Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Synco said:
It is the best system so far in that regard, but when looking at the historical competition, this doesn't mean much. The last ~150 years of capitalism tell a vastly different story about opportunities for the poor in general. It only looks so from the perspective of the global minority that's equipped with at least modest chances for upward mobility, i.e. a privileged group.
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Capitalism in its core means that if I want your money I have to provide you with a service and I can choose which service I specialise in. That choice makes it the most free, the more freedom, the more possibility for advancement or change of any kind.

A great deal of the issues you are referencing come from people in positions of power not giving minorities equal standing as a participant in capitalism.

A perversion in the system meaning that it wasn't truly applied to the entire population. A fault of people, not system. It is possible to argue that capitalism is more easily corrupted than other ideologies but as far as ones which are compatible with our culture I disagree.
 
Silva said:
Poverty has been on decline in every political/economic/cultural system since practically forever. And it's not the politicians, economy or culture that has improved lives, it's the handful of people who invented something useful things like the wheel, penicillin or a vaccine. If you were born in Mongolia in the year 1200, you'd think raiding was the best way to bring people out poverty. If you were born in 19th century Britain, you'd think it was imperialism.
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Would there not have been spikes with places like Stalinist Russia?
Interesting point though
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Capitalism in its core means that if I want your money I have to provide you with a service and I can choose which service I specialise in. That choice makes it the most free, the more freedom, the more possibility for advancement or change of any kind.

A great deal of the issues you are referencing come from people in positions of power not giving minorities equal standing as a participant in capitalism.

A perversion in the system meaning that it wasn't truly applied to the entire population. A fault of people, not system. It is possible to argue that capitalism is more easily corrupted than other ideologies but as far as ones which are compatible with our culture I disagree.
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That freedom is an abstract freedom, which is kind of the trick. It (ideally) gives everyone equal rights to participate in the market economy, while disregarding the vast pre-existing differences in actual possibilities. A kid from a poverty-ridden neighbourhood has the same abstract chance to later get a well paid job as a kid born into a wealthy household. I know who I'd bet on making it. So to me your point mistakes the theoretical chance to succeed in capitalism for the actual chance to succeed there in real life.

Likewise, the discrimination of women and minorities is not the origin of social inequality, it's just a method of passing the buck to selected groups. Advocates of capitalism usually laud the competitive relationship it establishes between people. But the point of competition is that someone has to be the loser - if it weren't for discrimination, poverty and bad opportunities would just be distributed more evenly between social groups.
 
Synco said:
That freedom is an abstract freedom, which is kind of the trick. It (ideally) gives everyone equal rights to participate in the market economy, while disregarding the vast pre-existing differences in actual possibilities. A kid from a poverty-ridden neighbourhood has the same abstract chance to later get a well paid job as a kid born into a wealthy household. I know who I'd bet on making it. So to me your point mistakes the theoretical chance to succeed in capitalism for the actual chance to succeed there in real life.

Likewise, the discrimination of women and minorities is not the origin of social inequality, it's just a method of passing the buck to selected groups. Advocates of capitalism usually laud the competitive relationship it establishes between people. But the point of competition is that someone has to be the loser - if it weren't for discrimination, poverty and bad opportunities would just be distributed more evenly between social groups.
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You say that freedom is abstract and then point to it being absolute (in this context) which doesn't make sense to me. What you are talking about is inequality not freedom of choice in a market. Is inequality bad? Yes. Is it insurmountable in western culture? Only for 2% of people statistically. If you make the correct personal choices regardless of your circumstances or anything else not under your control then you will not remain in poverty in capitalism.

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/...teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/

"Being a loser" is subjective. If you look at capitalism as a competition (which is a misstep) then I am a loser due to the fact that my boss earns more money than me, hell the fact that Bill Gates earns more money than me. That doesn't mean I can't live a comfortable existence. Yes social biases and discrimination are problems but as shown above capitalism allows for this to be overcome.

Would you care to suggest a better system?
 
