Champions League - Quarter Finals
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The problem with the Bayern match were not the tactics but 2 individual mistakes in the first minutes that led to a 2:0. That was just poison. I guess the match plan of Pep was to get the match under control and in the offense be lucky to score anything, maybe even through a counter. After 10 minutes they were in the position that Porto could react and sit deeper - at the same time they still were so dangerous that you could not really risk to throw men forward.
Bayern often in the past had the luck to be in a similar position - Juve in the treble season when Alaba scored the 1:0 after some seconds. Donezk in the last round.
I do not put too much in the injury problems - we had similar matches in the past with them.
But there is still the chance to go through.
I do not know if Ribery comes back - but him for half an hour would be great. The problem is more that we play Saturday again and still do not have no bench to rest players - and the next match is Tuesday.
Bayern often in the past had the luck to be in a similar position - Juve in the treble season when Alaba scored the 1:0 after some seconds. Donezk in the last round.
I do not put too much in the injury problems - we had similar matches in the past with them.
But there is still the chance to go through.
I do not know if Ribery comes back - but him for half an hour would be great. The problem is more that we play Saturday again and still do not have no bench to rest players - and the next match is Tuesday.
@Blackwidow
Tactics mattered as well, Pep was schooled. It was clear Porto was instructed to press your CBs as much as humanely possible, and that played a (minor, so terrible they were) part in the mistakes. That posture was assumed in several moments of the game. Meanwhile we neutralized you by packing the middle with men, taking advantage of your lack of wingers and us having two excellent full-backs. Your goal only came because Alex Sandro was out of position, Casemiro challenge was very poor. Lopetegui got it spot on and did his homework. It looked like Porto players had the lesson a lot more prepared.
I expect a totally different story in the Allianz. We'll be playing a make-shift defence with two fringe players and another out of position. I can see us parking the bus or getting decimated. I don't know if we'll park the bus, as our manager is very proud of his style of play and even if we do, parking the bus won't guarantee success either, as Porto is a possession team and we're not used to it at all. I don't consider us favourites to go through yet (though am obviously a lot happier than I thought I would be by now).
On your other point, It's absolute non-sense to play Wednesday-Saturday-Tuesday at these stakes.
At least Bayern has some room to manoeuvre in the league, we're chasing Benfica and are playing them the weekend after next as well. That's 4 crucial games in 12 days, not even in the World Cup such is demanded of teams.
Tactics mattered as well, Pep was schooled. It was clear Porto was instructed to press your CBs as much as humanely possible, and that played a (minor, so terrible they were) part in the mistakes. That posture was assumed in several moments of the game. Meanwhile we neutralized you by packing the middle with men, taking advantage of your lack of wingers and us having two excellent full-backs. Your goal only came because Alex Sandro was out of position, Casemiro challenge was very poor. Lopetegui got it spot on and did his homework. It looked like Porto players had the lesson a lot more prepared.
I expect a totally different story in the Allianz. We'll be playing a make-shift defence with two fringe players and another out of position. I can see us parking the bus or getting decimated. I don't know if we'll park the bus, as our manager is very proud of his style of play and even if we do, parking the bus won't guarantee success either, as Porto is a possession team and we're not used to it at all. I don't consider us favourites to go through yet (though am obviously a lot happier than I thought I would be by now).
On your other point, It's absolute non-sense to play Wednesday-Saturday-Tuesday at these stakes.
At least Bayern has some room to manoeuvre in the league, we're chasing Benfica and are playing them the weekend after next as well. That's 4 crucial games in 12 days, not even in the World Cup such is demanded of teams.
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Irrespective of formation he moved the Bayern balance back towards possession when everyone else was moving towards counter (even Barca).
'Playing a load of shite on a Thursday night'... oh hang on, you didn't even make didn't even make thatShat on peter.
Hasn't Lahm said in the Kicker a few weeks ago that he doesn't want to play anymore as RB???
@Attila @Theafonis
Your team played well tonight. Do you reckon you have a realistic chance at winning the whole thing?
Your team played well tonight. Do you reckon you have a realistic chance at winning the whole thing?
My team was eliminated by PSG
Sounds like it's time for you to support PSG instead. Allez Paris Saint-Germain!
Lots of shit talking about Pep in this thread.
I don't know how much those massive individual errors made by Bayern defenders should really be seen as Pep's fault. They're still favorites to go through with Porto's very, very good fullbacks out for the game in Munich.
The Madrid Derby is impossible to pick. Real would be slight favorites but 1-1 will see Atletico through and that's extremely plausible, so I think that makes it a toss up. I'd bet on Atletico at this point because if there is only 1-2 goals in it they have that advantage and because Marcelo being out is a big loss at home.
