Cop in America doing a bad job, again

[Skizzo]

Hidden.

An actual specific number would be near impossible, yes. There’s info that is available though. Still far from perfect, I agree.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...6fda6b404c7_story.html?utm_term=.9188d9b8abe5

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...er-year-or-3-per-day-are-arrested-nationwide/

 

[Skizzo]

You can find out for us, maybe ask around... I wonder how that would go?

I could possibly find out for my department. As I said, we recently (within the last month) fired an officer from our office for excessive force.

The downside of multiple offices across the state means I miss the day to day of every occurrence in our department, although we should have something centralized since it’s for the State.

It’s CHP though man, we’re awesome

Side note, not sure if you saw my post to @vi1lain a couple of weeks ago in regards to addressing my trainee, but if there’s anything you’d like me to ask or address, let me know. Same for @Eboue @Silva or anyone else that’s interested.

 

[Eboue]

Didn't see it. Repost

 

[Rado_N]

An actual specific number would be near impossible, yes. There’s info that is available though. Still far from perfect, I agree.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...6fda6b404c7_story.html?utm_term=.9188d9b8abe5

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...er-year-or-3-per-day-are-arrested-nationwide/

If the number of shootings of unarmed people is actually down then that's obviously a good thing but that's a narrow scope. There's lots of other abuses, such as the video discussed over the last few pages.

The problem in the US is wider than just the police, and there's systemic problems that contribute to what we see, mostly due to the fecked up gun laws and the way politicians bow down to the NRA and prevent even allowing government research into gun crime, but also the racial divide which is only being made worse by your moron President.

 

[Skizzo]

Didn't see it. Repost

On a side note, and this is open to yourself, or anyone. I just finished FTO training, so will be taking out new officers who come to our office after graduating the academy, and training them to see if they make it off the field training phase. I plan on having a variety of discussions across topics since we’ll have time to kill in the car while hunting those ticket quotas if there’s a perspective or topic that you think would be good to broach, or something you would like to hear a new officers perspective and thoughts on, let me know. This is probably a little far out of left field, but I’m open to hearing suggestions, in PM or otherwise

If the number of shootings of unarmed people is actually down then that's obviously a good thing but that's a narrow scope. There's lots of other abuses, such as the video discussed over the last few pages.

The problem in the US is wider than just the police, and there's systemic problems that contribute to what we see, mostly due to the fecked up gun laws and the way politicians bow down to the NRA and prevent even allowing government research into gun crime, but also the racial divide which is only being made worse by your moron President.

Agreed, and like they said, it is a limited number, so any minor discrepancies can skew things

 

[Eboue]

Agreed, and like they said, it is a limited number, so any minor discrepancies can skew things

I dont mean to be glib but its hard to think of how to respond to that. I think it's clear that a number of us here think police in this country are prone to using excessive force, targeting minorities, lying to protect their coworkers, etc. So I guess tell him not to do that.

 

[afrocentricity]

I dont mean to be glib but its hard to think of how to respond to that. I think it's clear that a number of us here think police in this country are prone to using excessive force, targeting minorities, lying to protect their coworkers, etc. So I guess tell him not to do that.

Beat me to it....

If they turn out to be the type (ie. You see warning signs, questionable jokes/statements), I'm sure you'll do the right thing @Skizzo?

 

[Silva]

 

[Skizzo]

I dont mean to be glib but its hard to think of how to respond to that. I think it's clear that a number of us here think police in this country are prone to using excessive force, targeting minorities, lying to protect their coworkers, etc. So I guess tell him not to do that.

Gotcha. Just saw it as a small window for people to get an insight into a fresh faced officer, and wondered if there was specific insights someone might be curious of, if there’s nothing else, no worries. In terms of the things mentioned, contrary to what you might think, those would be frowned upon immediately

Beat me to it....

If they turn out to be the type (ie. You see warning signs, questionable jokes/statements), I'm sure you'll do the right thing @Skizzo?

Of course. They’re evaluated across multiple categories, and if there’s anything that would be a red flag in terms of uses of force, prejudice etc then I’d recommend they be gone.

