Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Vato said:
Wait, so some transsexuals get annoyed at hearing ladies and gentlemen through some speakers?

Why if I may ask?
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Not transsexuals, usually, no. 'Trans people' includes lots of different people, including those who have no desire to have surgery but feel neither entirely male nor female. Either both or neither. Thus neither 'ladies' nor 'gentlemen' feels applicable to them, whereas 'everyone', 'you lot' or 'feck wads' does.
 
SaintTresano said:
How can someone really be both genders or neither, especially the latter?
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I could probably dig out a few lengthy posts, I made a while back, describing my own take on feeling both male and female, if you wish?

I can't say I know an awful lot about feeling neither. It's neither a personal experience nor one anyone close to me has ever expressed.
 
SaintTresano said:
How can someone really be both genders or neither, especially the latter?
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It would depend on what your definition of gender is and specifically what you feel defines it. Is it just a matter of what plumbing you have? But then there are those born with both. Is it genetics? Again I think there are issues with that also. Is it how a person feels on the inside? Is it just want a person wants to call themselves? etc etc etc etc.
 
SaintTresano said:
How can someone really be both genders or neither, especially the latter?
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I can only imagine, but my understanding has been that some people can feel neither inherently male or female and regularly move between feeling like the two, or in other instances, may not feel like either, at all.

It's something I don't think a person will ever understand without experiencing it to some degree, and as it makes absolutely no difference to my life whatsoever if someone identifies as one particular gender, two genders, or neither, I'm more than happy for them to live their lives as they feel is appropriate for them. Additionally, if there are things that can be changed to make their lives easier, or to make them feel more comfortable in public settings, such as changing announcements from starting, "ladies and gentlemen," I'm more than happy for these changes to be made.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
Not transsexuals, usually, no. 'Trans people' includes lots of different people, including those who have no desire to have surgery but feel neither entirely male nor female. Either both or neither. Thus neither 'ladies' nor 'gentlemen' feels applicable to them, whereas 'everyone', 'you lot' or 'feck wads' does.
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I guess everyone would be more suited but I find all of this incredibly ridiculous tbh.

It's like the kind of person (that's still good, right?) that looks for things to get annoyed at. I just don't get it.
 
Vato said:
I guess everyone would be more suited but I find all of this incredibly ridiculous tbh.

It's like the kind of person (that's still good, right?) that looks for things to get annoyed at. I just don't get it.
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It's very hard to understand if you've not known anyone experience it, I imagine.

I try very hard to remember that, as I do live in a world where these sorts of things are vastly more common than the world most people live in.
 
Vato said:
I guess everyone would be more suited but I find all of this incredibly ridiculous tbh.

It's like the kind of person (that's still good, right?) that looks for things to get annoyed at. I just don't get it.
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If you live a life being actively discriminated against, I imagine one of the last things on your mind is to go around looking for things to get annoyed at.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I could probably dig out a few lengthy posts, describing my own take on feeling both male and female, if you wish?

I can't say I know an awful lot about feeling neither. It's neither a personal experience nor one anyone close to me has ever expressed.
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You don't have to pull up the posts, but I'd like to know your take on the difference between feeling both genders and being a male sex who's extremely feminine?
 
JustAFan said:
It would depend on what your definition of gender is and specifically what you feel defines it. Is it just a matter of what plumbing you have? But then there are those born with both. Is it genetics? Again I think there are issues with that also. Is it how a person feels on the inside? Is it just want a person wants to call themselves? etc etc etc etc.
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Is there not a standardized definition of gender? Or is that something to be disregarded because someone feels a different interpretation?
 
Vato said:
Or exactly the opposite? I guess it depends on the individual.
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It does. But some cashiers, plumbers or Real Madrid fans also spend their life trying to find things to be offended by.
 
SaintTresano said:
Is there not a standardized definition of gender? Or is that something to be disregarded because someone feels a different interpretation?
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Well what is that standard definition then? Is it set in stone or is it something that could change as we learn more and more about what it is to be human and all that being human entails?
 
JustAFan said:
Well what is that standard definition then? Is it set in stone or is it something that could change as we learn more and more about what it is to be human and all that being human entails?
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Indeed. There has never been a universal standard of gender. It is entirely culturally dependent.
 
Alex99 said:
I can only imagine, but my understanding has been that some people can feel neither inherently male or female and regularly move between feeling like the two, or in other instances, may not feel like either, at all.

It's something I don't think a person will ever understand without experiencing it to some degree, and as it makes absolutely no difference to my life whatsoever if someone identifies as one particular gender, two genders, or neither, I'm more than happy for them to live their lives as they feel is appropriate for them. Additionally, if there are things that can be changed to make their lives easier, or to make them feel more comfortable in public settings, such as changing announcements from starting, "ladies and gentlemen," I'm more than happy for these changes to be made.
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Ultimately, I'm of the belief of "live your life as you please without being a cnut". I just struggle to find the logic in something like not being able to identify with a gender. And I think there's got to be a line drawn somewhere before some weirdos start taking it way too far. (I'm not caucasian. I feel black so include me in ...)
 
Adebesi said:
As long as nobody jumps down your throat or starts a Twitter campaign against you if you stand up to address a crowd and without thinking blurt our "ladies and gentlemen."

I guess that's the worry. Not that people might change the words to be inclusive, but that anyone who forgets to do it, or didnt know they were supposed to do it, will be pilloried for it. Not saying that is a big risk, and im sure when the Twitter hordes come after you it wont be for something innocent and trivial, but some people might worry they could say the wrong thing accidentally and then its game over.
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Yeah, there has to be give and take. We should all make an effort not to offend and not to take offence. Which is not to say there's anything wrong with gently steering someone in the right direction.
 