Barca will presumably go through. PSG need to press, Verrati has to play even better than he did against Chelsea and they have to hope against hope that when Barca counter, at home, that they'll have an off day or Sirigu will do even better than Hart did in the same situation. Even then, it would be tough.
If Motta had played and Silva not gotten hurt, I think this first leg would have been different, as their backline would not have been so disorganized on the Neymar goal or soft on the Suarez brace.
I sort of fancy Monaco to beat Juventus, though Juve actually looked pacey on the break for once with Tevez as a 10, Morata up top and Pereyra trying to provide attacking width as a sort of support striker. Far cry from Iaquinta and Vucinic.
Monaco's attackers looked dangerous and though Juve can plan to sit back and hit them on the break, I think Monaco can play with patience, as they only need the one goal. A single injury anywhere but CB would hurt Juve badly. Everyone will pick Juve here after Monaco's poor performance at home against Arsenal and because Monaco are a counter-attacking team that will supposedly need to dominate play, but I could see 1-0 over 90 in a tight game, then winning it in extra time or penalties. Also, Pirlo at DM for an hour in too defensive a role might not suit him at this point.
The Madrid Derby is impossible to pick. Real would be slight favorites but 1-1 will see Atletico through and that's extremely plausible, so I think that makes it a toss up. I'd bet on Atletico at this point because if there is only 1-2 goals in it they have that advantage and because Marcelo being out is a big loss at home.
Barca will presumably go through. PSG need to press, Verrati has to play even better than he did against Chelsea and they have to hope against hope that when Barca counter, at home, that they'll have an off day or Sirigu will do even better than Hart did in the same situation. Even then, it would be tough.
If Motta had played and Silva not gotten hurt, I think this first leg would have been different, as their backline would not have been so disorganized on the Neymar goal or soft on the Suarez brace.
I sort of fancy Monaco to beat Juventus, though Juve actually looked pacey on the break for once with Tevez as a 10, Morata up top and Pereyra trying to provide attacking width as a sort of support striker. Far cry from Iaquinta and Vucinic.
Monaco's attackers looked dangerous and though Juve can plan to sit back and hit them on the break, I think Monaco can play with patience, as they only need the one goal. A single injury anywhere but CB would hurt Juve badly. Everyone will pick Juve here after Monaco's poor performance at home against Arsenal and because Monaco are a counter-attacking team that will supposedly need to dominate play, but I could see 1-0 over 90 in a tight game, then winning it in extra time or penalties. Also, Pirlo at DM for an hour in too defensive a role might not suit him at this point.
As soon as I saw the line-ups for the Porto vs Bayern game I thought Porto had a shot, their midfield was full of energy and Bayern's had two players who are getting on and a player who has been out for a long time, and of course Dante has looked dodgy for some time and in this game made sure no mistake went unmade.
Motta and Verratti were huge misses for PSG, I'm not sure how Neville though the latter not playing would help PSG, Verratti doesn't lack in workrate and despite his discipline issues PSG missed his bite and pressure in midfield, Rabbiot looked very ordinary and didn't get into Busquets and Rakatic nearly enough, only Matuidi was really giving them problems. The biggest problem though was that PSG didn't look confident that they could hurt Barca, their play lacked conviction until it was too late.
Motta and Verratti were huge misses for PSG, I'm not sure how Neville though the latter not playing would help PSG, Verratti doesn't lack in workrate and despite his discipline issues PSG missed his bite and pressure in midfield, Rabbiot looked very ordinary and didn't get into Busquets and Rakatic nearly enough, only Matuidi was really giving them problems. The biggest problem though was that PSG didn't look confident that they could hurt Barca, their play lacked conviction until it was too late.
Bayern reminded me of us a few months ago. Passing for the sake of it and going nowhere, individual mistakes at the back and very little pace going forward. Obviously doesn't help when two of the best wingers are out. But they really need to inject more pace in their team in the summer. Ribery and Robben are both in their 30s and will need replacing soon.
Uf you got us there all right.'Playing a load of shite on a Thursday night'... oh hang on, you didn't even make didn't even make that
I think Monaco have proven they are nobody's mugs and will not roll over for Juve, but I think the Old Lady will have just a bit too much. However Monaco have the building blocks in place of a good young side that can push on from this excellent CL campaign.
We have the best attack on the CL (tied with Bayern) and the 2nd best defense (tied with Juve and behind Atletico).
Also the only team unbeaten in the competition at the moment (Chelsea were knocked out without being beaten).
Also the only team unbeaten in the competition at the moment (Chelsea were knocked out without being beaten).
I think you'll go through.We have the best attack on the CL (tied with Bayern) and the 2nd best defense (tied with Juve and behind Atletico).
