I'd be lying if I say the immediate impact on the financial hasn't been better then I thought it might, but for me the real concern has always been the long term impact, in particular when art 50 is triggered and the terms of a trade deal with the EU become apparent.
Pro BrExit voters - how do you feel now?
- Thread starter sammsky1
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Pretty much this.
Trying to get this thread back on track, this is what I wanted to get Leave voters perspective on as so many have complained that they have been misunderstood as bigoted racists. Im sure most are not and was hoping they could explain how they feel now.
Doesn'paint the full picture though- banks, housebuilders, ITVstill significantly down, gold miners up etc. We've had a big sector rotation.
Yes, that's true, you're right. And I didn't realise ITV was still going to be honest.
I live in the US and 'voted' Leave on the Poll here partly because I never thought leave would happen and partly because I am old enough to feel that Britain was slowly losing its identity...our voice.
It was an emotional vote but I dont regret it. I think many people who actually voted there feel the same way. They did not expect this to happen. Please so do not brand all leavers racists. If someone's head needs to be chopped off it is Cameron's. Unfortunately the bastard probabaly hedged his assets and he would have won whatever happened.
It was an emotional vote but I dont regret it. I think many people who actually voted there feel the same way. They did not expect this to happen. Please so do not brand all leavers racists. If someone's head needs to be chopped off it is Cameron's. Unfortunately the bastard probabaly hedged his assets and he would have won whatever happened.
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I voted leave for many reasons, I wont go into them here, as for every argument there is a counter argument and everyone will always have a different opinion. Moreover most people have already made their decision so putting my reasons across wont influence/change the views of the remain camp. But after weighing up all the options and looking into everything (I actually studied politics and International relations, so like to think I have a bit of an idea) I feel that voting out was the better option both for the economy and the country itself.
I feel that I have made the right decision as it was not a decision I took lightly. I started off by not really knowing what way to vote so I like to think I made a fair decision by looking into the pros and cons from both sides. I never overly listened to the campaigners themselves though, as they were mostly trying to appeal to the mass. I made my decision mostly from what I knew in past studies and further research.
The past week has actually gone better than I initially thought it would, but I do think the market will again drop when we start the proceedings to leave and then even more so once we actually leave. So for the next weeks and months I expect it to remain roughly the same as what it is now, until these events occur. However I do believe that in say 3-5 years from actually leaving, we will start to see positive changes. However until then, we wont really know the outcome, so in regards to people saying we are going to be much worse off and stating that the markets are already dropping, have a little patience. This was a decision with the long term future in mind, not the next couple of years.
I feel that I have made the right decision as it was not a decision I took lightly. I started off by not really knowing what way to vote so I like to think I made a fair decision by looking into the pros and cons from both sides. I never overly listened to the campaigners themselves though, as they were mostly trying to appeal to the mass. I made my decision mostly from what I knew in past studies and further research.
The past week has actually gone better than I initially thought it would, but I do think the market will again drop when we start the proceedings to leave and then even more so once we actually leave. So for the next weeks and months I expect it to remain roughly the same as what it is now, until these events occur. However I do believe that in say 3-5 years from actually leaving, we will start to see positive changes. However until then, we wont really know the outcome, so in regards to people saying we are going to be much worse off and stating that the markets are already dropping, have a little patience. This was a decision with the long term future in mind, not the next couple of years.
I bought in December at 200p, it went up 30%, then fell and got hammered by 20pc Friday and about 10pc Monday. Mild recovery since but takeover remains the big hope now. I work for a publishing company. Uncertainty is killing ad revenues.Yes, that's true, you're right. And I didn't realise ITV was still going to be honest.
Neither is 16mil.
It hasn't been as bad as feared tbf, in that despite the nightmare of 'Black Friday' and more grey Monday, it was carnage. I'm flitting between this is bad and this is disastrous.
They say the Irish get more Irish the further away from Ireland they go, guess it's a phenomena not nation specific.
Interesting, I was the opposite, originally quite pro-Brexit but did a fair bit of research and combined with my degree studies concluded it was a total no-brainer to stay in.
