Russia Discussion

It's about saving face now on both sides. Sanctions going forward won't be good for anyone. They should just comprimise. Russia recognizes the new government in Ukraine with the assurance of no NATO membership and an agreement never to invade, and the west gives Crimea up. if need be be put UN peacekeepers in the east.
 
njred said:
It's about saving face now on both sides. Sanctions going forward won't be good for anyone. They should just comprimise. Russia recognizes the new government in Ukraine with the assurance of no NATO membership and an agreement never to invade, and the west gives Crimea up. if need be be put UN peacekeepers in the east.
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Was not that part of the Budapest Memorandum?

In light of recent events i struggle to see why should Ukraine place any confidence in such an agreement, let alone give up all possibility of the protection NATO might one day afford them.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Was not that part of the Budapest Memorandum?

In light of recent events i struggle to see why should Ukraine place any confidence in such an agreement, let alone give up all possibility of the protection NATO might one day afford them.
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Yes but maybe that's why the un force should stick around in Ukraine . A way around Nato and saving face. An attack on them would be an attack on Europe and the world.
 
njred said:
It's about saving face now on both sides. Sanctions going forward won't be good for anyone. They should just comprimise. Russia recognizes the new government in Ukraine with the assurance of no NATO membership and an agreement never to invade, and the west gives Crimea up. if need be be put UN peacekeepers in the east.
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I don't think the NATO membership issue should be off the table for Ukraine. Its like saying "If you don't join NATO, Russia will promise to not invade you". It basically undermines Ukraine's soverign ability to make that choice for themselves.
 
njred said:
It's about saving face now on both sides. Sanctions going forward won't be good for anyone. They should just comprimise. Russia recognizes the new government in Ukraine with the assurance of no NATO membership and an agreement never to invade, and the west gives Crimea up. if need be be put UN peacekeepers in the east.
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I think that is a terrible idea, Putin is playing a short game and wants a quick victory which we should deny him. The new govt in Ukraine will be recognised by everyone who counts post an election at whatever date in the future they can reasonably hold it. Putin should not have a veto on Ukrainian membership of NATO.


The EU accounts for 60- 80% of the Russian gas export market while Russian gas is 30% of the EU's energy supply. The biggest card the EU has to play is that we will secure another supply for the 30% in the future (we need to do this now whatever happens in Ukraine). That will take time but it is possible. Crimea should not be recognised. I think this is the west and Ukraine's weakest point, from here the equation starts to change and the worries start for Putin.


The calculation on how the west deals with Russia has changed; we should give it time for that fact and the consequences that follow to sink in.
 
Raoul said:
I don't think the NATO membership issue should be off the table for Ukraine. Its like saying "If you don't join NATO, Russia will promise to not invade you". It basically undermines Ukraine's soverign ability to make that choice for themselves.
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"Turn over your nuclear weapons and we'll respect your territorial sovereignty."
 
Bros said:
Letting Ukraine join the NATO is an enormous provocation.
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yeah but honestly with a bunch of nukes in it's armory it is really unlikely NATO would invade Russia without Russia attacking first. Not saying it could not happen, but it remains unlikely. But a Ukraine without nukes and not in NATO well obviously it has some things to worry about.
 
Bross said:
I dont see why the rest of the world cares about Ukraine. Escalating the international tensions between East and West over whats going on in Ukraine seems idiotic to me. Its not pragmatic at all.
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How about because it tells us a lot about Russia and Putin and will set the basis of future relations?
 
Bross said:
Letting Ukraine join the NATO is an enormous provocation.
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So, Russia gets to decide what Ukraine can do in terms of its security?

Bross said:
I dont see why the rest of the world cares about Poland. Escalating the international tensions between European powers over whats going on in Poland seems idiotic to me. Its not pragmatic at all.

Or

I dont see why the rest of the world cares about Korea. Escalating the international tensions between East and West over whats going on in Korea seems idiotic to me. Its not pragmatic at all.
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I suppose you wouldn't mind if the US decided to take back Cuba. No one else's business, is it? We have to protect the families of our Cuban-Americans and fellow Spanish speakers, besides, it was ours before we granted them independence.
 
