Cesc is a brilliant player, the issue is trying to push him in to a team that really doesn't suit him at all without adjusting the team for him. If his directness was embraced instead it would be a different matter and he'd be back at his best.
Neymar
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Cesc is a brilliant player, the issue is trying to push him in to a team that really doesn't suit him at all without adjusting the team for him. If his directness was embraced instead it would be a different matter and he'd be back at his best.
That's a serious insult to Pedro! I hope you are not implying they are on a similar level. I would take Pedro immediately if offered to us whereas I would actually pay money to get rid off Young!
Pedro is a bit better than Young, not by as much as you are implying though.
That's precisely what I am saying. Our tiki-taka has had its day.
I have watched him many times for Barca and Spain, imho Pedro really is at least 7 levels above Young!
When Messi was out injured, Fabregas was playing so good (the whole team actually).
The Messidependance doesn't work out when he is not at his 100%.
Just like with us, when a player is more powerful than the coach, things will eventually go wrong.
I agree 100%. Tonight Messi was not merely bad, he "actively" aided Atletico. Lots of people are saying that the entire team was bad, which is not true. Neymar, Alves and Alba were quite good. Messi was atrocious, Iniesta average or even below that, Xavi average (has had his day) and Cesc ineffective in that position.
As for Messi having to be be at 100% to be helpful. Well, I am not sure if that is true, I think it's not. But last night he was at 0%. It was as if we were playing with 10 men for 90mns.
The biggest issue is how maybe the best pressing defense in history has completely disappeared in to nothingness. Neymar has an outstanding pressing game for Brazil and he scores plenty of goals and pretty much carried them to the Confed victory. I thought the reason Barcelona paid so much for him was that he had proven his ability in the high-press defense when playing for Brazil and had done outstanding there.
What was scary about Barcelona during their peak wasn't the high possession or the high line, it was that when they lost the ball they won it back instantly before you could create anything. Previously they won the ball back in 6 seconds and currently they look as weak as any other team without a press. Inviting chances over and over through out the game in a manner I haven't seen from them in more than a decade.
What was scary about Barcelona during their peak wasn't the high possession or the high line, it was that when they lost the ball they won it back instantly before you could create anything. Previously they won the ball back in 6 seconds and currently they look as weak as any other team without a press. Inviting chances over and over through out the game in a manner I haven't seen from them in more than a decade.
He had a good game especially in the first half when he seemed the only barca player who understood that the aim of football is to score. In the 2nd he joined the rest of the attackers in being pointless. That move that ends in the nutmeg and the half chance was absolute class. He shrugged of miranda, chopped adrian and nutmegged whoever(think godin) and then passed the ball. His finishing needs work though and it always has. He could've buried atleast one of his half chances.
Messi was beyond atrocious. Last week he was rubbish but last night really took the biscuit. Basically an extra atletico defender. Him and cesc played like bribed men. This team really makes it hard for messi as the have a no tolerance for any player that enters the grey area. Anyone who gets the ball there will almost always lose it and its coincidentally the same area messi loves to pick it up and run at defenders.
Messi was beyond atrocious. Last week he was rubbish but last night really took the biscuit. Basically an extra atletico defender. Him and cesc played like bribed men. This team really makes it hard for messi as the have a no tolerance for any player that enters the grey area. Anyone who gets the ball there will almost always lose it and its coincidentally the same area messi loves to pick it up and run at defenders.
I broadly agree with you, but I can't blame Cesc because he is being played out of position. And yes, Messi was virtually acting as an extra Atletico defender. Neymar should have taken an early shot when clean through in the 2nd half, or started the dribble on Courtois earlier.
Very true, and that was how they stopped counter attacks. Now they seem much more vulnerable to them
We have been hit on the counter many times in crucial games even at our peak. The big difference tonight was the Messi horror show, whereas he used to turn up big time for the big games in the past. Even last night when everyone thinks we were utter shite, we had 4-5 excellent chances we just did not take.
Im not joking, but until the 12-13 season I used to be afraid of getting hammered by ye every time we played. I remember in 10-11 we kept trying to counter attack but you pressed the ball so well and gave us little space and left di maria and Ronaldo so ineffective. I honestly felt that ye had no weakness at the time. We struggled to get out of our own half a lot of the time
Cesc was shit last week and he played in his position, was shit vs madrid with the same story and was shit again last night. The position doesn't really matter, he's simply not the sort of player that barca needs. He's had the grand total of 0 good games in every big game he's played for barca! 0! He an EPL player in a team that plays the polar opposite of how EPL teams play. Barca has to cut their losses and invest in a midfielder who can really take over from the great man.
The problem back then was that madrid had midfielders who are poor when being pressed. Khedira and Alonso couldn't under any circumstances advance play thus setting up the counter when under pressure. Inter milan(Sneijder) and Arsenal(wilshere) proved in games where the midfield could atleast get the ball out that if you can withstand the first wave then barca are vulnerable.
We also had a manager who didn't inspire or encourage much creativity. Im surprised you include Alonso in that category. I feel in the three years under mourinho he was our second best player. In moments of chaos he was so calm, cool and collected.