So far trillions have been wiped off the global market, the pound has plummeted to record lows and our credit rating (which we endured years of austerity to keep) has been downgraded by multiple agencies, with economists and financial services companies seemingly unanimous in stating that we are showing all the signs of heading towards a recession. How much worse did you think it would go? On a personal level my placement employers are already cutting back on graduate recruitment in this country which is probably going to affect me, so I would absolutely love you to put a positive spin on this for me? What exactly is going to happen in 3-5 years that will make everything rosey again?
What have the poor Syrians done to deserve that??
This.
Most of the ones that I know are knuckle draggers that are not known for thinking much at all
I'm struggling to actually see the point in this article. Do we really need telling that a Brexit would mean less influence in Brussels?
Pretty much my feelings re the long-term future and if there was a 2nd vote today I'd vote the same way. That doesn't mean to say I'm a staunch Brexiter, far from it. My stance was probably about 60-40 at the time of the vote. At the start of the campaign I was leaning towards staying in but after evaluating the pros and cons I decided to vote to leave. Many of my reasons for doing so are in the fall-out thread if people want to check them out, suffice to say that immigration didn't come into my thinking.
I've seen references to revisionism on this thread but there's been none from me - pretty much everything I expected to happen so far has happened. The negative impact on the stock exchange in the wake of a Brexit vote, the pound going down in value - things I fully expected. The one thing I am surprised about is that I expected my pension fund to take a battering yet oddly it's gone up about 5% since last Friday morning. But I'm under no illusions that it will be a bumpy ride for the foreseeable future - it would be foolish to think that the stock market is through the worst of it as there will be reactions to other Brexit-related news and the stock market is notoriously fickle. For example, if negotiations hit a snag that will have a negative impact for sure. However, after reading what Neil Woodford - one of the UK's most successful fund managers - said before the vote, it gave me a bit more confidence to think that the markets wouldn't take quite the hit that some were predicting. In any case, Woodford cited Brexit as being only one of a myriad of reasons why the UK economy might be negatively impacted over the coming years, and that these other reasons will have a bigger impact on us long term:
Absolutely. We're one week in. And besides, what did anyone expect to happen in the immediate aftermath of a Brexit vote? The "told you so" sentiment is largely irrelevant because many of us that voted to leave fully expected a short-term negative impact so I'm not sure who they're aiming that one at.
I will add that apart from a few honourable exceptions, Brexiters have been getting a more hostile reception in the Brexit fall-out thread than us City fans get in the Bluemoon meltdown thread
I don't disagree that growth was always likely to be slow, but hitting it back 10% and then continuing even more slowly is ridiculous. Nowhere in that statement did he actually say leaving would benefit any of the other factors. And there are a million non-economic reasons to stay too. Baffling.
That was on the Hargreaves Lansdown website and was just centred around the impact on the stock market - I've since found something from his own company website that is a far more extensive appraisal of the economic situation. I must confess that I've only read part of it. It will probably need about 3 hours to go through it and I don't have that time at the moment because I should be working
https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/
That was on the Hargreaves Lansdown website and was just centred around the impact on the stock market - I've since found something from his own company website that is a far more extensive appraisal of the economic situation. I must confess that I've only read part of it. It will probably need about 3 hours to go through it and I don't have that time at the moment because I should be working
https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/
Hargreaves Lansdowne, as in Mr Hargreaves who donated £3.2m to theLeave campaign? That Hargreaves Lansdowne?
Like I say, I don't disagree that the economy was already fecked due to the debt built up by Blair, Brown and Osborne but it was at least stable ish. Causing a recession, more government debt, more uncertainty, less immigration, possibly an exodus of immigrants and maybe even young people, none of those things can possibly be of benefit from an economic point of view.
No, Neil Woodford as I stated in my previous post. Nothing to do with Hargreaves mate
Did you not see my follow-up post linking Woodford's own website? You must've done because you've just quoted that post.This guy at work was banging on about how we should leave and he voted that way. That in your face type of way.
I go onto Facebook and he's bagged himself an Irish ppassport.Most of the comments go along the lines of 'vote to leave the EU, but got yourself an EU passport just in case'
I go onto Facebook and he's bagged himself an Irish ppassport.Most of the comments go along the lines of 'vote to leave the EU, but got yourself an EU passport just in case'
I voted remain but only after a lot of vacillating and am quite at ease with the Brexit vote.