@Silva : I dont think this is getting anywhere and this debate seems to be locked in a stalemate :lol:

Just so it's clear i am absolutely for fighting for social issues, i also agree that intersectionality can be a useful analytical tool. I have two problems with it though as i've mentioned
1. I don't think intersectionality as a framework is a good idea when talking about real world activism for two reasons
a. There are too many variables too make any kind of focused effort
b. It can make matters unnecessarily complicated

2. Some people have been using the idea of intersectionality wrong and imo it has lead us to the whole: "victim-mentality" and "trigger warning" debacle and it places too much emphasis on what people are rather than who they are. When philosophy students don't want to read Plato simply on the grounds of him being a white man, it has gone to far imo

That's what i love about partly anonymous forums like these. For all i know you could be a disabled, black gay woman or you could win the societal lottery (like me) and be a straight white man, in the end it does not matter, your opinion is just as valid as anyone's
 
He's English himself, the twit.
 
I think I might know what he's trying to get at though. Its summed up by our flag. Welsh people can happily display Welsh flags and bask in the patriotism of it. I have a completely different relationship with St George's Cross. I couldnt see myself ever waving it / identifying with it. It has unfortunate negative connotations.

Im not that keen on the Union Jack either.
 
I get where he's coming from. The English aren't a patriotic bunch really, and the ones who are tend to be associated with the whole skin head, England flag out the window thing.
 
Adebesi said:
I actually think English people are quite patriotic. Even people who are uncomfortable with our flag, or who think our national anthem is an embarrassment.
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Maybe, I guess it depends on where you are. I'm English and I can't say I'm that bothered, a lot of people down here in the south west tend to think of themselves as Cornish anyway.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
I get where he's coming from. The English aren't a patriotic bunch really, and the ones who are tend to be associated with the whole skin head, England flag out the window thing.
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Adebesi said:
I think I might know what he's trying to get at though. Its summed up by our flag. Welsh people can happily display Welsh flags and bask in the patriotism of it. I have a completely different relationship with St George's Cross. I couldnt see myself ever waving it / identifying with it. It has unfortunate negative connotations.

Im not that keen on the Union Jack either.
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It's a bit of a catch 22 though, you want to be able to fly the flag with no racist, negative connotations but you don't because the you don't want to associate with those negatives. I'm not explaining it very well but I guess not flying the flag, increases the perception that it's a negative thing and only increases the divide.
 
SteveTheRed said:
It's a bit of a catch 22 though, you want to be able to fly the flag with no racist, negative connotations but you don't because the you don't want to associate with those negatives. I'm not explaining it very well but I guess not flying the flag, increases the perception that it's a negative thing and only increases the divide.
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You did explain it well and yes you make a good point.
 
In general, I reckon that anyone who flies any national flag is a bit of a dick. Patriotism is seen as a bit more acceptable coming from nations with a history of a struggle for independence (Wales, Ireland) but you can usually rest assured that any Irish or Welsh man who plasters his gaff with flags is a prat, until proven otherwise.

All bets are off during football tournaments, obviously.
 
Adebesi said:
I've never met a Canadian who didn't have a Maple Leaf sewn onto his or her backpack. When travelling, of course. I presume they want people to know they're not American.
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Watch out for the Americans who do that to trick you.
 
Adebesi said:
I've never met a Canadian who didn't have a Maple Leaf sewn onto his or her backpack. When travelling, of course. I presume they want people to know they're not American.
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Irish people do the same, people are much friendlier.
I dont even think its entirely so people aren't mistaking you as being english or american but ... it does help tbh.

Got off the plane in auckland and went into a bar.
Once the guy who ran the place found out we were irish he insisted we hang around for a lock in and to sing songs and drink his beer free of charge.
Strange and brilliant.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
In general, I reckon that anyone who flies any national flag is a bit of a dick. Patriotism is seen as a bit more acceptable coming from nations with a history of a struggle for independence (Wales, Ireland) but you can usually rest assured that any Irish or Welsh man who plasters his gaff with flags is a prat, until proven otherwise.

All bets are off during football tournaments, obviously.
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Completely agree with you, other than the footie like you said. I give passes on the Welsh dragon tattoos, just because I think it's a badass design :D , though people who have them tend to be dicks
 
Pogue Mahone said:
In general, I reckon that anyone who flies any national flag is a bit of a dick. Patriotism is seen as a bit more acceptable coming from nations with a history of a struggle for independence (Wales, Ireland) but you can usually rest assured that any Irish or Welsh man who plasters his gaff with flags is a prat, until proven otherwise.

