Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

[Nighteyes]

So what are you trying to say? Let's implicate a religion in the incident, but let's not call it terrorism?

Tbh it is an absurd argument. Anti-gay sentiment is not specific to Islam, so I don't see why you have a big problem with the naming conventions. ISIS is a acknowledged terrorist group and calling it a ISIS orcestered attack is more than sufficient. Why the need to focus on on general Islam here?

Where have I said it's exclusive to Islam? You're reading what you want to read. Its a problem with all religions and I have said that multiple times. In this particular case it's obviously about Islam however. There's no getting away from that.

 

[syrian_scholes]

1) That's very interesting. Is that one of those instances in religion where "faith comes in to play"?

2) This isn't a thread about the war in Syria, so I wouldn't expect to see much conversation on that issue. I think what is happening in Syria is terrible, and would gladly discuss that in a thread about that topic.

3) "Except maybe in the Arab Gulf"... your point? The legitimacy factor is still there.

Here's some verses from the Quran about peace:
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

"Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. (But) the Penalty on the Day Of Judgement will be doubled To him, and he will dwell Therein in ignominy. (The Noble Quran, 25:68-69)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)"

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: 'O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.' (The Noble Quran, 18:86)" In this Noble Verse we see that if the enemy wants to do us harm, then we must punish those who did us harm. Otherwise, we must treat the enemy civilians and the innocents with kindness.

Noble Verse 45:14 "Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned."

Noble Verse 5:32 "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty honors all the innocent souls that He created. Killing any innocent soul is so hated by Allah Almighty that He considers it as a crime against all of Mankind.

Noble Verse 25:68 "Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty considers the innocent soul "sacred". He will punish those who kill the innocent souls (by throwing them in hell).

Noble Verse 2:182 "But if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him: For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Noble Verse 2:224 "And make not God's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for God is One Who heareth and knoweth all things."

I'd say, this Noble Verse clearly proves my point: Let us look at Noble Verse 8:61 "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)." In this Noble Verse, we clearly see Allah Almighty ordering us, the Muslims, to incline toward peace when the enemy inclines toward peace. This proves that Islam is not a religion for wars, but for peace.

Allah Almighty orders Muslims in the Noble Quran to allow total freedom of choice to people and to never try to force them into Islam; "Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)" The Noble Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error...(2:256)"

 

[MJJ]

So did anyone check the mental health/background history of the guy? Like we do with every non-Muslim attacker.

 

[syrian_scholes]

@Carolina Red

1. Terrorism is above all murder. Murder is strictly forbidden in the Qur’an. Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

2. If the motive for terrorism is religious, it is impermissible in Islamic law. It is forbidden to attempt to impose Islam on other people. The Qur’an says, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error.” (-The Cow, 2:256). Note that this verse was revealed in Medina in 622 AD or after and was never abrogated by any other verse of the Quran. Islam’s holy book forbids coercing people into adopting any religion. They have to willingly choose it.

3. Islamic law forbids aggressive warfare. The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

4. In the Islamic law of war, not just any civil engineer can declare or launch a war. It is the prerogative of the duly constituted leader of the Muslim community that engages in the war. Nowadays that would be the president or prime minister of the state, as advised by the mufti or national jurisconsult.

5. The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)

6. Terrorism or hirabah is forbidden in Islamic law, which groups it with brigandage, highway robbery and extortion rackets– any illicit use of fear and coercion in public spaces for money or power. The principle of forbidding the spreading of terror in the land is based on the Qur’an (Surah al-Ma’ida 5:33–34). Prominent [pdf] Muslim legal scholar Sherman Jackson writes, “The Spanish Maliki jurist Ibn `Abd al-Barr (d. 464/ 1070)) defines the agent of hiraba as ‘Anyone who disturbs free passage in the streets and renders them unsafe to travel, striving to spread corruption in the land by taking money, killing people or violating what God has made it unlawful to violate is guilty of hirabah . . .”

7. Sneak attacks are forbidden. Muslim commanders must give the enemy fair warning that war is imminent. The Prophet Muhammad at one point gave 4 months notice.