 

[afrocentricity]

 

[Grinner]

Gotcha. Just saw it as a small window for people to get an insight into a fresh faced officer, and wondered if there was specific insights someone might be curious of, if there’s nothing else, no worries. In terms of the things mentioned, contrary to what you might think, those would be frowned upon immediately



Of course. They’re evaluated across multiple categories, and if there’s anything that would be a red flag in terms of uses of force, prejudice etc then I’d recommend they be gone.

So @TheReligion probably wouldn't make it then?

 

[Skizzo]

So @TheReligion probably wouldn't make it then?

Well this is how I issue warnings for speed

 

[Andersons Dietician]

If I’m on the ground and someone is trying to put handcuffs on me and then someone gives me two hammer fists to the head that isn’t going to make me comply. If anything it’s going to make me want to put my boot through that persons face.
@Skizzo my friends girlfriend was some sort of high ranking officer in the Scottish police force and he was saying that she could put anyone in handcuffs no matter the size. I accepted this challenge and you’re right if someone doesn’t want or allow you to put cuffs on it’s practically impossible to her credit she put up a good fight. I gave her one hand behind my back and cuffed to start with she kept smashing the back of my knee but it got to the point where I could easily get out of it and away but to do so would have meant possibly injuring her. Would be intresting against someone of the same size as I take part in BJJ and my friend teaches and competes and we are roughly the same size he’s just ridiculously strong and throws me about and manipulates me at will. Being those guys surely outweigh probably out strength her and that there is two of them in no way can they justify that. Simply not acceptable at all. I hope she is pressing charges and that guy is fired.

Obviously policing in Scotland is vastly different from the US, probably not anywhere near as aggressive and there is the added benefit of people holding guns being extremely rare.

 

[Skizzo]

@Andersons Dietician yeah it’s something people don’t usually consider. Most of the time, people I’ve arrested have been compliant and gone along with it, and that’s with everything from DUI’s to domestic violence. The ones that weren’t have ranged from two of us wrestling with a meth head, to six of us trying to get someone secured in a restraint chair. So many variables as to strength, size, how much resistance etc.

Pain compliance and control holds are options, but someone resists and tries to twist away and suddenly a control hold ends up as a broken wrist and it looks even worse.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

@Andersons Dietician yeah it’s something people don’t usually consider. Most of the time, people I’ve arrested have been compliant and gone along with it, and that’s with everything from DUI’s to domestic violence. The ones that weren’t have ranged from two of us wrestling with a meth head, to six of us trying to get someone secured in a restraint chair. So many variables as to strength, size, how much resistance etc.

Pain compliance and control holds are options, but someone resists and tries to twist away and suddenly a control hold ends up as a broken wrist and it looks even worse.

Let’s face it it’s a difficult and highly stressful job and it’s probably harder for people outside of the US to understand why it’s so aggressive. Walking up to a routine traffic stop and not knowing if that person has a gun or not must put you in a state of high stress, anxiety whatever it is. The adrenaline must be going crazy. Here gun crime isn’t really a thing or if there is it’s very isolated incidents as since Dunblane I think the law is unlicensed holding of handguns and so on is straight 10-15 years in jail. So although I’m sure our police are trained to deal with such high stress situations surely somewhere in their minds they are probably slightly more relaxed. Knife crime is probably more of relevant threat here.

Sorry gone off on more of a gun laws vibe here but I guess that is why police are more aggressive over there. Although that video to me is just police brutality and I can’t see how in that scenario that can be justified. Obviously if you’re an officer and you’re fighting for your life then you do whatever it takes in my opinion but that seemed like a situation they could easily handle without the need for that.

 

[Skizzo]

Let’s face it it’s a difficult and highly stressful job and it’s probably harder for people outside of the US to understand why it’s so aggressive. Walking up to a routine traffic stop and not knowing if that person has a gun or not must put you in a state of high stress, anxiety whatever it is. The adrenaline must be going crazy. Here gun crime isn’t really a thing or if there is it’s very isolated incidents as since Dunblane I think the law is unlicensed holding of handguns and so on is straight 10-15 years in jail. So although I’m sure our police are trained to deal with such high stress situations surely somewhere in their minds they are probably slightly more relaxed. Knife crime is probably more of relevant threat here.

