Yeah, was weird to me watching Liverpool being dominated like that at Anfield. After that Liverpool had more of the ball and more chances, Meslier was terrific, but no way Leeds were lucky (other than that 1st goal) as they were very good.
Premier League Gameweek 14
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
We really shitting on United just after Liverpool get beat?! Wow
JFH is too down after a win at Anfield. It’s as if he’s pulled into this funeral atmosphere around him.
Was he expecting Leeds not to give away chances tonight?
Was he expecting Leeds not to give away chances tonight?
This is much worse because teams are settled now. A new manager experiencing a new league with a squad half baked is nothing like this.
3 defeats in 4. This is now a pattern instead of freak results
just seen the result and just had a look at the table after a long time - bloody hell Liverpool! It seems they can only beat City. Game raisers (same old).
I don’t know, new manager or not you have spent a lot on your squad and surely would have expected more. Not sure what you mean by half baked squad exactly? You had a good pre season also, and things were looking positive. Getting thumped by anyone is worse IMO. I’m not arguing that Liverpool are in good form or deserve more, they have been poor and fully deserve to be where they are.
Now Souness claims a Leeds win was unfair
Yeah, just said “if there was such a thing as fairness in football, Liverpool would have won that match tonight”.
We had spent lesser than most when those two losses came about and we played with Eriksen as a striker in one of them. That's why it was a half baked squad
I would have placed huge amounts of money on Liverpool winning as soon as Leeds scores.
Wow.
Ok, fair enough. But is that not the club’s own doing? If you don’t invest or get the right players, you have no one to blame but yourself. Not really sure I agree with a club as massive as United saying they have a “half baked squad”. Surely your squad should be able to put up some fight against the likes of Brighton and Brentford? Or do you really need to spend 60mil on a CL level midfielder and 85mil on an exciting young player to compete? In both games, you had pretty much lost by half time and didn’t look at all like getting back into it.
Of course it's the clubs doing. We fecked up massively in the window going into the start of the season, there is no arguing about that. EtH was left with a shambles of a squad trying to play with Maguire and McFred in midfield, a team which had relegation form in the second half of last season. And all this while being new to the league and trying out his style of football with that squad. There are no easy games in this league and since then we've sharpened up.
Agreed. Which is why I think those losses are worse than Liverpool losing to Forest and Leeds, mainly because you were out of it by halftime. Real drubbings. That was the initial question posed.
Yes since then you’ve obviously improved and look to have figured out your best team.
To be honest, I don't think we would have fared any better with all of those signings available. It was a combination of multiple things. A new system, inability to follow the instructions from ETH, injury to Martial etc. Things were always going to get better after that.
Losing to Brighton 1-2 was a drubbing? Let’s not try and be dramatic. The Brentford game was the disaster and as explained the window hadn’t closed by then so we didn’t have Casemiro or Antony. It also didn’t help that De Gea made two huge errors so early in the game.
The club was slow getting the players in we needed which in turn hit our preparations. We didn’t have Varane or Martial either.
Obviously Ten Hag has been gradually implementing his style too and trying to gel the squad together (you should know this takes time given it’s taken Arteta years along with multiple transfer windows to get to the point you are at now?).
Anyway I think the point being made is Liverpool aren’t a team in transition so these results shouldn’t be happening. Losing to the teams propping up the league in succession.
Liverpool have not moved on from last season, we have.
There's a massive difference so far between the teams.
Liverpool are predictable, whereas United are playing expansive football against every team,
Liverpool are struggling because Salah isn't firing and they don't have the Mane backup.
Previously they'd have both to back then up, now they have neither.
Nunez is not the answer this season, TAA has been found out, Robertson is a one trick pony which has been found out also.
Klopp is in trouble.
There's a massive difference so far between the teams.
Liverpool are predictable, whereas United are playing expansive football against every team,
Liverpool are struggling because Salah isn't firing and they don't have the Mane backup.
Previously they'd have both to back then up, now they have neither.
Nunez is not the answer this season, TAA has been found out, Robertson is a one trick pony which has been found out also.
Klopp is in trouble.
Would have been ideal day for us if Spurs had dropped points too,will give them credit for coming from 2-0 down to win. Villa were never getting anything at St James's after that penalty late in first half.
It wasn’t a very good Liverpool performance but Leeds didn’t dominate anything really. They just looked dangerous every time they broke forward because of how utterly fragile we are right now.
69% possession, 22 shots (10 on target), 911 touches (572 for Leeds) and 672 passes (301 for Leeds) doesn’t read as though the away team dominated anything. Teams know that they don’t need to have much of the ball now to create meaningful chances. They don’t even need to control the ball much. That’s how weak we are in transition right now.
The fact that their expected goals number from the game was only slightly lower than ours shows how easy it is to get at this Liverpool side. We’re the easiest team in the league to create good chances against.