I think the vote has sent an enormously powerful message to the political establishment that if you ignore the concerns of enough people, no matter their status, you will get your ass handed to you. And politically I'm finding that pretty invigorating.
I agree with much of what Rams says but disagree with the bolded sentiment. A "nervous breakdown" suggests illness and calamity but I'm seeing a political cleansing going on that, to my mind, can only be healthy. I don't find this scary at all.
Turnout was huge, people engaged with the process, a message was delivered and the message was that the majority of people in the UK wanted change. They've now got that and the democratic process in full flow like this is enormously empowering and especially for those who who feel that the establishment has not been on their side. It's rocked the two main political parties to their core and it's quite possible that we are witnessing the end of the Labour Party as we know it (and some would say that it's become so far detached from the communities it has historically represented that it's long overdue)
The fact that half of those who wanted to leave did so for reasons of sovereignty and democracy gives me great optimism. For most it's not been about money it's about issues of accountability and the reigning in of power from people who they have not elected and entrusted with that power. That's a good thing.
There's a clear message that one in three people who voted leave have concerns about levels of immigration. They have to be addressed and the debate needs to get beyond this reductive notion that raising concerns about immigration makes you a racist. The result of this referendum should hopefully spark much more dialogue between those who are for and those who are opposed to certain levels of freedom of movement.
I have though, despite voting remain, been dismayed by the response of much of the remain vote. A pretty vicious response from some quarters. There's been far too much ugly elitism, sneering at people of lower economic class, contempt for older voters and a general sense that the remain camp are educated, progressive, outward looking modernists whilst the leavers are some sort of cave dwelling troglodytes. It's worth pointing out that the self styled progressive, modern, educated London voted that lying, scheming, power hungry charlatan Boris Johnson to be their mayor for 8 years.
Discussions of how to renege on the referendum and legally sabotage a democratic vote have appalled me.
It's worrying that UKIP might step into the void left by the imploding Labour Party but hopefully Labour progressives, and those in other parties, will get their shit together. I see proportional representation getting closer and a big role for the Greens, Plaid and the SNP. The UK has a long history of telling fascists where to get off and eventually the same will happen with UKIP but only when the issues of free movement are addressed elsewhere on the political spectrum and Farage and his cronies can't exploit it.
All in all it's a fascinating time. A reboot of a tired and out of touch political establishment and it's been done by people power. Pretty glorious really.
I think the vote has sent an enormously powerful message to the political establishment that if you ignore the concerns of enough people, no matter their status, you will get your ass handed to you. And politically I'm finding that pretty invigorating.
I agree with much of what Rams says but disagree with the bolded sentiment. A "nervous breakdown" suggests illness and calamity but I'm seeing a political cleansing going on that, to my mind, can only be healthy. I don't find this scary at all.
Turnout was huge, people engaged with the process, a message was delivered and the message was that the majority of people in the UK wanted change. They've now got that and the democratic process in full flow like this is enormously empowering and especially for those who who feel that the establishment has not been on their side. It's rocked the two main political parties to their core and it's quite possible that we are witnessing the end of the Labour Party as we know it (and some would say that it's become so far detached from the communities it has historically represented that it's long overdue)
The fact that half of those who wanted to leave did so for reasons of sovereignty and democracy gives me great optimism. For most it's not been about money it's about issues of accountability and the reigning in of power from people who they have not elected and entrusted with that power. That's a good thing.
There's a clear message that one in three people who voted leave have concerns about levels of immigration. They have to be addressed and the debate needs to get beyond this reductive notion that raising concerns about immigration makes you a racist. The result of this referendum should hopefully spark much more dialogue between those who are for and those who are opposed to certain levels of freedom of movement.
I have though, despite voting remain, been dismayed by the response of much of the remain vote. A pretty vicious response from some quarters. There's been far too much ugly elitism, sneering at people of lower economic class, contempt for older voters and a general sense that the remain camp are educated, progressive, outward looking modernists whilst the leavers are some sort of cave dwelling troglodytes. It's worth pointing out that the self styled progressive, modern, educated London voted that lying, scheming, power hungry charlatan Boris Johnson to be their mayor for 8 years.
Discussions of how to renege on the referendum and legally sabotage a democratic vote have appalled me.
