record from the midfield:

Carrick - 2
Scholes - 1
Fletcher - 0
Anderson - 0
Hargreaves - 2

Total - 5

This season:

Carrick - 2
Scholes - 1
Fletcher - 3
Anderson - 0
Total - 6
Hargreaves - 0

And that's with Hargreaves out for pretty much the whole season this year.
Click to expand...

Is that including Hargreaves free kicks?
 
Brwned said:
I thought we've done that better this season than the last two.

Last season's league goals record from the midfield:

Carrick - 2
Scholes - 1
Fletcher - 0
Anderson - 0
Hargreaves - 2

Total - 5

This season:

Carrick - 2
Scholes - 1
Fletcher - 3
Anderson - 0
Total - 6
Hargreaves - 0

And that's with Hargreaves out for pretty much the whole season this year.
Click to expand...

Gibson scored in the league?

I might be horribly wrong.
 
CptMarvel said:
I think we should step away from the rotation and use Giggs from the bench when needed.
Click to expand...

Fair opinion.

I see Carrick and Fletcher as a steady but fairly pedestrian sort of midfield. OK if the rest of the team is set up to be adventurous, but a bit lacking in penetration otherwise (though Fletcher's efforts to get forward this season have been admirable).

My view is that Giggs' form this season has been very good, he offers more of a creative threat from midfield, and I think he's fit enough to play more often than not.
 
I reckon the last couple of games you've largely lost by being poor in CM. At the moment Carrick is the only one who really looks up to the job, Scholes is out of form, Giggs isn't really a CM, Fletcher is ordinary, and Anderson doesn't look like a CM either.
 
What has been killing us the last couple of weekends has been the idifferents players selection in midfield. All this rotation is making the team suffer at the back.

An unfit Anderson just back starting against Liverpool was a bad decision, then next weekend playing Giggs and Scholes as midfield with Fletcher as a Right winger when we all know Fulham use the counter to hit teams. Kinda silly if you got 4 goals a couple of weeks back by Playing fletcher and Carrick covering Fulham counters and attacking them with Rooney/Tevez who both started the match on the bench.

We have to play Fletcher and Carrick away from home and can use Giggs or Scholes to partner Carrick or Fletcher at home, it depends on the opposition but lets not rotate to much. Thats what will get us consistency.
 
Bilbo said:
We are likely to continue to have an unsettled midfield until Scholes and Giggs call it a day. Too good to leave out, can't play every game. I think there will be recruitment in that position over the summer.
Click to expand...

I think it's whether you think a settled midfield is more important than Giggs and Scholes starting. I think it is and that until they call it a day they will still have valuable contributions to make from the bench.
 
peterstorey said:
I reckon the last couple of games you've largely lost by being poor in CM. At the moment Carrick is the only one who really looks up to the job, Scholes is out of form, Giggs isn't really a CM, Fletcher is ordinary, and Anderson doesn't look like a CM either.
Click to expand...

Still, at least it's only a couple of games, rather than our whole season.
 
Privately I've thought since that Barca and Chelsea games in the CL last year that our central midfield isn't as good as a few that are out there. We do have the capacity to be dominated in that area against the top sides.

I've never voiced it on here though because it wouldn't have made for good discussion, in all likelihood.

We have excellent midfield players, but I think we lack a leader in there sometimes.
 
sincher said:
Fair opinion.

I see Carrick and Fletcher as a steady but fairly pedestrian sort of midfield. OK if the rest of the team is set up to be adventurous, but a bit lacking in penetration otherwise (though Fletcher's efforts to get forward this season have been admirable).

My view is that Giggs' form this season has been very good, he offers more of a creative threat from midfield, and I think he's fit enough to play more often than not.
Click to expand...

Seconded.
 
peterstorey said:
I reckon the last couple of games you've largely lost by being poor in CM. At the moment Carrick is the only one who really looks up to the job, Scholes is out of form, Giggs isn't really a CM, Fletcher is ordinary, and Anderson doesn't look like a CM either.
Click to expand...

Sounds about right to me. I think most of our midfielders would play better in a three man central midfield and that's part of the problem.
 
Given the qualities and shortcomings of the midfielders at our disposal, I reckon a complete change of formation from a midfield two to a 3 man central midfield will do us a world of good. At present we have good players like Carrick who need bundles of energy along side them to really flourish, Fletcher and Hargreaves- two players that can play a similar role but really need a creative partner like Carrick or Scholes (sadly this season hasn't been one of those for him), and Anderson or Giggs - Both full of energy, capable of carrying the ball in mdifield and dribbling past opposing players from central areas but defensively and positionally somewhat lacking (with Giggs is far better than Anderson in these instances).

A midfield three will mean a fast, dynamic three man attack with the likes of Rooney, Ronaldo and someone else other than Berbatov or Tevez, constantly swapping positions and causing mayhem.

The benefits of constantly playing with three mdifielders will mean a more or less settled side regardless of who we play.

A large number of memorable performances in the last few years have come with us employing a midfield three.
 
sincher said:
Fair opinion.

I see Carrick and Fletcher as a steady but fairly pedestrian sort of midfield. OK if the rest of the team is set up to be adventurous, but a bit lacking in penetration otherwise (though Fletcher's efforts to get forward this season have been admirable).