8. The Prophet Muhammad counseled doing good to those who harm you and is said to have commanded, “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

9. The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.”[5:8]

10. The Qur’an assures Christians and Jews of paradise if they believe and do good works, and commends Christians as the best friends of Muslims. I wrote elsewhere, “Dangerous falsehoods are being promulgated to the American public. The Quran does not preach violence against Christians.

Quran 5:69 says (Arberry): “Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.”

In other words, the Quran promises Christians and Jews along with Muslims that if they have faith and works, they need have no fear in the afterlife. It is not saying that non-Muslims go to hell– quite the opposite.

When speaking of the 7th-century situation in the Muslim city-state of Medina, which was at war with pagan Mecca, the Quran notes that the polytheists and some Arabian Jewish tribes were opposed to Islam, but then goes on to say:

5:82. ” . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers [Muslims] those who say: ‘We are Christians.’ That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud.”

So the Quran not only does not urge Muslims to commit violence against Christians, it calls them “nearest in love” to the Muslims! The reason given is their piety, their ability to produce holy persons dedicated to God, and their lack of overweening pride.

http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

If a "Christian State in ______" was committing acts of terror in the name of a perverted form of Christianity, would general Christianity not become a legitimate part of the conversation?

Why? It would still be a terrorist group. Despite it's name ISIS is not a recognized as a 'state', so it still is a radical terrorist group, one of the numerous existing currently. Unless you are somehow implying ISIS is representative of the entire religion....

Where have I said it's exclusive to Islam? You're reading what you want to read. Its a problem with all religions and I have said that multiple times. In this particular case it's obviously about Islam however. There's no getting away from that.

Surely that is a obvious and superfluous? Not as if anyone is trying to hide the fact.

 

[2mufc0]

As a Muslim in the west who has basic understanding of the religion i'd like to make a few points regarding whether what this degenerate did was Islamic or not.

Firstly vigilante type punishments are not permissible, there must be a trial by the state and then punishment carried out by the state. Secondly it is not permissible for a Muslim living in a foreign land to disobey the laws of the country they are living in, in worst case scenario if the country you live in does not allow you to perform the pillars of the religion you are told to leave, not shoot people or try to force your laws through. The killer in this case hasn't followed any of these principles, and actions would be rejected by the majority of Muslims.

This guy was reportedly not even religious, the problem with these 'lone wolf' attackers is that they don't go to the mosques, they don't study the books and don't integrate with the local or even the Muslim community. They are normally self taught and brainwashed online.

With regards to the homophobia issue, let's not all beat around the bush here and pretend the west is not homophobic either. I went to a white middle class school and it was rampant and still is. Not saying it makes things OK but we need a little perspective here. Yes there is an issue with religion here and something needs to be done about un-orthodox Islamic teachings, maybe more online policing would help.

Before someone asks, my view on homosexuality as a Muslim in the west, is that i have a lot of respect of the LGBT community who share a common goal with me as a minority to be treated fairly and equally. Yes i'll admit i don't see eye to eye with same sex relations but doesn't mean i don't respect the right for them to have it. At the same time a gay person most likely does not agree with my religious beliefs, and he has the right too that too, no big deal as long as there is a mutual respect as human beings.

 

[Smores]

What do you mean by homophobic? I understand it to be an irrational dislike of a group of people just because they are gay. Mainstream religions are not homophobic, but they mostly maintain that marriage is between a man and a woman for life and sex outside marriage is wrong. This by definition leads them to be against gay marriage and gay sexual relationships - it also leads them to be against heterosexual relationships outside marriage. Being against gay marriage isn't being homophobic, it's about the definition of marriage. People like the man you describe at your wife's office have a problem, they can hang it onto a religion if they want but there's no basis for that.

There are many people (both gay and straight) who have a Christian faith but don't always live the way their Church would like them to live, I'm one of them - I got divorced and then remarried. I accept that's not right in the eyes of my own Church and I acknowledge that it's at odds with their definition of marriage.

Let's not make this tragedy and the deaths of all these innocent people into something other than what it is - the actions of one violent and troubled man, who may or may not have thought he was acting in the name of his religion but clearly wasn't doing that at all, he was just full of hate.

