Russia Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That's the whole point. If it's either the US or Russia orchestrating the whole thing, who would you rather side with as a young individual in Kiev? A trade partnership with the US and EU seems a whole lot more attractive in terms of fixing the economy (of both).
It's a pretty obvious choice.
To be fair, they have progressed pretty well in the last few years. They are miles ahead of other states created from Yugoslavia (except Slovenia) and now that they are in EU, I can see them progressing even further (considering that chances are slim that any other state there will become a member of EU before 2020).Croatia is now in the EU as well, let's see how quick they progress
Morale of the story: EU helps. For Ukrainian people it will be much better to become a member of EU then to become a vasal of Russia. The msot important thing is that they should make that choice themselves though.
Croatia is now in the EU as well, let's see how quick they progress
They already beat you in football and tourism. With the help of the EU, Zagreb's club scene will soon overtake Belgrad's. You will have nothing left!
Croatia's GDP (per capita) is around twice the GDP of Serbia. GDP(PPP) of Croatia is the same as Serbia's while the nominal GDP of Croatia is bigger than that of Serbia. That is despite that Croatia is only around 60% of Serbia. Their integration in EU will only make te difference bigger, it is deluded to believe otherwise.
The EU is great for the poorer countries who get all the benefits and dont have to pay for the party. Of course Ukrainians would want to join.
And it's a good deal for the trade-intensive wealthy countries such as the UK, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden. Don't go there.
Im sure the people of Germany love bailing out Spain, Greece, Italy and soon enough all the new Eastern European countries who are joining.
Greece, Spain, and Portugal are all in the EU, are you counting them as prosperous economies? Things are obviously much more complicated than simply 'join the EU and all your problems are gone'.
Your Croatia-Serbia comparison is pointless. You have conveniently skipped the part where Serbia was bombed into the fcking stone age not that long ago after being exposed to decades of sanctions. Of course Croatia will be ahead.
Greece, Spain and Portugal only have themselves to blame. Without the EU, they'd be even worse off. @Mihajlovic No one has said that Ukraine joining the EU would solve their problems, but it would certainly be of help. But it's always easier to argue the straw man.
I'm sure Germany, the world's third biggest exporter, can find consolation in the fact that over 60 % of its exports are sent to EU states. Free of customs.
In return, Germans have access to cheap goods, freedom of establishment and capital, and qualified Polish, Spanish, Greek and Italian labour who help generate growth and tax income.
During the Yugoslavian wars, Croatia had more victims then Serbia. And their infrastructure went to shit too during the war. Of course, not as bad as Serbian infrastructure after Nato bombed you (and killed around 1500-2000 Serbian people, mostly soldiers) but still. Anyway, I agree with you that they would be ahead, you started (and lost) 4 wars after all, so it is normal to be significantly weakened after that. Anyway, Croatia was always ahead of Serbia on economics (as was Slovenia). I don't know why are you trying to argue that.
I never said that joining EU = all problems gone. It helps though a lot. How would have Greece survived without help (be it money given or loans given which nobody knows when/if will be repaid) from EU (especially Germany)? If they weren't part of EU no-onw would have cared to help them. If you manage badly your economics for a few decades then EU or not you're going to pay the consequences. But it is completely different business if you're in or out of it (unless you are Norway and have more money then you need). It is also the reason why your leaders are desperately trying to become part of EU (despite most of EU members, and all of significant ones bombed you) and you have to listen what Merkel says.
The same goes for Ukraine. They can decide to stay as they were, be Putin's luna park and face his wraith anytime they don't listen, suffer in process for being weak economicaly, or they can choose to become in the future an EU member and gradually improve their economics. Whatever they do, the choice should be theirs because they will have to live with that choice. If I was an Ukrainian, I know what I would have chosen.
My family owns a record shop and that's one of the best things for small businesses who have international business. Those bastard Norwegians always do us over though. I know the business isn't responsible for the customs but it saves us hours of customers wanting info and arguing with us why they should have to bay the customs charge.
Yep. If you strip away the nationalist propaganda, it wouldn't take much intellect to see that Ukraine would be much better off economically with the EU than being a satellite of a corrupt mafia state. If you ever visit the south or east of Ukraine, its infested with the "who you know" mafia crowd where bribery and corruption are an accepted social norm of getting things done. Not coincidentally, its where the greatest poverty is.
Norwegian customs are ridiculous
Do you know about the gift trick? Send something as a gift and you can bypass a lot of the customs charges!