My view is that Giggs' form this season has been very good, he offers more of a creative threat from midfield, and I think he's fit enough to play more often than not.
Click to expand...

Maybe steady and pedestrian but also reliable and I don't think we lack adventure in attack. I don't know your opinion on Hargreaves but in an ideal world I'd have him as part of the two but that's for next season.
 
Eto'odinho said:
Given the qualities and shortcomings of the midfielders at our disposal, I reckon a complete change of formation from a midfield two to a 3 man central midfield will do us a world of good. At present we have good players like Carrick who need bundles of energy along side them to really flourish, Fletcher and Hargreaves- two players that can play a similar role but really need a creative partner like Carrick or Scholes (sadly this season hasn't been one of those for him), and Anderson or Giggs - Both full of energy, capable of carrying the ball in mdifield and dribbling past opposing players from central areas but defensively and positionally somewhat lacking (with Giggs is far better than Anderson in these instances).

A midfield three will mean a fast, dynamic three man attack with the likes of Rooney, Ronaldo and someone else other than Berbatov or Tevez, constantly swapping positions and causing mayhem.

The benefits of constantly playing with three mdifielders will mean a more or less settled side regardless of who we play.

A large number of memorable performances in the last few years have come with us employing a midfield three.
Click to expand...

So we just take Berbatov and Tevez out of the picture entirely and do what? Buy a new forward?
 
peterstorey said:
I reckon the last couple of games you've largely lost by being poor in CM. At the moment Carrick is the only one who really looks up to the job, Scholes is out of form, Giggs isn't really a CM, Fletcher is ordinary, and Anderson doesn't look like a CM either.
Click to expand...


I think you are being very kind - and you probably know it.
 
A few weeks ago we were getting wanked over left right and centre because SAF could chop and change the team at will and everyone was going out there and performing, regardless of who they were playing next to.

Its more about confidence I think. A settled midfield might help us to regain our confidence. But I dont see why something that has worked all season would now suddenly be the root cause of our problems.
 
A couple of seasons back, when Scholes was in his pomp, I reckon the Scholes-Carrick partnership was world class. Carrick has improved slightly since then but - unfortunately for us - this has coinicided with a decline in the form of Scholes, as age finally starts to catch up with him.

I'm probably a wee bit more optimistic than some in this thread in that I think the combination of Fletcher and Carrick (with Anderson and/or Hargreaves in the mix) is probably good enough, moving forwards.

Fletcher has improved immensely, season on season, for the last couple of years and I can see him blossoming into the really top class CM everyone could see he had the potential to be when he was just 16 years old. This season, Carrick has proven to all remaining doubters that he's a Manchester United player and even a blind man can see that Anderson is a midfield monster in embryo, with Hargreaves also a quality player to have in our squad.

The point of this thread is to highlight that we have had issues in CM this season. These issues were predictable enough (phasing out a genius like Scholes was always gonna cause a fe hiccups) but have generally been over-looked in favour of slating players who play in different areas of the pitch. I'm glad to see that most people are in agreement. I just hope that the Fletcher-Carrick combo can double their paltry 7 league starts by the end of this season.
 
Brwned said:
I thought we've done that better this season than the last two.

Last season's league goals record from the midfield:

Carrick - 2
Scholes - 1
Fletcher - 0
Anderson - 0
Hargreaves - 2

Total - 5

This season:

Carrick - 2
Scholes - 1
Fletcher - 3
Anderson - 0
Total - 6
Hargreaves - 0

And that's with Hargreaves out for pretty much the whole season this year.
Click to expand...

Didn't a couple of those fletcher ones come when he was playing on the wing at the start of the season though?
 
Simon Adebesi said:
A few weeks ago we were getting wanked over left right and centre because SAF could chop and change the team at will and everyone was going out there and performing, regardless of who they were playing next to.

Its more about confidence I think. A settled midfield might help us to regain our confidence. But I dont see why something that has worked all season would now suddenly be the root cause of our problems.
Click to expand...

How can you say it's "worked all season" whilst posting in another thread that you think our attacking football has lacked fluency all season?
 
You also have to remember that last season, with Tevez and Rooney up front, we had two players who would step back to augment the midfield. While Berbatov seems to enjoy playing deeper, he doesn't get involved in the same way, and a Rooney/Tevez can cover a multitude of sins in the centre of the park through work rate alone.

This season, with Rooney further forward, there's less of that going on. That means players like Carrick and Fletcher will often have one less option to pass to in there. That makes a difference too.
 
brophs said:
You also have to remember that last season, with Tevez and Rooney up front, we had two players who would step back to augment the midfield. While Berbatov seems to enjoy playing deeper, he doesn't get involved in the same way, and a Rooney/Tevez can cover a multitude of sins in the centre of the park through work rate alone.

This season, with Rooney further forward, there's less of that going on. That means players like Carrick and Fletcher will often have one less option to pass to in there. That makes a difference too.
Click to expand...

When those two players have played, they haven't looked short of options to pass to. The classice example being the San Siro, when they bossed midfield without Tevez or Rooney.

I just wish they'd played more.
 
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