It's worrying that UKIP might step into the void left by the imploding Labour Party but hopefully Labour progressives, and those in other parties, will get their shit together. I see proportional representation getting closer and a big role for the Greens, Plaid and the SNP. The UK has a long history of telling fascists where to get off and eventually the same will happen with UKIP but only when the issues of free movement are addressed elsewhere on the political spectrum and Farage and his cronies can't exploit it.
All in all it's a fascinating time. A reboot of a tired and out of touch political establishment and it's been done by people power. Pretty glorious really.
Regarding Hargreaves Landsdown
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/28/man-w...mpaign-loses-400million-since-brexit-5970669/
"Man donates £3.2 million and loses £400 million
Articles like these are quite silly really. HL is back to £12.49 a share and money isn't actually lost, its temporarily taken away with uncertainty and other reasons. It also fails to understand how shares lose and gain money all the time. HL has "lost" more money multiple times in 2016,2015,2014,2013.
£12.5 a share is very high, a drop to £10 is sod all. Not only that but they've seen a huge boost in trading.
We'll see in a few years time if we leave. All that's happened so far is a shockwave. Essentially nothing has happened yet and we won't know if this is an almighty failure for business until a few years or more.
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/28/man-w...mpaign-loses-400million-since-brexit-5970669/
"Man donates £3.2 million and loses £400 million
Articles like these are quite silly really. HL is back to £12.49 a share and money isn't actually lost, its temporarily taken away with uncertainty and other reasons. It also fails to understand how shares lose and gain money all the time. HL has "lost" more money multiple times in 2016,2015,2014,2013.
£12.5 a share is very high, a drop to £10 is sod all. Not only that but they've seen a huge boost in trading.
We'll see in a few years time if we leave. All that's happened so far is a shockwave. Essentially nothing has happened yet and we won't know if this is an almighty failure for business until a few years or more.
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No, Neil Woodford as I stated in my previous post. Nothing to do with Hargreaves mate
I think @TwoSheds' point stands - if this man is published on Hargreaves Lansdown's website, Brexit's largest donor, then it's going to be a severely biased source which will confirm about 50% of the country's point of view, and be rejected by the other 50%.
No it doesn't - Woodford doesn't have to pander to anyone else's opinions. He's been successful enough in his own right to have to go down the route of giving an opinion that isn't actually 100% his own. In any case, Woodford's stance on Brexit is pretty much neutral - you may want to read the other link I put up to his own website which is a far more extensive appraisal of the pros and cons of Brexit.
I'm not saying that he was influenced by Hargreaves, I'm saying that Hargreaves identified that report as supportive of his position, i.e. extreme brexit, and therefore published it on his website. I think we can safely assume that Hargreaves wouldn't be publishing anything remotely in favour of Remain.
A very good post - as all of yours have been on this topic. Some of the stuff I've read on here and on other forums, plus on social media amongst a few friends and the odd family member has left me wondering whether they're living in their own little bubble as it seems they're so far removed from the social deprivation that is prevalent in much of the country. It's also ironic that while allegations of bigotry have been bandied about, the fact that some of these people can't bring themselves to entertain an alternative opinion, no matter how constructive and eloquent, as to why people voted to leave, makes those people the very definition of a bigot too.
These are going to be nervy times ahead post-Brexit but as you say, with regards to the political landscape in particular, it's also going to be fascinating to see how it all pans out. Despite the disconnect between the politicians and much of the electorate, I don't think the vast majority of the population has any appetite for far-right (or far-left for that matter) politics. Many of us hold a largely centrist view, be it centre-left or centre-right. If the main parties do indeed "get their shit together" - not guaranteed of course! - then I see no reason why UKIP's influence won't diminish over time.
So I didn't actually vote because I wasn't in the country (and I didn't know I wasn't going to be in the country until it was too late to register for postal vote). On top of that I've not actually been back to the UK since the referendum so this is a view from the outside looking in. For the sake of simplicity I am going to continue as though I did vote and chose leave.