All bets are off during football tournaments, obviously.
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Usually cos it's done in lieu of having anything else interesting about you to promote.

Adebesi said:
I actually think English people are quite patriotic. Even people who are uncomfortable with our flag, or who think our national anthem is an embarrassment.
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I get where your coming from. I hate Nationalism, our flag, our anthem, a lot of our history and the very idea of our monarchy, but I can't deny I quite like being English for some reason. I can't really put my finger on it though. I certainly feel more like a Londoner than a fellow Englishman in most places up north, and even some down south, and most of the times I tangibly feel English abroad - football not permitting - are when I'm actively embarrassed by it. In anglersized Spanish resorts for example. Or sometimes football....Alright, quite often football.
 
Mockney said:
Usually cos it's done in lieu of having anything else interesting about you to promote.



I get where your coming from. I hate Nationalism, our flag, our anthem, a lot of our history and the very idea of our monarchy, but I can't deny I quite like being English for some reason. I can't really put my finger on it though. I certainly feel more like a Londoner than a fellow Englishman in most places up north, and even some down south, and most of the times I tangibly feel English abroad - football not permitting - are when I'm actively embarrassed by it. In anglersized Spanish resorts for example. Or sometimes football....Alright, quite often football.
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I remember at Uni in a tutorial we were discussing identity and all of us were asked to write down three things, three groups we belonged to, as in English, British, European, Manc, Londoner, mixed race, whatever. Whichever ones you felt most strongly. It was really interesting how people differed. I feel more English than British I must say. But probably more Londoner than English.
 
Adebesi said:
I remember at Uni in a tutorial we were discussing identity and all of us were asked to write down three things, three groups we belonged to, as in English, British, European, Manc, Londoner, mixed race, whatever. Whichever ones you felt most strongly. It was really interesting how people differed. I feel more English than British I must say. But probably more Londoner than English.
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That could make an interesting thread
 
Adebesi said:
I remember at Uni in a tutorial we were discussing identity and all of us were asked to write down three things, three groups we belonged to, as in English, British, European, Manc, Londoner, mixed race, whatever. Whichever ones you felt most strongly. It was really interesting how people differed. I feel more English than British I must say. But probably more Londoner than English.
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Depends where you are a lot as well. I definitely feel more like a Londoner when I'm in England, or places like New York that are very multicultural and similar, but I feel more English in somewhere like the MidWest, or the south of France/Spain etc.

I don't really think of myself as British that often. Not sure why, but probably because the distinction isn't important enough to me, whereas it would be moreso to someone from Belfast or Edinburgh perhaps.
 
Mockney said:
Depends where you are a lot as well. I definitely feel more like a Londoner when I'm in England, or places like New York that are very multicultural and similar, but I feel more English in somewhere like the MidWest, or the south of France/Spain etc.

I don't really think of myself as British that often. Not sure why, but probably because the distinction isn't important enough to me, whereas it would be moreso to someone from Belfast or Edinburgh perhaps.
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True but then on the other hand you do find people from Edinburgh and Belfast often feel more fiercely Irish or Scottish than British. I guess that's a huge generalisation.

The point being, identity is like concentric circles, you can be many different things all at once but some you feel more strongly than others. And they dont all have to be about nationality or what city you are from, being a United fan could constitute a significant part of your own identity - you could feel more loyalty to your tribe as a United fan than to your country or city.

During the whole Brexit debate I realised that I care a lot less about the whole concept of the nation state than a lot of other people clearly do, hence not being particularly moved by arguments about "taking back control". And I feel much more comfortable with the concept of a supranational political grouping like Europe than most British people obviously do - certainly most English people. I am quite happy to think of myself as European. I reckon I feel more European than British. (Despite speaking no European languages.)
 
I guess all these questions are things Catalonians will be wrestling with this weekend. Has the Spanish government told Catalans Barca will be kicked out of the Spanish league if Catalonia is no longer part of Spain? That might help secure the result they want.
 
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