Bross said:
Letting Ukraine join the NATO is an enormous provocation.
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If Ukraine wants to join NATO and existing NATO states approve their application, it shouldn't be anyone else's business. Russia does not own Ukraine, isn't its big brother, and shouldn't feel threatened by their joining NATO or the EU.
 
Sir Matt said:
So, Russia gets to decide what Ukraine can do in terms of its security?
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As opposed to America making that choice for them? The people currently calling the shots in the name of Ukraine are US puppets and they don't represent the whole country, not even close, since no one elected them, they came to power as a result of a coup.

Raoul said:
If Ukraine wants to join NATO and existing NATO states approve their application, it shouldn't be anyone else's business. Russia does not own Ukraine, isn't its big brother, and shouldn't feel threatened by their joining NATO or the EU.
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What a load of bollocks. Russia shouldn't feel threatened by NATO driving their bases closer and closer to the Russian borders? Really?
 
antihenry said:
As opposed to America making that choice for them? The people currently calling the shots in the name of Ukraine are US puppets and they don't represent the whole country, not even close, since no one elected them, they came to power as a result of a coup.



What a load of bollocks. Russia shouldn't feel threatened by NATO driving their bases closer and closer to the Russian borders? Really?
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Are NATO countries threatening to invade Russia ? I don't think so. Conversely, Russia is massing tens of thousands of troops on the eastern Ukrainian border for what reason ?
 
Putin is a dick we all know that, but I don't see mentioned in the media very often that Ukraine has nazis in their government. It's hard to side with them.
 
maniak said:
Putin is a dick we all know that, but I don't see mentioned in the media very often that Ukraine has nazis in their government. It's hard to side with them.
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http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies

Given that one of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s stated reasons for invading Crimea was to prevent “Nazis” from coming to power in Ukraine, it is perhaps surprising that his regime is growing closer by the month to extreme right-wing parties across Europe. But, in both cases, Putin’s motives are not primarily ideological. In Ukraine, he simply wants to grab territory that he believes rightly belongs to him. In the European Union, he hopes that his backing of fringe parties will destabilize his foes and install in Brussels politicians who will be focused on dismantling the EU rather than enlarging it.

In Hungary, for example, Putin has taken the Jobbik party under his wing. The third-largest party in the country, Jobbik has supporters who dress in Nazi-type uniforms, spout anti-Semitic rhetoric, and express concern about Israeli “colonization” of Hungary. The party has capitalized on rising support for nationalist economic policies, which are seen as an antidote for unpopular austerity policies and for Hungary’s economic liberalization in recent years. Russia is bent on tapping into that sentiment. In May 2013, Kremlin-connected right-wing Russian nationalists at the prestigious Moscow State University invited Jobbik party president Gabor Vona to speak. Vona also met with Russia Duma leaders including Ivan Grachev, chairman of the State Duma Committee for Energy and Vasily Tarasyuk, deputy chairman of the Committee on Natural Resources and Utilization, among others. On the Jobbik website, the visit is characterized as “a major breakthrough” which made “clear that Russian leaders consider Jobbik as a partner.” In fact, there have been persistent rumors that Jobbik’s enthusiasm is paid for with Russian rubles. The party has also repeatedly criticized Hungary’s “Euro-Atlantic connections” and the European Union. And, more recently, it called the referendum in Crimea “exemplary,” a dangerous word in a country with extensive co-ethnic populations in Romania and Slovakia. It seems that the party sees Putin’s new ethnic politics as being aligned with its own revisionist nationalism.