SaintTresano said:
Ultimately, I'm of the belief of "live your life as you please without being a cnut". I just struggle to find the logic in something like not being able to identify with a gender. And I think there's got to be a line drawn somewhere before some weirdos start taking it way too far. (I'm not caucasian. I feel black so include me in ...)
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Again, Napoleon. Individual views get ignored. Only lots of people having the same experience can cause changes in society.
 
SaintTresano said:
Ultimately, I'm of the belief of "live your life as you please without being a cnut". I just struggle to find the logic in something like not being able to identify with a gender. And I think there's got to be a line drawn somewhere before some weirdos start taking it way too far. (I'm not caucasian. I feel black so include me in ...)
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Already been done.
 
JustAFan said:
Well what is that standard definition then? Is it set in stone or is it something that could change as we learn more and more about what it is to be human and all that being human entails?
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Google definitions show it as the state of being male or female. For the most part, definitions are pretty set in stone. We may just have to coin a new term in place of gender.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
It's not possible to give a short answer to that, so I'll see if I can find them.

EDIT - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/hello-mr-president-im-non-binary.416709/

In there, somewhere.
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First of all, then person in the OP video looks and sounds female and I would have no doubt referred to her as she if I ever came across her. But I digress.

I read your first post and thought it was interesting. I can actually relate, even. I know I act way more masculine around the guys and way more feminine around ladies. I just hate gossip, though. And looking back on myself as a young child, I had an aura of femininity about me, at least enough to be teased a lot for being gay. To this day, I know I'm a male who's got a feminine side at times. I do wonder if my childhood femininity was encouraged, that I would be speaking to you today as a woman — the whole nature/nurture debate. Hard to tell about a poster online, as I'd have to meet you in person. I've definitely come across guys who gave off that sort of impression you described in that thread... about not knowing if you fancy them or not.
 
SaintTresano said:
Google definitions show it as the state of being male or female. For the most part, definitions are pretty set in stone. We may just have to coin a new term in place of gender.
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But there you have it. What is that state then? Is it permanent for each person? Can it change? Does the definition say that all people have to be one or the other? Or is the term itself too generic to adequately define part of human existence?

I don't have the answers, I will guarantee I don't even fully understand gender, gender fluidity, etc. The point is that the so called standard definitions and assumptions do not seem to fit everyone and we are becoming more aware and accepting of that.
 
JustAFan said:
But there you have it. What is that state then? Is it permanent for each person? Can it change? Does the definition say that all people have to be one or the other? Or is the term itself too generic to adequately define part of human existence?

I don't have the answers, I will guarantee I don't even fully understand gender, gender fluidity, etc. The point is that the so called standard definitions and assumptions do not seem to fit everyone and we are becoming more aware and accepting of that.
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The or keyword implies that.
 
SaintTresano said:
The or keyword implies that.
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Not necessarily. I have often been asked either/or questions and my answer has been neither. Being given two options is not the same as saying those are the only two options available.

Of course then we can get into the whole debate about gender traits and whether they are truly specific to a gender or social constructs of what characteristics a gender should be.

It's complicated and often confusing. Especially for those of us old enough to have been brought up with the idea that you are either male or female and that certain things apply to each gender. Luckily we as humans have the ability to learn and adapt.
 
JustAFan said:
Not necessarily. I have often been asked either/or questions and my answer has been neither. Being given two options is not the same as saying those are the only two options available.

Of course then we can get into the whole debate about gender traits and whether they are truly specific to a gender or social constructs of what characteristics a gender should be.

It's complicated and often confusing. Especially for those of us old enough to have been brought up with the idea that you are either male or female and that certain things apply to each gender. Luckily we as humans have the ability to learn and adapt.
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It's been mentioned in this thread, but I think a spectrum of masculinity/femininity would be apt.
 
For those who say this is a good thing; What about the term 'homo sapiens' then? Should we change all those too seeing as homo means man in latin?

Not trying to be funny or smart by the way, just curious what your stance on that is.
 
Vato said:
For those who say this is a good thing; What about the term 'homo sapiens' then? Should we change all those too seeing as homo means man in latin?

Not trying to be funny or smart by the way, just curious what your stance on that is.
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No.
 
Vato said:
For those who say this is a good thing; What about the term 'homo sapiens' then? Should we change all those too seeing as homo means man in latin?

Not trying to be funny or smart by the way, just curious what your stance on that is.
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For now at least most people are comfortable referring to things like man kind, since it refers to the entire species regardless of gender. In the future who knows.

I am sure someplace there are those who disagree.
 
JustAFan said:
For now at least most people are comfortable referring to things like man kind, since it refers to the entire species regardless of gender. In the future who knows.

I am sure someplace there are those who disagree.
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Damn straight, there is.

(Whoops, I said "straight", meaning correct. That's probably another can of worms)
 
though from time-to-time, well-meaning staff may still use the term 'ladies and gentlemen.

If this happens frequently, we will issue reminders to staff
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Title needs to be changed, it isn't even a question any more.
 
JustAFan said:
Remember reading some place or maybe it was in some comedy sketch about some wopeople (to avoid the word women) who insisted on calling it HERstruation instead of MENstruation.
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New to me. I like that.
 
Cannot possibly believe somebody would be outraged/insulted by the 'welcome ladies and gentlemen'. Genuinely.

Sounds like a 'please, look at me' plea to me.
 
Greetings homogeneous clump, this is your insidious institutional dehumanisation speaking.

This change is likely to provide a net good and I think it's worth doing, but I am something of a cultural-progress skeptic and feel regret that the losses are rarely considered along the road to Utopia. Happy Holidays I personally dislike. Ladies and gentlemen had never been a particularly inclusive phrase to begin with. At least now the chavs, chavettes and genderqueer yobos will feel included.
 
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