Exactly. I can say the same about ex-Yugoslavian republics. If you drive the car fast (which happens for everyone if he has to travel thousands of kilometers) in Croatia and Slovenia you'll get fecked and you have to pay a big ticket to state for driving fast and possibly even not being able to drive in the next 24 hours. In Serbia, Bosna and Montenegro you can give to the police as low as 5 EURO and then will even say thanks. In Kosovo for some strange reasons you'll get fecked if you drive fast but for everything else you can pay to people who are linked with the government which are completely corrupted. From what I have heard, the same goes for Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro but Croatia and Slovenia have been civilized. And as you said not coincidentally, these five contries I mentioned are much poorer than Slovenia/Croatia despite there are people there who are insanely rich. And those people are always either part of the government or linked to the government.
It isn't also a coincidence how Baltic States and Poland are now economicaly much better than the Russia satellite states despite that this wasn't the case 2 decades ago.
Norwegian customs are ridiculous
Do you know about the gift trick? Send something as a gift and you can bypass a lot of the customs charges!
Yeah that's often the best way, unfortunately because it comes from our shop and we use a ink postal stamp and printed labels it's fairly obvious it's from a retailer. Not too much of a problem for us but some customers get really annoyed because they don't understand that they are responsible, despite us always telling them and giving them the chance to cancel their order if they wish.
If you don't believe that the Russian government seeks to manipulate public opinion, at home, in the near abroad (through supporting Russian language channels in Ukraine) and internationally through "Russia Today" and the infamous spammers who comment on any opinion piece concerning Russia, then I don't really know what to say. There was a well-informed piece recently in the New York Review (that would be the liberal paper in a city with a prominent Jewish intelligentsia) which deconstructed this smear campaign against Maidan. I can't read the articles you sent as I don't speak German, but I do not dispute the fact that some groupings and some protesters are indeed anti-Semitic and deeply unpleasant, but it is a diverse group and most are not - they just want to live in a country with some basic rule of law rather than as a mini-version of the mafia state next door.
As for US involvement, maybe but so what? If Russia is prepared to constantly meddle in what is supposed to be a sovereign state, why shouldn't the US and EU also defend their position?
do you understand the aspiration of people who would rather live under the influence of Western style democracies than under the threats of a gangster...which is what Putin is...and Russia for whatever it is from the old Soviet Union is a country run by gangsters.
"The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online."
http://on.rt.com/w1i3ii
http://on.rt.com/w1i3ii
simply answer this. Is it right to just occupy another country the way Russia has? There is no way Russia is the victim in this....
Invading and occupying other countries is wrong whether US or Russia do it. Russia hasn't occupied Ukraine though.
I wasn't talking about some stupid smear campaign against Maidan, I was quoting a variety of reputable German media reporting how members of the newly formed Kiew government belong to extremist right-wing parties! This is not "some groupings" and "some protesters", it is government members! Are you not getting it?
Im not discussing the war with you as you know fck all about it.
And yes I agree Ukraina should have a choice and decide themselves how they want to run their country.
Good that we agree about the second part. About the first I know a lot about it, considering that I have lived for the biggest part of my life there.
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Reports that the UN secretary generals assistant has been seized by armed men in Crimea!
agree about what the US did...that is why the Republican party is bankrupt and is slowly being shut out...they wont win the Presidency again. And with what straight face are you saying Russia has not occupied Crimea...a part of Ukraine?
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But you have recently quoted a link to "Russia Today" aimed at discrediting the protest...I really cannot take that channel seriously. I am still not getting the point, though, you are right there. Some members of the new government are unpleasant, I think we are agreed. That does not negate the whole protest/ new government. In other words, better a broadly EU orientated government with a minority of ultranationalists on board which is striving towards a functionating state than an impoverished, kleptocratic offshoot of the gangster state next door. Maybe time to call a halt to this to the discussion as we are seem to have different viewpoints.
If what the Estonian foreign minister is saying is true then it is disgusting. If Governments really do these things then the whole system needs irradicating.
Governments killing innocent people in their pursuit for power? In one way or another, it happens all the time.
You think state sponsored murder is fine cause it happens all the time?
Pointless discussng anything in here really, anything goes by the sounds of it.
What did he say?
It isn't fine. It happens though.
what he said?
anyway, its pretty obvious the system is totally rigged and fecked, since the beginning of time. people is just too lazy and stupid to do anything about it. Nothing new.
Do you have another source that is not Russia Today?
It's on the BBC website as well.
The Ukrainian doctor who supposedly led him to believe both protestors and police were shot with the same weapons has denied she said anything to that effect as she never had access to victims on the government's side.
Apparently the snipers who shot protesters were actually paid for by the new 'maidan' government.
It is on the Estonia FM website if the story is to be believed and confirmed by the Estonian Foreign Minister.
Good enough?
You are bound to get those stories after incidents like this. Some will claim it was Yanukovhich' orders, others will claim it was the opposition who did it to force the west into action against Yanukovich. Its impossible to know whats true from statements, and even "investigations" are likely to be biased.
I think both situations are plausible. Either side is full of morons who dont have the people of Ukraine as their main priority.