The 2-1 scoreline flattered you a bit and doesnt do justice to how comfortable Brighton were, similar to how 6-3 vs City does. The game was won at half time and United never looked like getting back into it, Brighton sat back in the second half. Granted "drubbing" applies more to Brentford than the Brighton match.
And regarding this United "transition" - how long is this going to take? It seems that's been United's situation for almost a decade. I ask my United loving friends all the time and no one can give me an answer. Perhaps EtH can finally end the transition.
Funny that coming from an Arsenal fan as during the whole "transition" process we've still done better than you lot. Have this season. Finish second if you can and win the Mickey Mouse cup or something to think that you lot have somehow done better in United's worst decade (even though you've objectively been worse)
Never mentioned Arsenal at all, i accept we have been worse. Never said otherwise. Don't be so defensive, I was just responding to a specific comment asking about specific United/Liverpool games.
But while I've got you, what does the term "transition" even mean in this context? Transitioning from one manager to another? Genuine question because it's a term I use myself but can't really define. Seems we're just on a merry go round sometimes. Are Arteta and EtH the answer for our respective clubs? Or will we be in "transition" again in 2-3 years.
Plastic entity though aren't they
I’m not really sure you watched the Brighton game as second half United should have got back into the game. Both results were poor but the Brentford one was the only drubbing as such. The Brighton score flattered us so much as 3-1 flattered Arsenal at Old Trafford.
Transition means adapting to a new manager, playing style and personnel. Moving from what’s gone before to the new with things not always going smoothly but gradual positive change slowly coming together. A good example being Pep and Klopp with their first seasons at City and Liverpool.
Asking how long it will take is impossible to answer but if you use the above managers as a metric then you’re looking at around a season and 2/3 windows before things start to come together. Arteta has had much longer than this though.
It’s not a transition pre se with United it’s the process of replacing a legendary manager. It’s takes time and numerous managers before fans and club move on. It took us years because it’s not just players and tactics it’s culture and expectation too.
IMO Brighton took foot off the pedal second half which is why you had half a chance. They were happy to sit back and onus was on you to make something happen. The damage had been done though, and I never thought you'd get back into it. But of course, I was rooting for Brighton.
We are also in "transition" then as we are also hung over from replacing our long-term manager. We are not as far along in the process as United though - SAF retired 5 years before Wenger.
Arteta is coming up to 3 years with us, though he came halfway through 19/20 season. In that time, he's won the FA Cup and finished 8th twice (including when he came in mid-way through season) and 5th, and got to SF in EL. I suppose how much of a failure or success he has been so far depends on your expectations. I know most people probably feel that City are on another level and everyone else is really just competing for top 4. I have been "Arteta out" for most of that time. Needless to say I feel quite differently atm. One thing I will say is that this team is Arteta's through and through now; only Xhaka precedes him at the club. So far, it looks like the faith the board has placed on him is justified. It started to come together last season (pity about our typical collapse at the end), and that progress looks to be continuing (tough squad depth is still not there).
As for United, you've had 3 managers since SAF (Solskjaer, Mourinho and LVG) who were in charge for about 2 years (you say the process takes about 1 season). Does that mean you've had about 3 transition periods? Anyway, I guess my point is it's a bit of a vague and meaningless term and like I say, United seems to have been in transition for almost a decade.
I have read a lot of your posts, and I know you are chief WUM, but don't reinvent history son.
I worry about you.
It's not worth comparing the transition for Arsenal and United. They operate at different levels and have different targets.IMO Brighton took foot off the pedal second half which is why you had half a chance. They were happy to sit back and onus was on you to make something happen. The damage had been done though, and I never thought you'd get back into it. But of course, I was rooting for Brighton.
We are also in "transition" then as we are also hung over from replacing our long-term manager. We are not as far along in the process as United though - SAF retired 5 years before Wenger.
Arteta is coming up to 3 years with us, though he came halfway through 19/20 season. In that time, he's won the FA Cup and finished 8th twice (including when he came in mid-way through season) and 5th, and got to SF in EL. I suppose how much of a failure or success he has been so far depends on your expectations. I know most people probably feel that City are on another level and everyone else is really just competing for top 4. I have been "Arteta out" for most of that time. Needless to say I feel quite differently atm. One thing I will say is that this team is Arteta's through and through now; only Xhaka precedes him at the club. So far, it looks like the faith the board has placed on him is justified. It started to come together last season (pity about our typical collapse at the end), and that progress looks to be continuing (tough squad depth is still not there).
As for United, you've had 3 managers since SAF (Solskjaer, Mourinho and LVG) who were in charge for about 2 years (you say the process takes about 1 season). Does that mean you've had about 3 transition periods? Anyway, I guess my point is it's a bit of a vague and meaningless term and like I say, United seems to have been in transition for almost a decade.
We are a club that was used to winning the league, so the decade long transition from Sir Alex will only be complete once we actually win the thing. Qualifying for CL, finishing second, winning the domestic cups, Europa etc are not enough for us and hence we've had 3 managers come and go. It's now up for EtH to take us there and I suppose 2-3 years or whatever it takes from here on in will decide that.