The Kremlin’s ties to France’s extreme-right National Front have also been growing stronger. Marine Le Pen, the party leader, visited Moscow in June 2013 at the invitation of State Duma leader Sergei Naryshkin, a close associate of Putin’s. She also met with Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and discussed issues of common concern, such as Syria, EU enlargement, and gay marriage. France’s ProRussia TV, which is funded by the Kremlin, is staffed by editors with close ties to the National Front who use the station to espouse views close to National Front’s own perspective on domestic and international politics. The National Front wishes to replace the EU and NATO with a pan-European partnership of independent nations, which, incidentally, includes Russia and would be driven by a trilateral Paris-Berlin-Moscow alliance. Le Pen’s spokesman, Ludovic De Danne, recently recognized the results of the Crimea referendum and stated in an interview with Voice of Russia radio that, “historically, Crimea is part of Mother Russia.” In the same interview, he mentioned that he had visited Crimea several times in the past year. Marine Le Pen also visited Crimea in June 2013.

The list of parties goes on. Remember Golden Dawn, the Greek fascist party that won 18 seats in Greece’s parliament in 2012? Members use Nazi symbols at rallies, emphasize street fighting, and sing the Greek version of the Nazi Party anthem. The Greek government imprisoned Nikos Michaloliakos, its leader, and stripped parliamentary deputies of their political immunity before slapping them with charges of organized violence. But the party continues to take to the streets. Golden Dawn has never hidden its close connections to Russia’s extreme right, and is thought to receive funds from Russia. One Golden Dawn–linked website reports that Michaloliakos even received a letter in prison from Moscow State University professor and former Kremlin adviser Alexander Dugin, one of the authors of Putin’s “Eurasian” ideology. It was also Dugin who hosted Jobbik leader Vona when he visited Moscow. In his letter, Dugin expressed support for Golden Dawn’s geopolitical positions and requested to open a line of communication between Golden Dawn and his think tank in Moscow. Golden Dawn’s New York website reports that Michaloliakos “has spoken out clearly in favor of an alliance and cooperation with Russia, and away from the ‘naval forces’ of the ‘Atlantic.’”

Finally, a cable made public by WikiLeaks shows that Bulgaria’s far right Ataka party has close links to the Russian embassy. Reports that Russia funds Ataka have swirled for years, but have never been verified. But evidence of enthusiasm for Russia’s foreign policy goals is open for all to see. Radio Bulgaria reported on March 17 that Ataka’s parliamentary group “has insisted that Bulgaria should recognize the results from the referendum for Crimea’s joining to the Russian Federation.” Meanwhile, party leader Volen Siderov has called repeatedly for Bulgaria to veto EU economic sanctions for Russia.

In addition to their very vocal support for Russia’s annexation of Crimea within the EU, Jobbik, National Front, and Ataka all sent election observers to validate the Crimea referendum (as did the Austrian Freedom Party, the Belgian Vlaams Belang party, Italy’s Forza Italia and Lega Nord, and Poland’s Self-Defense, in addition to a few far-left parties, conspicuously Germany’s Die Linke). Their showing was organized by the Russia-based Eurasian Observatory For Democracy & Elections, a far-right NGO “opposed to Western ideology.” The EODE specializes in monitoring elections in “self-proclaimed republics” (Abkhazia, Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh) allied with Moscow, according to its website.

The Putin government’s cordial relations with Europe’s far right sit oddly, to say the least, with his opposition to “Nazis” in the Ukrainian government. Yet Putin’s dislike for Ukrainian “fascists” has nothing to do with ideology. It has to do with the fact that they are Ukrainian nationalists. The country’s Svoboda and Right Sector parties, which might do well in the post–Viktor Yanukovych Ukraine, stand for independence in a country that Putin does not believe should exist separate from Russia.

Similarly, Russian support of the far right in Europe has less to do with ideology than with his desire to destabilize European governments, prevent EU expansion, and help bring to power European governments that are friendly to Russia. In that sense, several European countries may only be one bad election away from disaster. In fact, some would say that Hungary has already met it. As support for Jobbik increases, the anti-democratic, center-right government of Prime Minister Viktor Orban has tacked heavily to the right and recently signed a major nuclear deal with Russia. Russia plans to lend Hungary ten billion euro to construct two new reactors at its Paks nuclear plant, making Hungary even more dependent for energy on Russia. Jobbik’s Vona wants to go even further, taking Hungary out of the EU and joining Russia’s proposed Eurasian Union.