- why you voted leave
I was a marginal leave voter - that is to say I was slightly more inclined toward leave than I was stay - it was something of a toss up between the two in my mind. I was of the belief that the differences between the two options were more subtle than the campaigns would suggest. For me, there were a few key issues that would potentially be different dependent on the result:
Immigration - I see myself as leftist and liberal. I'm of the belief that all human beings should have their rights protected - to the extent that I believe a basic quality of life is something that we should strive to provide everybody for free (without them having to work). I also believe that modern technology is making that more and more possible as time goes by. If you want to discuss that particular idea please feel free to quote, create a new thread and tag me - I fear it could cause a tangent if discussed in here, but I feel that it is a necessary background for the next part of my explanation!
Even though, ideally, my core belief is that everybody (regardless of race, gender, sexuality, nationality, etc.) should be provided a basic quality of life I've yet to see a model for how we can do that in Britain with an open border. It stands to reason that if everybody could be given a better standard of living for free they would pursue it and it is my belief that we don't have the infrastructure to facilitate many more millions of people migrating to these shores. I base that on my knowledge of waiting list times for mental health sufferers in the UK, an arm of the NHS that I am quite familiar with. I also have family who've worked their whole life in the NHS who have been affected by funding cuts.
What's interesting with immigration policy is that those who defend the open border point out that we make a net gain (economically) from immigration. With that in mind surely we could implement a points system and appease both parties. The anti-immigration brigade would be soothed by there being a system in place for preventing economic migrants and the pro-immigration brigade can sleep soundly knowing that, actually, most of the people who come here will qualify under a points system anyway. In short, there may be little difference between immigration policy regardless of the referendum result, but leaving had the potential bring about a reform that could please both parties.
Bureaucracy - This is a personal battle that I openly accept I may be a little prejudiced on. I believe that big bureaucracies are inefficient (and not particularly necessary). I also think they can suffocate good ideas. I'm pro-devolution of power which takes me in to my next point
Control - I believe that, on a personal level, I have more power in a UK outside of the EU than in it. There are ~500 million people in the EU, there are ~65 million in the UK. As a percentage of the population my views count for significantly more in the smaller population. This is especially important, in my opinion, when I frequently find myself in a minority. I genuinely feel as though British views in European Parliament were easy to ignore and undermine. Conversely, I feel that locally held views are heard in the UK and can be impactful - perhaps this is just a distorted perception on my part.
The big picture - Just one final thing I want to touch on. I noticed a lot of people were concerned about handing more power to The Tories by voting out - I've seen people say (and I agree to an extent) that, given a choice between Brussels and the Tory party, Brussels was the lesser of two evils. I feel this is pretty shortsighted. We already have parties re-writing their manifestos as a result of the outcome in order to attract voters at the next general election. We have a great opportunity to change the country for the better at the next general election by getting actively involved. It stands to reason, does it not, that if we've "handed power to the Conservatives," we also have the opportunity at the GE to give that power to somebody else. I think this has the potential to be a good thing.
- if you still think you made the right decision and why
Short term it's obviously not been great economically - I anticipated the £ would recover after an initial shock - I'm less sure now. I think pre-referendum I was more sure nothing would be too drastically affected than I am now. The truth is, I don't know and I don't think it's fair to judge so soon after the decision. We won't truly know how the decision has affected the country until years after we actually leave (we haven't even invoked article 50 yet, have we?). If the spectrum of Leave to Stay went from 1-10 I was probably a 4. If the spectrum of wrong - right decision goes from 1-10 I am probably also a 4 - that is to say, I feel like it may marginally have been the wrong decision... I might even be a 3.5.
- has the past week been as expected
Yes and no. I was totally shocked when I heard the decision. I was convinced we would vote to remain (mostly from looking at betting odds, partly from social media). I think leave campaigners who most understood what they were campaigning for knew it was short term loss for potential long term gain - and I don't mind that line of thought. I would say that the markets have been hit harder than I had expected and there is more panic/chaos than I'd anticipated - that said I expected remain to win so... maybe I hadn't fully considered this eventuality.
- how you expect next few weeks and months to play out.
It's tough to say. I think it's still possible we don't invoke article 50 - I hate the idea that Cameron would come out of it all with some credit if that's the way things pan out. I still think the £ will recover regardless of what happens next, though I am uncertain of the timescale. My overriding feeling is that normality will resume and things won't be too much different from where we left off. It's likely trade agreements and the like (should they materialise) will not be too dissimilar to what we already had and life will go on. I maintain though, that I am happier with a Britain that holds it's own cards, even if it plays them in exactly the same way.