Sorry gone off on more of a gun laws vibe here but I guess that is why police are more aggressive over there. Although that video to me is just police brutality and I can’t see how in that scenario that can be justified. Obviously if you’re an officer and you’re fighting for your life then you do whatever it takes in my opinion but that seemed like a situation they could easily handle without the need for that.

The traffic stops and unknown contacts are a certain kind of stress, more of a gradual wear down because of the heightened alert.

The job itself encompasses a variety of other things which are probably worse on a day to day level. For example, spent the weekend sitting at the hospital for a guy who was under arrest for getting drunk, riding his ATV and killing his 4 year old. Responding to scenes like that, as a dad, makes it hard to try and still be compassionate and professional with someone. Different sorts of stress.

I’m not sure who said it in this thread or another, but people can be assholes.

 

[Denis79]

Let’s face it it’s a difficult and highly stressful job and it’s probably harder for people outside of the US to understand why it’s so aggressive. Walking up to a routine traffic stop and not knowing if that person has a gun or not must put you in a state of high stress, anxiety whatever it is. The adrenaline must be going crazy. Here gun crime isn’t really a thing or if there is it’s very isolated incidents as since Dunblane I think the law is unlicensed holding of handguns and so on is straight 10-15 years in jail. So although I’m sure our police are trained to deal with such high stress situations surely somewhere in their minds they are probably slightly more relaxed. Knife crime is probably more of relevant threat here.

Sorry gone off on more of a gun laws vibe here but I guess that is why police are more aggressive over there. Although that video to me is just police brutality and I can’t see how in that scenario that can be justified. Obviously if you’re an officer and you’re fighting for your life then you do whatever it takes in my opinion but that seemed like a situation they could easily handle without the need for that.

When I graduated from the academy, Serbia was the 2nd country in the "recorded" world in fire arms / population. We had just come out of a civil war. We were at the time the corridor to europe for drugs and human trafficking. So I know the stress you're talking about. 95% of my collegues were good officers with the right state of mind but there was that 5% that had nothing to do in law enforcement. People who became officers for all the wrong reasons, or simply weren't made for the job. Usually it's that 5% we see in theese videos and they ruin some fine work by other officers.

Even though I know I'm not even getting a fragment of the whole picture, the US police force does seem very brutal, even by Serbian standards. Watching series like Cops or the like, they are very quick to use force in situations I wouldn't have but as said, they just show the action packed footage and not the "normal" police work.

 

[Raoul]

Well this is how I issue warnings for speed

What's the general speed buffer you give speeders before pulling them over ?

 

[Skizzo]

What's the general speed buffer you give speeders before pulling them over ?

Me personally?

On the freeway with a 65mph limit, I don’t stop anything under 80 unless they’re driving like an ass (tailgating, unsafe lane changes etc). If they’re honest and respectful, they might not even get a ticket out of it at all.

A lot go like this though.

Me - good evening sir/ma’am, the reason you were stopped is for your speed. Did you realize how fast you were going?

Them - 65.

Me - No sir/ma’am, I didn’t pull you over for going the speed limit.

———————————-

Them - With the flow of traffic.

Me - well, you were passing everyone else so no not quite.

———————————-

Them - I have no idea.

Me - I paced you for the last mile at 84mph.

Them - no way was I going that fast.

Me - you just told me you had no idea how fast you were going.

———————————-

And you can just about guarantee these people are the ones most likely to ask for a warning, and/or be most annoyed at getting a citation.

 

[Raoul]

Me personally?

On the freeway with a 65mph limit, I don’t stop anything under 80 unless they’re driving like an ass (tailgating, unsafe lane changes etc). If they’re honest and respectful, they might not even get a ticket out of it at all.

A lot go like this though.

Me - good evening sir/ma’am, the reason you were stopped is for your speed. Did you realize how fast you were going?

Them - 65.

Me - No sir/ma’am, I didn’t pull you over for going the speed limit.

———————————-

Them - With the flow of traffic.