European parliamentary elections, which are scheduled for the end of May, are expected to result in a strong showing for the far right. A weak economy, which was weakened further by the European Central Bank’s austerity policies, has caused the extreme right vote to surge. Current polls show the far-right parties in France and Holland winning the largest share of seats in their national delegations. Brussels strategists worry that 20 percent of members of the new European parliament could be affiliated with parties that wish to abolish the EU, double the current number. That could cause an EU government shutdown to rival the dysfunction of Washington and deal a major blow to efforts to enlarge the Union and oppose Russian expansionism.

It is strange to think that Putin’s strategy of using right-wing extremist political parties to foment disruption and then take advantage -- as he did in Crimea -- could work in southern and western Europe as well. Or that some of the extreme right parties in the European parliament, who work every day to delegitimize the European Union and whose numbers are growing, may be funded by Russia. Yet these possibilities cannot be dismissed. Russia might soon be able to disrupt the EU from within.

To counter Russia, European leaders should start launching public investigations into external funding of extreme-right political parties. If extensive Russia connections are found, it would be important to publicize that fact and then impose sanctions on Russia that would make it more difficult for it to provide such support. Pro-European parties must find a way to mobilize voters who are notoriously unwilling to vote in European parliament elections. Europe will also have to rethink the austerity policies that have worsened the grievances of many Europeans and pushed them to support the anti-system, anti-European right. Although Germany has banned extreme right parties from representation, other countries have not. Germany may have therefore underestimated the extent of damage austerity policies could do to the European project and should rethink how its excessive budget cutting, monetary prudence, and export surpluses are affecting politics in the rest of Europe.

Putin’s challenge to Europe must be taken seriously. Rather than making another land grab in his back yard, he might watch patiently from the sidelines at the end of May as pro-Russia far-right parties win a dramatic election victory in European parliamentary elections. These elections could weaken the European Union and bring Russia’s friends on the far right closer to power.
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As Russian Law Comes To Crimea, Local Tatars Brace For 'Extremism' Accusations

By Robert Coalson
March 26, 2014

Russian-language media have launched a blistering attack against Crimean Tatar businessman Lenur Islyamov, owner of the independent ATR television channel in the Crimean capital, Simferopol.

In a recent example, the website ridus.ru lambasted Islyamov for destabilizing "the sociopolitical and interethnic situation in Crimea" and besmirching the Red Army by financing an award-winning 2013 film about the 1944 deportation of the Crimean Tatars.

The article also compared ATR to the independent Russian channel Dozhd TV, which lost its cable and satellite providers earlier this year after it broadcast a controversial poll about the Leningrad blockade during World War II.

"If in the entire universe there is a television channel that can be compared with the scandal-engulfed Dozhd TV in terms of the amount of concentrated Russophobia, than it is, without doubt, Simferopol's ATR," ridus.ru wrote on March 19.

Other stories in the Russian-language media have described Islyamov as a "national traitor," an "extremist," and a representative of Al-Qaeda.

It is a scenario that Tatars -- and Muslims in general -- in Russia already know well, says Aidar Muzhdabayev, a Crimean Tatar journalist and blogger who lives in Moscow.

"This scenario is well tested with regard to people connected with Islam," Muzhdabayev says. "In Tatarstan there have been cases where people were declared extremists. As soon as Russian authorities take full control over Crimea, the same accusations will be made -- if you a Tatar you might be labeled an extremist of any kind. "

ALSO READ RFE/RL's Ukraine Crisis blog

Muzhdabayev adds that Islyamov has been targeted first because of ATR's success and independence.

"Lenur [Islyamov] has done a lot -- especially in recent years -- for the development of the Tatar language and culture," Muzhdabayev says. "He created the ATR television channel and made it the most watchable channel in Crimea, including among Russians and the entire population of Crimea."

The media assault on Islyamov is part of a broader trend, analysts and Tatar activists say.