Also the only team unbeaten in the competition at the moment (Chelsea were knocked out without being beaten).
Well done Porto! Absolutely deserved win. They got it absolutely right - not only sit back in fear and let Bayern play but press high up the pitch. In such games (given the opponent has enough quality) Bayern always get into troubles.
I would still say chances are 50:50.
I would still say chances are 50:50.
What do you mean? My team was PSG as Barca, Bayern and Porto are our rivals.
I thought you were a Porto supporter.
It was only the 2nd victory of a Portuguese team against Bayern in 23 matches . First victory in Portugal, none in Germany (the other was in Viena).
On a side note, Muller accused us of parking the bus. We had more shots than them for feck sake. Probably pressed higher and during more time than most teams Bayern faced this season.
Every time a team manages to neutralize another the bus argument creeps in these days.
. First victory in Portugal, none in Germany (the other was in Viena).On a side note, Muller accused us of parking the bus. We had more shots than them for feck sake. Probably pressed higher and during more time than most teams Bayern faced this season.
Every time a team manages to neutralize another the bus argument creeps in these days.
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It was only the 2nd victory of a Portuguese team against Bayern in 23 matches
On a side note, Muller accused us of parking the bus. We had more shots than them for feck sake. Probably pressed higher and during more time than most teams Bayern faced this season.
Every time a team manages to neutralize another the bus argument creeps in these days.
Who will come in for Sandro and Danilo?
It's just that tedious sense of self-entitlement that some of the elite clubs have when the opposition defend well and don't leave themselves open to be sliced apart.It was only the 2nd victory of a Portuguese team against Bayern in 23 matches
On a side note, Muller accused us of parking the bus. We had more shots than them for feck sake. Probably pressed higher and during more time than most teams Bayern faced this season.
Every time a team manages to neutralize another the bus argument creeps in these days.
Most likely Martins Indi will play LB and Marcano will play CB. Fortunately Marcano has done well this season and had been playing plenty before Indi's return. Not too bad.
For Danilo, it will be Ricardo, a winger/RB in the Valencia mould, not very experienced in the position. I'm more concerned about this, particularly because Ribery is likely to return. Danilo has been a monster and I'm sure he could neutralize him, but I'm not really confident in Ricardo's defensive ability (not that I've seen much of it).
Anyone else think if Porto were playing a smaller team Neuer would have been given a straight red? Bit of a farcical decision to only book him.
I think it was just the typical 'too early' bullshit to be honest.
Fair point, early on in the game does seem to affect referees too. Complete nonsense anyway, Bayern were lucky they got out at 3-1.
Agreed, but the rule should be that if you make an honest attempt at the ball and you're not crazy late, a penalty and yellow card is enough. Crazy to think Bayern should play 88 minutes or whatever down a man and Porto get a penalty on a play where Neuer committed a non-malicious, unintentional foul where he even got some of the ball. If Neuer had just taken him out without a real shot at the ball to prevent a goal then fine, send him off.
I really think it's one of 2 rule changes that make too much sense not to happen, along with the idea of Penalties at the start of extra-time, the winner getting an Advantage/Half Goal and then 30 minutes played whereby the losing team knows they need to outscore the opponents.
Earliness doesn't always seem to affect referees to the same extent that big teams do. Let's not forget this happened in the previous round:
I must say I find the red card + penalty too harsh a decision, bordering on the ridiculous. It's a too disproportionate punishment in most circumstances. Neuer wasn't vile or malicious, just missed a challenge and committed a foul. In any other area of the pitch that would have been a yellow. As a goal-scoring chance, we got it back with a penalty, as a punishment for the foul, the yellow should be enough. If that happens outside the box, then fair-play, make it a red for denying a goal scoring chance as a free kick wouldn't have been nearly as good statistically.
But the duality in criteria is ire inducing. I hope it isn't worse at the Allianz, we've already been damaged in that decision - with repercussions on the next match as Neuer shouldn't be playing - and I don't have fond memories of refereeing the last time we played there.
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That had to do with the run of play, too. The two early goals were poison for the Bayern match as Porto did not need to do anything anymore but always was a thread with their offensives. It is difficult to get your offense going if you cannot risk anything defensively. In a more open match Lewa and Thomas could have been set in scene a lot more and you could have used their strengths - in that match that was very difficult. The wingers would have helped - if they would have been the solution? The match in Donezk was somehow similar so with total control in the back - and even with Ribery and Robben it was not better offensively.
