Where as you are...?
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Sean Penn = Scut Farkus.
Fair.Fanning the flames.
I just thought he was being an attention seeking weirdo by smoking. I remember some naff punk rocker being on a UK comedy show and lighting up and being rightly ridiculed for it.
Great actor imo. He's completely detached from society and does whatever he wants. Definitely not PC.
Yep. I even like his directing.
Still, his hair in that photo reminds me of Scut Farkus' raccoon hat (from A Christmas Story).
Still, his hair in that photo reminds me of Scut Farkus' raccoon hat (from A Christmas Story).
Claims of free speech crisis on campuses ‘exaggerated’, say MPs
Allegations that ‘snowflake’ students are routinely restricting freedom of speech are overblown, says parliamentary inquiry
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/claims-free-speech-crisis-campuses-exaggerated-say-mps
Allegations that ‘snowflake’ students are routinely restricting freedom of speech are overblown, says parliamentary inquiry
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/claims-free-speech-crisis-campuses-exaggerated-say-mps
I guess it was inevitable really. There's been a bit of a kerfuffle about Apu from the Simpsons.
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...nse-to-apu-racism-row-criticised-as-toothless
jesus Pogue you got there first
jesus Pogue you got there first
Sorry 'bout that. Your link is better though. More detail.
Having watched the documentary that Hari Kondabolu produced it's a valid point of view. More to do with the lack of cultural figures of Indian background on TV. I think The Simpsons response to it was quite weak particularly using Lisa Simpson to deliver the message of "It's PC gone mad!" when they could have been a bit more nuanced.
Could you elaborate a bit on what point it is?
I kind of summed it up in the next sentence. However the broader point of the doc was about the misrepresentation of marginalised groups with Apu and the Simpsons used by the filmaker to provide context from his own personal viewpoint. He made an interesting point in the film of how the accent of Apu is very similar to all the "white guys who used to make fun of his Dad's accent" and it's definitely something I've seen happening.
For Indians specifically, the documentary did highlight the issue of when Apu first came about, he was the only representation of Indians in America and so for most people he was the only access point they had and hence all the "Come again" and bad accent jokes at the likes of the filmaker growing up. You could point the fact that Simpsons take the piss out of everyone and they even bought it up in the Apu's nephew episode when the highlighted what a caricuture the Italian chef character is but we have and had plenty of representation of Italian Americans.
The filmaker did say he was a big fan of Simpsons circa when it was genuinely good, just was pointing certain flaws which is fair enough.
Anyway I'd recommend watching the doc to anyone before outrightly dismissing it as PC gone mad.
As stereotypes go, though, it’s fairly affectionate. Apu always comes across quite well, from what I remember. Certainly compared to most other Simpsons characters.
Coincidentally I was recently listening to Adam Buxton chatting with Romesh Ranganathan about stereotypical SE Asian accents in popular culture. They brought up Apu but decided they’d let him slide because they had so much goodwill for the show. In the absence of any malice it does seem a bit much to get worked up about.
The Simpsons response is interesting. Basically doubled down on “Pc gone mad”. Ballsy move, if nothing else.
I also had the same view of it being an affectionate one as things go before I saw the documentary. But again I think the broader point is about if people ONLY see you as the stereotype then it becomes an issue.
Here's a small clip from the film that shows the issue it raises.
Your point about Romesh Ranganathan is an interesting one and add the fact that I also wasn't that bothered by Apu either. I suspect we're seeing a difference between Americans of Indian origin and Brits of Indian origin. The ties between UK and India are far stronger there are greater cultural links and so there are far more things to associate Indians in Britain with than Apu, probably wasn't the case in the States.
I'm not a huge fan of the Simpsons response. They used Lisa Simpson, the character that fell out of love with Malibu Stacey dolls because of its inherent sexism, as their spokesman for "PC gone mad". Doesn't make sense for me.
I'd imagine it also speaks to changing social/cultural norms in a lot of respects from when the show started airing till now. Without having an expert knowledge of the TV landscape when The Simpsons started, it obviously got a lot of attention for its style of comedy and I'd imagine a white American family having friends from an array of different social, cultural and ethnic backgrounds was in itself seen as quite progressive and forward-thinking. As always, times move on, and that diversity is sort of expected now, so people will (rightfully) look deeper and think not only whether shows/films etc have diversity, but how that diversity is being portrayed within said film.
I've never found Apu particularly offensive and he's been used well as a character and given development etc, to the point where he's certainly moved beyond any initial stereotype even if he's one of the less funny secondary characters on the show, but I do think that with the "Thank you, come again," joke and a few others there was supposed to be a certain element of entertainment coming through the accent alone. Which would perhaps be problematic, if that's how people have read it. Or maybe we're just thinking too much about a cartoon. I dunno.
Nice job by the writers to troll with Lisa of all characters.
This article explains pretty well why their response was stupid - https://www.npr.org/sections/monkey...he-simpsons-to-the-problem-with-apu-drop-dead
Look at Groundskeeper Willie, they've made him out as a drunken, violent, socially isolated kilt-wearer almost incapable of human speech. Aye.
At least the last point in that article is correct: We have heard how we have hurt people, and we honestly don't care.
In other words: welcome to comedy.
In other words: welcome to comedy.
They did seem to acknowledge the real truth in that bit, given they're basically saying "this show has gone on way too long."