Relations between Crimea's Tatar and ethnic-Russian communities have been strained ever since Tatars began returning to the peninsula in the late 1980s. Crimean Tatars have overwhelmingly rejected the peninsula's disputed referendum on joining Russia.

Despite overtures from the new Russian-dominated governments in Crimea and Sevastopol -- including promises that Crimean Tatars would be given 20 percent of positions in legislative and executive organs, that Crimean Tatar would be an official language on the peninsula, and that a new program of repatriation would be established -- Tatars remain skeptical and wary.

None of the current members of the Crimean government are Crimean Tatars. Deputy Prime Minister Rustam Temirgaliyev is a Kazan Tatar from Russia's Tatarstan republic. His father is the leader of the pro-Moscow Idel Association of Volga Tatars.

The Crimean Tatar kurultai, or political council, will meet on March 29 to discuss the position of Tatars in Crimea and questions such as whether they should apply for Russian passports.

Among the charges leveled against ATR in the Russian-media attacks is that it broadcasts interviews with representatives the Islamic group Hizb-ut Tahrir. That group -- which boasts about 10,000 members in Crimea -- is legal in Ukraine but outlawed as extremist in Russia.

'Provocations'

In an interview on March 19, Temirgaliyev confirmed that Hizb-ut Tahrir will be shut down. "Under Russian law, we will have to restrict the activity of that organization. What form that will take -- whether it will be a direct ban or a demand that it legalize itself under more control -- will be decided in the near future."

Two days before the disputed referendum in Crimea, the Ukrainian branch of Hizb-ut Tahrir issued a statement warning of "provocations."

"We foresee the possibility of provocations taking place, whether they are attacks on the security forces or citizens by unknown assailants, that will then be falsely blamed on Hizb ut Tahrir to justify the presence of Russia in the Crimea," the statement said "We categorically deny all of this in advance, and if and when this takes place, we hold those who occupied the Crimea responsible."

On March 17, a Crimean Tatar named Ivan Selentsov was arrested while distributing Russian-language Korans in Simferopol.

His lawyer, Emil Kurbedinov, tells RFE/RL's Tatar-Bashkir Service that Selentsov has been held in a detention center for alcoholics ever since, under accusation of "petty hooliganism."

Kurbedinov, however, says he believes the Crimean authorities suspect Selentsov of extremism.

"During the period of the referendum, there was some sort of oral order regarding Muslims," Kurbedinov says. "He was distributing Korans. He was stopped at a checkpoint [while driving into the city] and they asked him about his beard and accused him of being a Wahhabi. Perhaps because of that they wrote down his license-plate number. Now his car is missing and we can't find it."

Muslims 'First To Be Detained'

Again, this is a familiar scenario for Tatars in Russia. Rais Gimadiyev lives in the Tatarstan city of Chelny Naberezhnye. In 2012, he was arrested and fined for allegedly having links to terrorist organizations.

He says that in the run-up to the Winter Olympic Games in Sochi last month, his home was searched. His computer was seized and never returned.

"Whenever there is a terrorist attack in Russia, Muslims are first to get detained," Gimadiyev says. "They search mosques and homes without any explanation. Later, after torturing people, they make Muslims sign statements [of guilt]."

Lawyer Kurbedinov fears this is exactly what is happening to his client, Selentsov, who has been held without charge since March 17.

Gimadiyev says that accusations of extremism in Crimea -- such as those leveled against ATR television owner Islyamov -- are a provocation.

"Until now, the situation [in Crimea] has been calm," Gimadiyev says. "The same people live there now. Their views haven't changed. They act the same way. There have been no attacks or conflicts. If anything happens now -- it means Russia is involved in that."

http://www.rferl.org/content/law-crimea-tatars-extremism-ukraine-russian/25310657.html
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Sir Matt said:
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies
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Yeah, but nobody is praising Putin. Here (in Portugal) the media however treats the ukranian opposition (now government) as pro-democratic and liberal having pro-western tolerant values, when clearly they are as shady as Putin, they just don't have the power he has.

It's just that both sides seem terrible to be honest... and it concerns me that this non-elected government is making important decisions for Ukraine. Shouldn't the priority be having free democratic elections and then talk about the EU, NATO, etc.