It's taken Milan and Liverpool a fair while to get there so it's not unheard of. A big club used to winning will not ever be back until they start winning again.
IMO Brighton took foot off the pedal second half which is why you had half a chance. They were happy to sit back and onus was on you to make something happen. The damage had been done though, and I never thought you'd get back into it. But of course, I was rooting for Brighton.
We are also in "transition" then as we are also hung over from replacing our long-term manager. We are not as far along in the process as United though - SAF retired 5 years before Wenger.
Arteta is coming up to 3 years with us, though he came halfway through 19/20 season. In that time, he's won the FA Cup and finished 8th twice (including when he came in mid-way through season) and 5th, and got to SF in EL. I suppose how much of a failure or success he has been so far depends on your expectations. I know most people probably feel that City are on another level and everyone else is really just competing for top 4. I have been "Arteta out" for most of that time. Needless to say I feel quite differently atm. One thing I will say is that this team is Arteta's through and through now; only Xhaka precedes him at the club. So far, it looks like the faith the board has placed on him is justified. It started to come together last season (pity about our typical collapse at the end), and that progress looks to be continuing (tough squad depth is still not there).
As for United, you've had 3 managers since SAF (Solskjaer, Mourinho and LVG) who were in charge for about 2 years (you say the process takes about 1 season). Does that mean you've had about 3 transition periods? Anyway, I guess my point is it's a bit of a vague and meaningless term and like I say, United seems to have been in transition for almost a decade.
I didn’t say anything about replacing Sir Alex or Wenger as being the definition of transition. United have had a succession of failed managers who were unable, on not skilled enough, to move the club forward to where it once was. Much like Arsenal.
Arteta is clearly much further along the line though than Ten Hag in the transition of Arsenal from what’s gone before him to where he wants them, and where the club wants them, to be. I’m not sure that’s a debate given one’s been at their club a matter of months whilst the other has been there since 2019.
The point you seem to be missing is the Brighton and Brentford results we’re right at the very beginning of this period for United. The same way Arteta has had many horrible results since his appointment. Providing you see steady progress results during a transitional period can be unpredictable at times. As evidenced with Pep and Klopp when they first moved to the PL.
The judgement to move a manager on comes when the club feels this period has stalled for too long, despite investment and support, or in some cases has gone backwards with a club regressing. A good example of this would be Mourinho at United who managed to win the League Cup, Europa and get United to second but regressed quickly afterwards and never built further. Ole was another who got United back in the Champions League in successive seasons and in a number of semi finals (and Europa final) but then stalled and regressed without being able to push forward.
Arteta has been fortunate to some degree as in over 3 years he’s still not got CL football back which was the minimum set by the club I imagine. It looks like he will do it this season though which just shows that each transitional period can be different depending on numerous things. As you pointed out, it’s taken him this long to change the culture at the club and primarily have a squad of only his players.
Yeah I remember how smug he was that night they won the league,oh how things have changed since then.
Ok, so for you your "transition period" isn't done til you win the league again (or CL I imagine). At least that's a more definite answer than I've been able to get out of most. So right now, this period is at 9 years and counting.
Can't disagree with most of that though IMO what really surprised me with the Brighton/Brentford games was how easily they were able to dominate you. You have an expensive squad (even before Casemiro and Antony joined) and you would have expected that you'd at least be able to compete. There are no easy games in this league for sure, but new manager, transition period or not, it was shocking. This was my main point in response to the original question about whether Liverpool's losses vs Leeds/Forest is worse than United's vs Brighton/Brentford. Yes Brighton/Brentford are objectively better teams but I'd rather take a narrow loss where we're at least in the contest, over being thoroughly outplayed and out of it by half time, no matter who the opposition. I have many times in recent years felt similarly towards Arsenal - that surely with the players we have, we should not be embarrassed by supposedly lesser teams. But really, we're probably splitting hairs because a loss is a loss and they all feel like crap.
Just one more question about the transition thing - as Mourinho has been your most successful manager after SAF, did you feel at the time that you were no longer in transition and had found your man?
So a team under a new manager with fresh ideas debutant in PL with his main striker out loses the first 2 matches is bigger than the one of the biggest teams with one of the biggest manager losing to Forest and Leeds ?
Remind me where were Arsenal in the table after first 3 matches last season?
I'm not saying they dominated but had that period in the 2nd half where it looked like they dominated as they had most of the ball. Perhaps it wasn't lasting as long as it felt but it was unusual to me.
Leeds played good and deserved to go from Anfield with something. The fact they got all 3 points is a bonus for brave performance, despite Liverpool being poor.
Other than the goal, Arsenal’s only other meaningful shot on target was a first half header. I think you’re the one reinventing history. Possession matters not an iota if you do nothing with it
Arsenal have been sublime of course, but why does it feel like they've been playing cannon fodder every week?
Why isn’t the Arsenal game on TV?
It's always on TV as long as you know what your doing