Me - well, you were passing everyone else so no not quite.

———————————-

Them - I have no idea.

Me - I paced you for the last mile at 84mph.

Them - no way was I going that fast.

Me - you just told me you had no idea how fast you were going.

———————————-

And you can just about guarantee these people are the ones most likely to ask for a warning, and/or be most annoyed at getting a citation.

Interesting. I've been let off with warnings the last 5 or so times I've been pulled over...(imo) simply by being polite, friendly, and collaborative. None of them were for speeding, but the general vibe I've always gotten is being friendly and collaborative always results in no ticket or any further problems.

 

[Raoul]

BTW @Skizzo - one of my last speeding tickets was in Gilroy CA back in 1995 for going about 70 in a 55. I took a weekend CHP course where the instructor told us he never pulls people over for going any less than 5 over the limit. Good to know you go well beyond that.

 

[Skizzo]

Interesting. I've been let off with warnings the last 5 or so times I've been pulled over...(imo) simply by being polite, friendly, and collaborative. None of them were for speeding, but the general vibe I've always gotten is being friendly and collaborative always results in no ticket or any further problems.

Yeah it really is that straight forward sometimes. Obviously some officers will write you no matter what, but your chances of just a warning certainly increase by generally just being a pleasant person.

I’m a white officer, so I know a good number of people have formed an opinion of me upon me contacting them for speed or whatever it may be. The confusion on their face when I come back and tell them it’s a warning and to slow down and get home safe, followed by their big grin and a thank you/hand shake probably makes a better impression on them, and hopefully makes them think about slowing down, as much as a ticket would.

 

[Javi]

Interesting. I've been let off with warnings the last 5 or so times I've been pulled over...(imo) simply by being polite, friendly, and collaborative. None of them were for speeding, but the general vibe I've always gotten is being friendly and collaborative always results in no ticket or any further problems.

Are you wearing a jihadi beard or don't you know how to drive?

 

[Skizzo]

BTW @Skizzo - one of my last speeding tickets was in Gilroy CA back in 1995 for going about 70 in a 55. I took a weekend CHP course where the instructor told us he never pulls people over for going any less than 5 over the limit. Good to know you go well beyond that.

Just don’t use me as a rule of thumb, or you might be getting hammered by other officers

I used to live down in Gilroy btw. I’m back and forth between San Jose and Sacramento now.

 

[Javi]

Just don’t use me as a rule of thumb, or you might be getting hammered by other officers

Is that kind of discretion legit? For all I know over the limit is over the limit, 5% leeway fair enough - but can every officer decide for himself what he deems apropriate or not. Not sure that kind of inconsistency would be ok.

 

[Raoul]

Is that kind of discretion legit? For all I know over the limit is over the limit, 5% leeway fair enough - but can every officer decide for himself what he deems apropriate or not. Not sure that kind of inconsistency would be ok.

Suppose it also depends on how busy the cops are and how erratic a person is driving.

 

[Javi]

Suppose it also depends on how busy the cops are and how erratic a person is driving.

Sure, think of an officer cruising the highway checking on traffic rules. Erraticness (i.e. dangerous driving) imo is a different criteria although relative of speed it's also independant of it. Just that speed must be involved in the judgement.

 

[Raoul]

Are you wearing a jihadi beard or don't you know how to drive?

I'm a decent driver but do get pulled over for some bizarre reasons. The past 5 have been....

- Burned out tail light in Utah
- Driving between two 18 wheelers without giving both enough buffer space ahead and behind me in Arizona
- Driving in the left lane of a two lane highway without the need to pass anyone (apparently this is not allowed) in Texas
- Changing two lanes at once in Oklahoma
- Car swerving due to excessive wind in Kansas

All cops were extremely professional and let me off with warnings instead of tickets. The one in Texas involved the cop asking me to sit in the passenger seat of his SUV cruiser while he had a chance to check out my car (which in retrospect I'm convinced he just wanted to check out its features since it was brand new at the time).

 

[Skizzo]

Is that kind of discretion legit? For all I know over the limit is over the limit, 5% leeway fair enough - but can every officer decide for himself what he deems apropriate or not. Not sure that kind of inconsistency would be ok.