It is not time for fireworks at Bayern right now with all the injuries. The only fully fit players in the last few weeks have been Lewa, Müller, Neuer, Bernat, Rafinha, Dante, Götze and Alonso. Lahm and Thiago just came back 2 weeks ago and take over more and more minutes - but aren't near the 100%. Boateng has muscle problems. How much you can risk Badstuber right now - especially as he is the only defensive sub - is questionable. A week ago against Leverkusen they talked that he can play only 10 minutes. Pizarro is only a bench decoration right now - partly he had 0 minutes in him.
The players came back from Porto at 3:30 p.m.. Tomorrow they have a training in the afternoon and go to Hoffenheim where they play Saturday afternoon. Much rotation is not possible for that. Gaudino, Weiser and maybe a Lucas Scholl can be thrown in - but that are the only ones.
Götze got a knock and will for sure be out Saturday but probably can make it Tuesday. Schweinsteiger and Ribery won't make the starting formation - but could get minutes on Tuesday, too.
On Tuesday a lot has to do with the run of play. It is not like they never had a 2:0 result before...
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The first goal...
Another referee would have given Bayern a freekick for a foul on Alonso...
I thought there'd have been more reaction on here to the Bayern loss but it seems a lot of people are making excuses for Pep.
For what do you want to blame him? He did not stand next to Alonso when he made the mistake - same with Dante. And he did not get the players injured who were missing. He could not even sub in another offensive...
I am with you mate, I think he is getting far too easy a ride. He has much to prove as a coach for me.. Europe is the proper test for a coach of a team like Bayern.
Coasting to league titles in the Bundesliga doesn't quite cut it for me in terms of achievement.
Just seeing the highlights now. David Luiz is brutal
Do all agree, that Neuer didnt touch the ball and that it was a foul?
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Yes.
I've seen someone argue he got to the ball but he didn't. That impression is because of the angle at which Martínez kicked the ball to the side, but that's because he did it with the outside of his foot. Watch the final seconds at around 1:28 in slow motion, certainly the spin of the ball would change if Neuer touched the ball.
Again? For what do you want to blame him? For individual mistakes of players? For the lack of possibilities because of the injuries the team has?
The squad he had yesterday
Goalkeepers:
Neuer, Reina, Lukic
Defenders:
Bernat, Rafinha, Dante, Weiser (a 20-year-old fullback with less than 10 Bundesliga appearances)
Boateng (had muscle problems lately, had to be subbed against Leverkusen, could not play Saturday)
Badstuber (was only able to play about 10 minutes last week - if Pep could play him instead of Dante he would!)
Midfield:
Alonso
Thiago, Lahm (both not fully fit for 90 minutes, Thiago came back two weeks ago from a year without football, Lahm was out more than 3 months)
Rode (without CL experience)
Gaudino (18-year-old, great technical level, but physically not on CL level)
Wingers:
None
Forwards
Lewandowski, Müller, Götze (who got a knock in the match and is out until next Tuesday)
Pizarro (sits on the bank for entertainment and decoration)
With this squad we fighted a 1:0 against Dortmund, won a 120-minute-plus-penalty-shootout-match against Leverkusen, won 3:0 against Frankfurt in the last two weeks.
With Pep in the recent 20 months we were guessing starting formations and tactics and about never were right. Right now you do not have to guess as there is just one possible formation.
Right now it is not about tactics - it is only survival and get over the next two weeks until some others come back unharmed.
The discussion is not about Neuer. It could have been a red card.
But - Martinez fouled Alonso before that.
And then we could start to talk about a not given penalty on Lewandowski.
But there is no sense in talking about "ifs". Let Neuer get a red card. We would have subbed in Pepe Reina for Götze who might have held the penalty. Bayern sits back with 10 man and might have gone counter attacking.
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Neville got called out on Twitter for calling Verratti a defensive liability. Defended himself by saying you need to watch him live to notice...
In general I just haven't been impressed when I see Bayern play. I don't see the same intensity and I get the fact that key individuals are injured, some are ageing etc but a managers job is to anticipate such issues and react accordingly. Perhaps he should be given one more summer to change things drastically and give the club a proper shake up but I just think he reminds me of Wenger in some aspects and is tactically flawed.. it worked brilliantly at Barcelona but he needs to be more adapable, pragmatic and just understand the game that bit better.
It will come with experience, I just hope he is self aware and knows where his faults lie and what he needs to improve on. The worst thing for him would be to blame the players and have some kind of god complex where he thinks he has cracked the philosophy of football and he can do nothing wrong.
Last year I thought they went backwards as a team in certain aspects of their game especially defensively - although I am sure stats will be on their side in terms of Bundesliga performance and how it was better than under Jupp. In the league games I have seen, I always thought they looked vulnerable and prone to a beating if they came up against a strong side and didn't fancy them as European contenders this year.
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