Maybe you are right. But how about changing our style a bit since by now everyone has learnt how to counter it? On the other hand, the option of selling Cesc is still there, there are many very rich English teams that would love to sign him.
Am I watching something other than Neymar running into someone deliberately and then kicking them?
what a dick
I think that actually hurts him, which is even more pathetic than if he overreacted.
That looks like something you'd see in Fifa when a player walks into another player then randomly falls over
Pathetic
Honestly, what the hell?!
Did anything happen to the other player?
Would love to see someone just stick one right on Neymar
Would love to see someone just stick one right on Neymar
Never realised but the guy is incredibly skinny. I don't and never have been to the gym but I've got bigger arms than him. Watching the game was quite funny especially when he kept trying to get past their tank of right back who just kept shrugging him aside.
He has been a disappointment. I know first season in Europe and still young. But he came with a lot of hype with Brazilian press hailing him as their answer to Messi. In long term he would be one of the top players but not THE top player. Don't think he is good enough for Barca to base their team around him if Messi's level starts to drop off.
He is a good player and I love watching him play sometimes. The way he dribbles is great fun to watch, but deary me I just can't stand how much he dives. He goes to the ground way too easily and way too often when there's been little contact. He's got huge potential to become a great player, just wish he stopped doing that.
I don't necessarily agree. Scored/Assisted one per game so far even if his role is in the shadow of Messi still. I think the main issue is that Barcelona has quit using their high press and he showed for Brazil that he excelled in it as it meant plenty of counter-attacks.
For Brazil he has an outstanding goal-scoring record per game, better than the likes of Messi for Argentina or Cristiano for Portugal.
Barcelona seems to ask him to stay very wide and in a very strict manner. Rarely do you see him suddenly blast towards the box as he would if he had a more free role. He has the third most successful dribblings per game after Messi and Brahimi in La Liga which at least shows he is doing the job they seem ask for him well.
He's always loved cutting inside in other teams so it seems very likely to be a direct order for him not to do it as much. If he is indeed asked to be very wide then I think he is really doing the best he can right now for a first season for a young player.
I don really care about his numbers, whenever I have watched him play, I have never seen what more he offers to Barca right now that Pedro at his peak could not and Sanchez can not. It is the same movement up front and at best he is a better finisher than Sanchez and dribbler than both. He has not really taken the mantle when it comes to creating chances against a tight defense. I thought with Messi getting too much attention, someone like him would be free to do his thing and help Barca create more. He has not really done that. Also he seems intent on dribbling past every one a lot of times instead of developing a move with others. So in that sense his dribbling is useless.
If he has to play in the middle for Barca, Messi would have to move out wide. I don't think he is good enough for such a move to happen. He will be a top player no doubt but he is the same tier right now as likes of Gotze. It is only Brazilian hype that elevated him above that.
No doubt the Brazilians overrates him, he isn't a finished product by any means. For Barcelona he hasn't been too brilliant either.
Still I believe Barcelona's current tactic is very counter-intuitive for Neymar himself. If you wanted to get the best out of Neymar you'd have a high-press like Brazil are using and also allow him complete freedom to drift all over the pitch.
His main strengths are his stamina, pace and dribbling and in Barcelona he pretty much just uses his dribbling but almost always so far out wide even when he gets past a player there is another there. I think he often gets better and better for every minute when he plays for Brazil as he tires the opponents out while he remains fit in comparison.
If he played for Bayern, Dortmund, Atletico or even Liverpool we would get to see his real ability on a club level.
Of course internationally he has already proven his worth scoring 30 goals in 47 matches which for a winger/inside forward is almost unheard of. Ronaldo(Brazil) has the exact same goals per game ratio as Neymar for the NT which shows the outstanding level he has performed at so far there.
To put those figures in perspective here is a list of NT goals per game ratio from wingers/inside forwards with worse goals per game ratios than him.
Ronaldinho 33 goals in 97 games
Messi 37 in 83
C.Ronaldo 49 in 110
Garrincha 12 in 50
Figo 32 in 127
Of course Neymar is yet to appear on the biggest stage(WC) and is nowhere near the skill level of the aforementioned lads. What they do show is that in the right system he has the ability to perform in terms of productivity.
Still I believe Barcelona's current tactic is very counter-intuitive for Neymar himself. If you wanted to get the best out of Neymar you'd have a high-press like Brazil are using and also allow him complete freedom to drift all over the pitch.
His main strengths are his stamina, pace and dribbling and in Barcelona he pretty much just uses his dribbling but almost always so far out wide even when he gets past a player there is another there. I think he often gets better and better for every minute when he plays for Brazil as he tires the opponents out while he remains fit in comparison.
If he played for Bayern, Dortmund, Atletico or even Liverpool we would get to see his real ability on a club level.
Of course internationally he has already proven his worth scoring 30 goals in 47 matches which for a winger/inside forward is almost unheard of. Ronaldo(Brazil) has the exact same goals per game ratio as Neymar for the NT which shows the outstanding level he has performed at so far there.
To put those figures in perspective here is a list of NT goals per game ratio from wingers/inside forwards with worse goals per game ratios than him.