Ok, fair enough and thanks for the clarification. I haven't taken any notice of Hargreaves himself to be honest but I was interested in Woodford's view because a sizeable chunk of my pension fund is invested in his Equity Income Fund. Funnily enough, of the 4 funds my pension is invested in Woodford's has performed the worst since last Friday!
- why you voted leave
- if you still think you made the right decision and why
- has the past week been as expected
- how you expect next few weeks and months to play out.
Was not entitled to vote, would have voted Exit. I see the EU, EU country leaders and the Eurozone as one big mess that is unfair and just not working. I feel that the leaders of these countries, indepedantly and collectively, do not listen to the people they serve. I could go on but I have a hangover.
The past week has been bizzare, i'd have thought British politicians might have had an ounce of professionalism about them but I was wrong.
Not sure how the next few months will pan out as I don't think anyone has left the EU before. Maybe things will settle down once a useless tory has been found to 'lead' the country
- if you still think you made the right decision and why
- has the past week been as expected
- how you expect next few weeks and months to play out.
Was not entitled to vote, would have voted Exit. I see the EU, EU country leaders and the Eurozone as one big mess that is unfair and just not working. I feel that the leaders of these countries, indepedantly and collectively, do not listen to the people they serve. I could go on but I have a hangover.
The past week has been bizzare, i'd have thought British politicians might have had an ounce of professionalism about them but I was wrong.
Not sure how the next few months will pan out as I don't think anyone has left the EU before. Maybe things will settle down once a useless tory has been found to 'lead' the country
But they don't mind .As long as it's under a good old British government.
How is that going to work given the UK does import far more than export ($663m vs. $472m)?
Well, it's elementary economic theory: British imports will be more expensive and will fall; British exports will be cheaper and will rise. At the moment, as your figures show, Britain is running a huge current account deficit, which can't continue indefinitely. In that respect, Brexit has done the UK economy a favour by precipitating the necessary adjustment.
Now this is the one thing that has caught me off guard a little. I expected and was fully prepared for any initial negative impact on the stock market and the pound (and for some rocky times ahead). I expected Cameron to fall on his sword if the leave vote won. However, I didn't expect him to go back on his word about activating article 50, or Osborne going into hiding for days after the vote, only surfacing on Twitter. That was a shocking dereliction of duty at a time when the country needed the government to offer some calming words to the public. Then we have Boris showing himself to be an utterly spineless twat in deciding not to run for Tory leader. Not only that, and this is the really laughable thing for me, it seems that the government didn't do any prep work whatsoever in advance of a possible leave vote which suggests they thought it was a less likely outcome than Leicester winning the Premier League last season. The Bank of England have put them to shame on that score. Maybe Mark Carney can run for PM
But exports won't necessarily be cheaper e.g. factured goods that rely on imports as primary resource. Also imported goods will be more expensive for the people so they will consume less. My point is that it's not that easy an equation so I feel it's difficult to argue it's just «good» for the economy which imo you still have failed to deliver.
You're right of course, it's not all good. The UK's terms of trade (the amount of exports needed to pay for a set amount of imports) will worsen;and dearer imports should in theory give a stimulus to inflation. But most economists would agree that if a country is not hamstrung by membership of a fixed exchange rate system like the Euro, the natural cure for a deficit is to allow your currency to fall.
@Red Dreams you were pro brexit?
Now this is the one thing that has caught me off guard a little. I expected and was fully prepared for any initial negative impact on the stock market and the pound (and for some rocky times ahead). I expected Cameron to fall on his sword if the leave vote won. However, I didn't expect him to go back on his word about activating article 50, or Osborne going into hiding for days after the vote, only surfacing on Twitter. That was a shocking dereliction of duty at a time when the country needed the government to offer some calming words to the public. Then we have Boris showing himself to be an utterly spineless twat in deciding not to run for Tory leader. Not only that, and this is the really laughable thing for me, it seems that the government didn't do any prep work whatsoever in advance of a possible leave vote which suggests they thought it was a less likely outcome than Leicester winning the Premier League last season. The Bank of England have put them to shame on that score. Maybe Mark Carney can run for PM
I suspect Mark Carney won't be running for PM as no doubt Gove and May will be trying to deport him soon.