I think you're inferring some arguments i wasn't really making here. I too am inclined to believe these are acts of mentally unstable and not religious folks.

My point was it's not just Islam that is homophobic and I don't agree with your conclusion that it works backwards from the definition of marriage in Christianity and that it isn't actually homophobic. Leviticus as one example has passages saying those committing homosexual acts shall be put to death.

Now as I said the majority in modern society don't practice their religion based on extreme doctrine. It's only those that are radical in their devotion to scripture that would carry out such acts. It being part of a religious text isn't enough to cause such acts, the problem is much more complex and these elements are much more cult.

Blaming a text as some here seem to be doing it lazy analysis of the issue.

 

[Carolina Red]

Here's some verses from the Quran about peace:

Look, you may not realize it, but you are preaching to the choir about Islam with me. I teach my students that Islam is as peaceful a religion as Christianity or any other religion, tell them that the terrorists aren't "real Muslims" but are people who have used evil to twist a religious text to say what they want it to say, and readily point out things like the Crusades, the Bible used as justification for slavery, etc. to show how real religion can easily be perverted by those who hate... but the fact of the matter is, we are at the point in history where Islam is being perverted and used by those who hate.

My question is centered on this... What can the Islamic world do differently to help stop its faith from being perverted in such a way?

 

[Carolina Red]

Why? It would still be a terrorist group. Despite it's name ISIS is not a recognized as a 'state', so it still is a radical terrorist group, one of the numerous existing currently. Unless you are somehow implying ISIS is representative of the entire religion....

I have clearly not done that. See my response to @syrian_scholes above.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Look, you may not realize it, but you are preaching to the choir about Islam with me. I teach my students that Islam is as peaceful a religion as Christianity or any other religion, tell them that the terrorists aren't "real Muslims" but are people who have used evil to twist a religious text to say what they want it to say, and readily point out things like the Crusades, the Bible used as justification for slavery, etc. to show how real religion can easily be perverted by those who hate... but the fact of the matter is, we are at the point in history where Islam is being perverted and used by those who hate.

My question is centered on this... What can the Islamic world do differently to help stop its faith from being perverted in such a way?

Aye I was responding to the video fearless posted so had to make it clear it was false what was said in that video, If the islamic world is united they can easily defeat isis imo, we also need better more outspoken scholars who can debunk isis's ideals to those young muslims who are following them blindly, the problem lies way too deep tbh.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Some footage from inside of the club during shooting. Nothing graphic, but still quite uncomfortable with knowing what happened.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

So did anyone check the mental health/background history of the guy? Like we do with every non-Muslim attacker.

His ex-wife says nutter, which is sufficient for me.

 

[2mufc0]

My question is centered on this... What can the Islamic world do differently to help stop its faith from being perverted in such a way?

The problem with these extremists is that they don't even see the mainstream Muslims as real 'Muslims', they refer to us as 'Munafiqs' (hypocrites) and our blood is lawful too for them.

So the issue simply is they won't listen to us. I think more needs to be done to cut off access to these extremist groups/information and ISIS type groups need to go.

But politicians are too busy playing proxy war games to do anything about it.

 

[Carolina Red]

Aye I was responding to the video fearless posted so had to make it clear it was false what was said in that video, If the islamic world is united they can easily defeat isis imo, we also need better more outspoken scholars who can debunk isis's ideals to those young muslims who are following them blindly, the problem lies way too deep tbh.

Why hasn't the Islamic world, specifically those in the Middle East near Syria, rallied their military power to defeat ISIS?

Do you feel that a greater movement toward secular government would help?

 

[MJJ]

His ex-wife says nutter, which is sufficient for me.

Would have thought that would render the debate about the influence of islam on his actions useless personally but guess people have agendas.

 

[Carolina Red]

The problem with these extremists is that they don't even see the mainstream Muslims as real 'Muslims', they refer to us as 'Munafiqs' (hypocrites) and our blood is lawful too for them.

So the issue simply is they won't listen to us. I think more needs to be done to cut off access to these extremist groups/information and ISIS type groups need to go.