The point of the documentary though was that there have been other representations of Scotsman in the media outside of Groundskeeper Willie in the The Simpsons while Apu for a very long time was the only representation of South Asian in America. It goes beyond just The Simpsons and and Apu.
Finally my moment to shine in a situation that pertains to me. As a Caribbean Indian, I can safely say “FFS why do these offended PC people need to ruin everything”
APU is one of the more better portrayed characters on the Simpson’s. Kind, business owner, has a degree etc. This is an absolute joke. Are parody characters going to become outlawed now? It’s all in good humor.
APU is one of the more better portrayed characters on the Simpson’s. Kind, business owner, has a degree etc. This is an absolute joke. Are parody characters going to become outlawed now? It’s all in good humor.
That's not the fault of the Simpson's though. It's not their obligation to filter their character stereotypes based on how represented groups might be on tv in general.
And this is another situation where you can be absolutely sure that far, far more Indians will love the show, including Apu, than either find the character offensive or think he's a malign entity on television.
Would love to know exactly what the writers are supposed to do to please the microscopic minority... write off the character and replace him with a 'non-stereotypical' South Asian? Completely revamp Apu so that he is no longer Apu? Either of which will grossly offend the vast majority of viewers for how utterly nonsensical it would be.
This is all pretty much covered in the documentary. The filmaker even says he was a fan of the Simpsons when it was good. It's a lot more complicated than just "Apu is racist and BAN him" which is what many seem to think the film is about.
Have you seen it? I'm thinking of giving it a go as it sounds quite interesting and seems to have positive reviews.
Yeah I watched it, helped me understand where the filmaker was coming from of as I had similarly just seen as Apu an affectionate clownish figure. It provides a different perspective of how South Asians in the US may have seen the character and the impact it has had on their lives.
I'm still largely on the fence on how I view Apu but I get where the people complaining about him are coming from. Certainly isn't worthy of this thread.
I’m a british Indian and love Apu. Anyone complaining about him really is politically correctness gone mad!
I get the point, Apu, the Indian in the Big Bang theory, probably more examples. This Indian caricature is commonly used. However Kal Pen usually plays cool Indians (House, How I met your mother, Harold and Kumar). Dev Patel is getting good American roles too. People do need to stop complaining.
Note, I haven’t watched the documentary.
Are there any Indian outraged about Apu here ?
I don't think the guy that originally brought it up was "outraged", just highlighted it being anachronistic at this time (which the Simpsons seem to have tacitly admitted with the weird Lisa bit) and then thought the response was something of a cop-out. As far as I can see anyway.
Yeah, people seem to be acting as if people are universally arguing for The Simpsons to be boycotted on the basis of this documentary when in reality it's a much more nuanced discussion on the representation of a larger group within the show. Again (people seem to also be ignoring this) the guy who made the documentary admits he's a big Simpsons fan, but that he's just presenting a view as to whether one particular aspect of the show is problematic and perhaps representative of a certain problem. And it's not even to say that Apu's universally a bad character - even if he's not the funniest in the show he's got some genuinely interesting episodes that tackle issues like immigration, assimilation in an interesting and entertaining way that most shows probably weren't doing decades back.
And while comedy's goal is obviously to entertain, there's a difference between being offensive and perpetuating a lazy stereotype. A comedian can make an interesting and nuanced joke on racial issues that involves making a comment that would (out of context) be construed as a somewhat offensive remark; to the contrary a comedian who comes out in blackface and just makes a lot of offensive jokes with no wider context is (obviously) going to be lambasted for it. And again - obviously Apu's nowhere near that level because he's a fairly well-developed character (or was, I haven't seen about the last five seasons of the show) but a discussion on the issue is fine.
Pretty much spot on. I'm now firmly on the I wish people would watch the bleeding documentary before joining the "PC gone mad" crowd. There are some people in the documentary like Kal Penn who holds a grudge against The Simpsons because of Apu (@Andy_Cole, kind funny you just mentioned him) but most weren't that vociferous.
There's also likely a big difference I suspect how South Asians in the US were treated than in the UK which I hadn't even thought about till discussing it in this thread.
I'd agree with this (specifically in terms of portrayal on TV). We've had British Asian characters in Eastenders since it started thirty years ago and when I was growing up Goodness Gracious Me was one of the most popular comedy programs.
The Simpsons has been shit for-almost-ever at this point, the snarky Lisa dismissal is in keeping with the overall quality.
I think Apu was always at least a slightly dodgy caricature and it's a point worth noting too, in my opinion.
I still love the old shows and the old Apu character. The objections I've seen have seemed reasonable enough. Few seem to be calling for the burning of the negatives.
Also it's possible to acknowledge negative aspects of a thing without throwing a whole character/work in the bin.
I think Apu was always at least a slightly dodgy caricature and it's a point worth noting too, in my opinion.
I still love the old shows and the old Apu character. The objections I've seen have seemed reasonable enough. Few seem to be calling for the burning of the negatives.
Also it's possible to acknowledge negative aspects of a thing without throwing a whole character/work in the bin.
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Well to be fair, in adult cartoons like that most minorities are usually heavily characterized. Scots are angry and speak with a thick accent, irish are belligerent drunks, Italians are basically Fonzie, Indians have a thick accent and in Apu's case that's the only negative stereotype i could think of. Besides, India has a pretty massive film industry of their own so it's not like there is a lack of representation if you look at the right places.
Homer is overweight, lazy, ignorant and an alcoholic. Characters in adult cartoons are generally terrible people.