A 5% leeway means I’d pull people over for going 68mph? I get the point you’re making though.

Lots of factors come into it. Speed of the other traffic on the freeway, road/weather conditions, how they’re driving (in an open lane with little to no traffic on the road as opposed to someone weaving through moderate to heavy traffic).

If you want to go by the book, 66mph is a ticket. Officers are given discretion to a degree. Some officers won’t stop for certain things (window tint, broken taillight) whereas others will stop everything they see. I also work graveyard shift, so I’m less concerned with someone driving 81mph and going home, when I can kick them loose with a warning and try and find someone driving impaired before they crash.

 

[Raoul]

A 5% leeway means I’d pull people over for going 68mph? I get the point you’re making though.

Lots of factors come into it. Speed of the other traffic on the freeway, road/weather conditions, how they’re driving (in an open lane with little to no traffic on the road as opposed to someone weaving through moderate to heavy traffic).

If you want to go by the book, 66mph is a ticket. Officers are given discretion to a degree. Some officers won’t stop for certain things (window tint, broken taillight) whereas others will stop everything they see. I also work graveyard shift, so I’m less concerned with someone driving 81mph and going home, when I can kick them loose with a warning and try and find someone driving impaired before they crash.

Do you wear a body cam when you're out and about ?

 

[Skizzo]

Do you wear a body cam when you're out and about ?

CHP is running field tests on them in a few areas, but our office currently only has the patrol vehicle camera with a microphone we wear.

The issue we have as a department is that since we’re statewide, storage is an issue in terms of implementing something realistic, and affordable.

 

[choiboyx012]

Is that kind of discretion legit? For all I know over the limit is over the limit, 5% leeway fair enough - but can every officer decide for himself what he deems apropriate or not. Not sure that kind of inconsistency would be ok.

Yes, as long as it was a lawful detention/contact and departmental rules were followed, he/she has the discretion. Yes it is and can be very inconsistent, unfortunately.

Here's another 'rule of thumb ' i tell my friends:
1. If the cop pulling you over is on a motorcycle, expect a ticket.
2. If it's a fresh face fresh cut trainee with an older, sloppier looking training officer with a mustache, expect a ticket.

3. Or if it's the CHP! Lol

 

[Skizzo]

Yes, as long as it was a lawful detention/contact and departmental rules were followed, he/she has the discretion. Yes it is and can be very inconsistent, unfortunately.

Here's another 'rule of thumb ' i tell my friends:
1. If the cop pulling you over is on a motorcycle, expect a ticket.
2. If it's a fresh face fresh cut trainee with an older, sloppier looking training officer with a mustache, expect a ticket.

3. Or if it's the CHP! Lol

What about if it’s CHP who’s still young-ish with a trainee?

Not sure if 32 is considered “young-ish” or if I’m grasping here

 

[choiboyx012]

Re discretion,
I have a few buddies that work Lapd central division, which is in downtown LA. The station is smack center of skid row, where all the crackheads, methheads, homeless encampments are. Officers there use a LOT of discretion. They tell me the second they walk out the station they "put the blinders on" so they don't see ppl drinking openly on the street, pissing on the walls, mentally ill people yelling all kinds of obscenities, smoking crack/meth and shooting up.

Like mentioned earlier, a lot depends on the area an officer works. In busy places like DTLA, they don't have time to enforce homeless ppl getting high, or any traffic infractions for that matter. It's usually the more suburban, quieter places where you'll see more of the traffic stops for chicken-shit violations.

 

[Grinner]

Just don’t use me as a rule of thumb, or you might be getting hammered by other officers

I used to live down in Gilroy btw. I’m back and forth between San Jose and Sacramento now.

Dude, we have to meet up for that ridealong! I'll tell you all about that kingshit CHP who busted me for jaywalking in downtown Sac on a Sunday night with no cars in sight.

 

[Skizzo]

Dude, we have to meet up for that ridealong! I'll tell you all about that kingshit CHP who busted me for jaywalking in downtown Sac on a Sunday night with no cars in sight.