1) It reminds me of the era of religious warfare in Europe between different sects of Christianity. Unfortunately, the only thing that brought that era to an end was the cataclysm of the Thirty Years' War.

2) I agree to that.

3) I ask you the same question, in regards to some of the laws that some Islamic nations have on the books... do you think a shift to secular government help?

 

[Siorac]

Spoiler

Yeah, I agree, ish. That WAS and HAS started to change because many Churches allow gay weddings, many now allow women Priests. Attitudes were and are changing on this all the time, it's not perfect but it's a damn lot better than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Yes there will always be a problem with right wing lunatics like the Evangelicals, and of course many Radical Muslims, but it doesn't help when there is an underlying problem and that is this was a mass shooting, the only difference between this and others is that this had a more specific target. Yet again we are back to guns.

Yes the homophobic aspect is HUGELY important, I wouldn't ever want to think otherwise, but the other problem is guns, and then religion, so you have three problems, how do you tackle them all?

Firstly, I look at the positives, and that would be, as I said, attitudes towards the LGBT community have changed massively, I would think the vast majority of people are now far more accepting and understanding than before, with education and acceptance, and the older generations dying off, this can only ever improve.

Religion. Well society needs to continue to shun their teachings and tell them they are wrong. Just look at this thread, a very religious poster, who is loved and extremely well respected on this site is @Penna, she is religious, but not homophobic as she has posted in this thread. Then there are many Muslim posters who have posted here, I know a few that post here and are 100% not homophobic either, so it's easy to see why THEY would get offended when people just blame Religion or blame Muslims, when it's clearly not as simple as that and not every religious person is the same, whatever faith they may be.

So again, with education and pressure and time, things will continue to change, but it won't happen overnight. Look at the recent bathroom laws passed in the states, it's easy to see progression there, and also see where there is resistance to the change, pressure needs to be applied to those resisting to show that their views are outdated and not tolerated in modern society. You can have a belief, but you also need tolerance and acceptance of others.

So where are we back to again? GUNS! See why the argument keeps coming back to this?

Guns is a relatively simple answer in the short term and something solid that can be banned, not just something is someone's head like a belief that needs to be changed. First do what you can to what you can touch and feel and that is ban the fecking things! Then you move to attitudes, more laws and further education and eventually things will change with guns too. As I said before, the will of the people is there, this is down to money and politics. It benefits lots of people to sell more guns. The NRA love situations and events like yesterday as more people will go out and buy more guns. The trouble is though, more guns really doesn't seem to be helping anyone does it? The only thing that is increasing is more mass shootings, more than one a day, more guns really doesn't seem to be reducing or stopping them at all. So let's try the alternative...........


As I said, I really don't want to seem flippant or dismissive of any of the other issues here, they are extremely important, but attitudes ARE on a whole changing, and it will take time, laws are helping and more education will too, and i'm really trying to try and put a positive look on things because without that, and without the will to try or people wanting to make a change, then the alternative doesn't really bear thinking about.

Oh I fully agree about the gun issue. I see it as hopeless because of the American attitudes; what the Australians did after Port Arthur will never happen. It should but it won't. Not when people actually use these types of events to promote the "guns for everyone!!!" thinking.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The problem with these extremists is that they don't even see the mainstream Muslims as real 'Muslims', they refer to us as 'Munafiqs' (hypocrites) and our blood is lawful too for them.

So the issue simply is they won't listen to us. I think more needs to be done to cut off access to these extremist groups/information and ISIS type groups need to go.

I'd argue for a clear separation of church and state. The pervasiveness of Islam in every aspect of life gives groups like ISIS a lot of power to bastardize it to their advantage. We can, historically, see the same with Christianity. Once religion becomes mostly a personal thing it loses its power for those ideologies that wish to twist or distort it to promote their cause.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Would have thought that would render the debate about the influence of islam on his actions useless personally but guess people have agendas.

Some nutters go the religious route but yeah, I get what you're saying.