Ronaldinho 33 goals in 97 games
Messi 37 in 83
C.Ronaldo 49 in 110
Garrincha 12 in 50
Figo 32 in 127
Of course Neymar is yet to appear on the biggest stage(WC) and is nowhere near the skill level of the aforementioned lads. What they do show is that in the right system he has the ability to perform in terms of productivity.
I don't think he plays the same role as Figo or Dinho. Both of them were more concerned with creating for others. Neymar has never really shown that he has the play-making capability of either or any of the others names in your list infact. Even C.Ronaldo before he became obsessed with scoring, showed that he could set up others plenty of times.
And it can be said for almost every attacking player out there, that given them free role and they will be at their best. But that's point to do that at Barca, it would mean curbing Messi, which would be insane. Messi in a free role gives you goal, assists and domination over the other team. Neymar would just give you goals at best. He should have gone to another team in Europe if he wanted to be the main man. He would never get that role at Barca as long as Messi is there. Even if Messi moves back to right, Neymar to middle, I think they would still want him to hold the line rather than move everywhere.
And it can be said for almost every attacking player out there, that given them free role and they will be at their best. But that's point to do that at Barca, it would mean curbing Messi, which would be insane. Messi in a free role gives you goal, assists and domination over the other team. Neymar would just give you goals at best. He should have gone to another team in Europe if he wanted to be the main man. He would never get that role at Barca as long as Messi is there. Even if Messi moves back to right, Neymar to middle, I think they would still want him to hold the line rather than move everywhere.
I tend to agree more with your view of Neymar's current level of performance than Annahnomoss', but I don't think he's suggesting moving him into Messi's central position. I think (he can clear it up...) he's saying that Neymar should start on the left but have a lot more freedom to move infield than he currently does. That's something I'd like to see happen too, and I don't think it would leave Barcelona too lopsided either, I think they'd actually benefit from of their wide players playing more centrally than they do now - in 2011 David Villa and Pedro were not forced to stay wide as much as the current wingers do and I think they benefited from that.
Also agree with Annahnomoss that the level of pressing they currently adopt is a problem for Neymar but well...I think he's one of many in the current team that are being harmed by the lack of pressing. Still though, I'm with you that Neymar is being played too often this season when he still hasn't proven that he can add any more than Alexis or Pedro, and I think in the big games especially it's incredibly harsh how little Pedro/Alexis are playing. Neymar needs to work a lot on his finishing and his link up play, he's been really sloppy in both areas this season, but the potential is clearly there.
Hes an incredibly bad diver, but theres obviously bundles of skill there. Its a shame he can't cut the diving shit out and bulk up a bit, to adapt to, well you know, being a living and breathing human being.
Both Villa's and Pedro's movement was always calibrated by Messi. In any case, Neymar too gets to attack from the middle when Messi drops deep. He will never have the true free role in that sense as long as Messi does. Take a look at his role in el classico for example. Pedro also put in a lot of work at his side of the pitch, meaning giving the full back support when the other team attack. Neymar does not put in same level of workrate, essentially he wants a free wide forward role ala Ronaldo.. except he is not good enough to warrant that.
Yeah I don't really disagree with much of that. His work rate is better than I expected it to be but it's still not at the level of Alexis or Pedro, maybe he works even harder for Brazil? I haven't seen enough. I don't think he needs a free role though to improve, just less restrictions than he has at the minute.
It's definitely a tricky one, but I think with a more competent manager in charge next year Neymar should settle in nicely. At the minute there's a clear clash of styles at Barcelona, Martino seems to want to go more direct than the players want, and in a lot of games they just don't seem to have a clue what their role is.
He will come good eventually, too much ability not too. Physically he needs to get stronger, you need to be able to ride a challenge. As skinny as Oscar and Reus are these guys are tough. It's hard joining an unstable team like this Barca but a better manager will find the system and formation to work it.
They need a change of system, they don't want to press as hard anymore. Pus Xavi the brain's of the system is older now, they should build around their the younger players. Messi is coasting now, they need a new man in who will inspire him. I don't think he is saving himself for the World Cup but this whole packing the midfield system they are trying to use is not working.
Behind the scenes things are a mess too. The club needs new elections and a new strong manager who will comein a shake things up. I was talking to some Barca fans and it seems like Xavi has too much power.
They need a change of system, they don't want to press as hard anymore. Pus Xavi the brain's of the system is older now, they should build around their the younger players. Messi is coasting now, they need a new man in who will inspire him. I don't think he is saving himself for the World Cup but this whole packing the midfield system they are trying to use is not working.
Behind the scenes things are a mess too. The club needs new elections and a new strong manager who will comein a shake things up. I was talking to some Barca fans and it seems like Xavi has too much power.
Moreover it's a mental thing, I've seen Reus and Oscar being diving cnuts inside the box but regarding challenges all over the pitch, as you said they're tough because they're ready to accept the physical contact. Neymar is a bit of street footballer, would love to humiliate his opponents but can't bear being stopped.
He's learning well at the Barca Academy of Play-acting, needs to work on covering his face a la Busquets or no contact collapses a la Alves.
I'm sure people probably said the same about Robinho.
Neymar is better than Robinho ever was at his age.
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