For sure. I’m working down in Redwood City, so that’s where it would have to be, but let me know what your schedule is like.

 

[TheReligion]

There's unquestionably an anti-police bias, but can you not understand why that might be the case?

You work here in the UK which is very different to the climate in the US at the moment even if there are issues here. You must be able to appreciate why there is a feeling of distrust towards the police from the American public given the endless stream of incidents we see?

There is case after case of brutality and even killings and all too often the departments/cities in question defend the actions of their officers almost blindly. It's no wonder people feel the way they do.

The CE forum is meant to encourage debate, yes, but when the likes of Schatner consistently run around defending every fecked up scenario for the sake of being controversial it's difficult to avoid things spiralling.

When a video is shown of two big trained (armed) guys restraining a young girl and one of them punches her in the head twice it's mental to think there are people wanting to try and defend that, regardless of what went before it.

I totally understand why there are these feelings in the US.

I do genuinely believe the issue is with the mentality of US people when it comes to firearms though as opposed to US cops are terrible. It's certainly a cultural problem within America when it comes to the use of firearms.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I think the thing with cops is simple; they're people and like all people, some are good and some are bad. That police in some parts of the world seem to attract a lot of bad guys is probably true, I don't think it's fair to paint cops in general to be over aggressive bad guys. It's obviously a very stressful job and in some situations you decide to er on the safe side and use too much force. In the video being discussed here I think that's very obvious. Punching this girl in the face while she is unarmed and already down is excessive. I doubt anyone in this topic disagrees with that. I do have some sympathy for cops in general since, as the general public, it's very easy to decide someone is an aggressive psychopath over a 20 second video. Perhaps the guy has been shot at by a harmless looking victim before, perhaps there are other factors that lead to this. I would never want to be a cop for these reasons obviously, I'm not brave enough to go after bad guys and probably wouldn't be able to correctly assess all these situations either. You can reason that if a cop can't do this either, he shouldn't be a cop, but that's very easy to say from the sidelines.

Cops are people and some people are cnuts. That's basically how it works. I don't think there's some institutional country wide master plan to keep the little man down with violence.

I've actually had a bad run in with two cops on new years eve. I was drunkly cycling home with a friend sitting on the back off my bike when we were pulled over. The cops shouted, face against the wall and don't say anything. I proceeded to, admittedly in a snarky way, tell them that's ridiculous and wanted to know what I did wrong. They proceeded to tackle me, cuff me, and haul me off to the station where I spend a night in jail. Hardly seems fair, but after an entire night off chasing after aggressive drunk people they were probably weary and had reached the end of their patience. I was mad about it, but the bed in my cell was comfy and I never bothered to make anything out of it.

TL;DR:
uhm, some cops suck, but context is important. The incident in this topic is an obvious case of excessive force though.

 

[afrocentricity]

The same way it's 'easy' for us to criticise cops using excessive force (from the sidelines) without knowing the full picture (preceding events, motives, etc) is the same way it's 'easy' for us to criticise the people on the receiving end (without knowing the full picture)... We shouldn't do either as much as we do but it happens, a lot.

It annoys me when people like Mike posit all the different things the person being tazed/tackled/shot/etc may have done to warrant it. Just like it annoys some of you when people question the motives of the POs involved.

Maybe we should do less of both? Or at the least quit whining about either?

Hardly seems fair, but after an entire night off chasing after aggressive drunk people they were probably weary and had reached the end of their patience. I was mad about it, but the bed in my cell was comfy and I never bothered to make anything out of it.

You seem to very understanding. I wonder how far it goes?

I've had worst done to me for less.

 

[KirkDuyt]

@afrocentricity
I can imagine if it happens on a regular basis you won’t grant them the benefit of the doubt, but as a white guy from a rather well off neighbourhood I have almost no experience with unfair treatment from cops. That probably helps.

Either way, I agree with your post, we’re quick to judge both sides. I stand by the fact that in this video the officers are clearly at fault and should be punished, but things are rarely as black and white as a first look makes it seem.

Hammerfisting an unarmed little girl is ridiculous though.