 

[2mufc0]

1) It reminds me of the era of religious warfare in Europe between different sects of Christianity. Unfortunately, the only thing that brought that era to an end was the cataclysm of the Thirty Years' War.

2) I agree to that.

3) I ask you the same question, in regards to some of the laws that some Islamic nations have on the books... do you think a shift to secular government help?

I think secularising Middle Eastern countries has already been tried and it hasn't gone particularly well, if it is to happen, it has to happen organically and not forced upon.

And tbh those issues are for those nations to sort out, it has nothing to do with me. What i do have a say in is what happens in the country i am in and you are free to quiz me about that, i'm not an expert on what happens in other Muslim countries and why they operate the way they do.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Why hasn't the Islamic world, specifically those in the Middle East near Syria, rallied their military power to defeat ISIS?

Do you feel that a greater movement toward secular government would help?

People in protests were asking for a secular government(most of them) and the situation in Syria is a bit different, our regime is a minority ruling the majority and giving the minority too much power over the majority, all we want is equal rights, now I can answer your first question, countries around Syria:
Turkey:their role has been highlighted as negative, all they care about is shutting down the kurds
Jordan:their government is also very crooked
Lebanon:have their own problems
Palestine:see Lebanon
Iran:see Turkey but they are fighting alongside the Syrian regime so same shite different smell
Iraq:see Lebanon
Gulf: see Jordan

 

[Carolina Red]

I'd argue for a clear separation of church and state. The pervasiveness of Islam in every aspect of life gives groups like ISIS a lot of power to bastardize it to their advantage. We can, historically, see the same with Christianity. Once religion becomes mostly a personal thing it loses its power for those ideologies that wish to twist or distort it to promote their cause.

This is what I'm getting at by asking about secular government.

 

[Carolina Red]

I think secularising Middle Eastern countries has already been tried and it hasn't gone particularly well, if it is to happen, it has to happen organically and not forced upon.

And tbh those issues are for those nations to sort out, it has nothing to do with me. What i do have a say in is what happens in the country i am in and you are free to quiz me about that, i'm not an expert on what happens in other Muslim countries and why they operate the way they do.

Just asking your opinion. That's what this forum is for, right?

 

[Carolina Red]

People in protests were asking for a secular government(most of them) and the situation in Syria is a bit different, our regime is a minority ruling the majority and giving the minority too much power over the majority, all we want is equal rights, now I can answer your first question, countries around Syria:
Turkey:their role has been highlighted as negative, all they care about is shutting down the kurds
Jordan:their government is also very crooked
Lebanon:have their own problems
Palestine:see Lebanon
Iran:see Turkey but they are fighting alongside the Syrian regime so same shite different smell
Iraq:see Lebanon
Gulf: see Jordan

Fair enough. In that case, what parts of the Islamic world could rally together to stop them, as you mentioned?

 

[MJJ]

I'd argue for a clear separation of church and state. The pervasiveness of Islam in every aspect of life gives groups like ISIS a lot of power to bastardize it to their advantage. We can, historically, see the same with Christianity. Once religion becomes mostly a personal thing it loses its power for those ideologies that wish to twist or distort it to promote their cause.

Am in favour of this too basically because you cant argue against religious laws even if they are wrongly interpreted.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

This is what I'm getting at by asking about secular government.

As much as I'm for it, it seems like it would be a massive theological problem for Islam. Diminishing the influence of God in people's everyday life could call into question every element of the religion. Might be too slippery a slope to entertain.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Fair enough. In that case, what parts of the Islamic world could rally together to stop them, as you mentioned?

had the Gulf not been corrupt as feck, alongside maybe Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey, the issue would have been solved.

 

[2mufc0]

Just asking your opinion. That's what this forum is for, right?

Sorry i just re read that and it sounds pretty harsh. I didn't mean it that way, it's a question that is asked often to Muslims in the west and tbf there's not a lot we know about it and it wouldn't be fair to comment on things we don't have a clue about. Again apologies for coming across harshly.

 

[Carolina Red]

had the Gulf not been corrupt as feck, alongside maybe Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey, the issue would have been solved.

Those 3 and Saudi Arabia are who I expected to handle this for us. GHW Bush was able to get an Arab coalition put together to help expel Saddam from Kuwait, so I was optimistic.

 

[Carolina Red]

Sorry i just re read that and it sounds pretty harsh. I didn't mean it that way, it's a question that is asked often to Muslims in the west and tbf there's not a lot we know about it and it wouldn't be fair to comment on things we don't have a clue about. Again apologies for coming across harshly.

No worries man. I kinda know how you feel I guess... (see the discussion on guns lol)

 

[syrian_scholes]

Those 3 and Saudi Arabia are who I expected to handle this for us. GHW Bush was able to get an Arab coalition put together to help expel Saddam from Kuwait, so I was optimistic.

Seeing the situation from Syria and the silence from the Arab world in particular about it, I don't think there's anything fixing it anytime soon, maybe someone will wake up soon and say we should do something about this but until this day Syrians alone will never fix the problem.

 

[Carolina Red]

As much as I'm for it, it seems like it would be a massive theological problem for Islam. Diminishing the influence of God in people's everyday life could call into question every element of the religion. Might be too slippery a slope to entertain.

Christianity did it so I'm optimistic!

 

[2mufc0]

Seeing the situation from Syria and the silence from the Arab world in particular about it, I don't think there's anything fixing it anytime soon, maybe someone will wake up soon and say we should do something about this but until this day Syrians alone will never fix the problem.

Unfortunately until it starts effecting these countries directly they won't do anything. Very sad state of affairs.

 

[Carolina Red]

Seeing the situation from Syria and the silence from the Arab world in particular about it, I don't think there's anything fixing it anytime soon, maybe someone will wake up soon and say we should do something about this but until this day Syrians alone will never fix the problem.

This kinda gets into the separate thread on if the world would be better of without the US's influence... and while I totally believe that by removing Saddam from power we created the power vacuum that led to ISIS...

As an American, this is why it seems like we end up having to send our soldiers all over the place. Nobody else seems to be able to handle the problem but us (granted, again, we probably created the problem anyway).

Edit: @2mufc0 also

 

[syrian_scholes]

As much as I'm for it, it seems like it would be a massive theological problem for Islam. Diminishing the influence of God in people's everyday life could call into question every element of the religion. Might be too slippery a slope to entertain.

it doesn't have to be this way, like I said having more well educated and out spoken scholars can easily help to solve the many problems lying in the islamic world, someone who can spread the true peaceful teachings to the young people, and in order for that to be effective ISIS have to be diminished.

 

[MrMarcello]

I'd argue for a clear separation of church and state. The pervasiveness of Islam in every aspect of life gives groups like ISIS a lot of power to bastardize it to their advantage. We can, historically, see the same with Christianity. Once religion becomes mostly a personal thing it loses its power for those ideologies that wish to twist or distort it to promote their cause.

Catholicism and Protestant religions had their respective reformations, Islam never has and it's too late.

 

[syrian_scholes]

This kinda gets into the separate thread on if the world would be better of without the US's influence... and while I totally believe that by removing Saddam from power we created the power vacuum that led to ISIS...

As an American, this is why it seems like we end up having to send our soldiers all over the place. Nobody else seems to be able to handle the problem but us (granted, again, we probably created the problem anyway).

Edit: @2mufc0 also

See I can't blame America for not interfering, it's more accurate to blame the corrupt Arab countries.

 

[DOTA]

Christianity did it so I'm optimistic!

Part of me thinks that's the problem. They look at the West, and what they see as a culture of hedonism, and moving away from laws born of religion seems to unleash things they don't wish to.

 

[Carolina Red]

Part of me thinks that's the problem. They look at the West, and what they see as a culture of hedonism, and moving away from laws born of religion seems to unleash things they don't wish to.

Which is why my students are so shocked to learn all of the scientific things we gained from interactions with the Islamic world in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. Islamic culture of that era helped create the modern West.

 

[DOTA]

Which is why my students are so shocked to learn all of the scientific things we gained from interactions with the Islamic world in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. Islamic culture of that era helped create the modern West.

What is it you teach, if you don't mind me asking?