I think because Russia is the big bad guy of this story, we are giving a free pass to ukranian scumbags we would otherwise be criticising.
 
maniak said:
Yeah, but nobody is praising Putin. Here (in Portugal) the media however treats the ukranian opposition (now government) as pro-democratic and liberal having pro-western tolerant values, when clearly they are as shady as Putin, they just don't have the power he has.

It's just that both sides seem terrible to be honest... and it concerns me that this non-elected government is making important decisions for Ukraine. Shouldn't the priority be having free democratic elections and then talk about the EU, NATO, etc.

I think because Russia is the big bad guy of this story, we are giving a free pass to ukranian scumbags we would otherwise be criticising.
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The opposition is not uniformly or even mostly extremists. Russia has portrayed them as such in their media to foment opinion against the opposition when the participants are largely people disaffected with the corrupt, Pro-Putin regime. The Svoboda and Right Sector make up a minority of the protesters and the government. Svoboda makes up 10% of the Ukrainian Parliament and is the fifth largest party. In any situation like this, the extremists will take initiative and have the benefit of being organized, relative to the general population. They are more prevalent than the BNP or FN but it's hardly a majority of the opposition.

After what Yanukovych did in 2004, I don't think any elections would have been free and fair under him.
 
Sir Matt said:
The opposition is not uniformly or even mostly extremists. Russia has portrayed them as such in their media to foment opinion against the opposition when the participants are largely people disaffected with the corrupt, Pro-Putin regime. The Svoboda and Right Sector make up a minority of the protesters and the government. Svoboda makes up 10% of the Ukrainian Parliament and is the fifth largest party. In any situation like this, the extremists will take initiative and have the benefit of being organized, relative to the general population. They are more prevalent than the BNP or FN but it's hardly a majority of the opposition.

After what Yanukovych did in 2004, I don't think any elections would have been free and fair under him.
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I'm talking about elections now, not then.

As for Svoboda, they may be a minority, but when are talking about anti-democratic forces, history tells us being a minority means very little. The have a vice prime minister, defense, agrarian policy and food and natural resources. These are not minor positions, the ministry of defense in particular.

Overall, of course Russia must be dealt with, but these dangerous characters that are consolidating power in Ukraine can't be ignored. Enemy of my enemy and all that.
 
U.S. intel assessment: greater likelihood Russia will enter eastern Ukraine

A new classified intelligence assessment concludes it is more likely than previously thought that Russian forces will enter eastern Ukraine, CNN has learned.

Two administration officials described the assessment but declined to be identified due to the sensitive nature of the information.

The officials emphasized that nothing is certain, but there have been several worrying signs in the past three to four days.

“This has shifted our thinking that the likelihood of a further Russian incursion is more probable than it was previously thought to be,” one official said.


The buildup is seen to be reminiscent of Moscow’s military moves before it went into Chechnya and Georgia in both numbers of units and their capabilities.

U.S. military and intelligence officials have briefed Congress on the assessment.

As a result, Republican members of the House Armed Services Committee late Wednesday sent a classified letter to the White House expressing concern about unfolding developments.

An unclassified version obtained by CNN said committee members feel “urgency and alarm, based on new information in the committee’s possession.”

The committee said there was “deep apprehension that Moscow may invade eastern and southern Ukraine, pressing west to Transdniestria and also seek land grabs in the Baltics.”

Transdniestria is a separatist region of Moldova.

Committee members noted that Gen. Philip Breedlove, head of the U.S. European Command and NATO military chief, noted the Russians had sufficient forces to make moves into those areas.

American officials believe the more than 30,000 Russian forces on the border with Ukraine, combined with additional Russian forces placed on alert and mobilized to move, give Russian President Vladimir Putin the ability to rapidly move into Ukraine without the United States being able to predict it when it happens.

The assessment makes several new points including:

Troops on Russia’s border with eastern Ukraine – which exceed 30,000 - are “significantly more” than what is needed for the “exercises” Russia says it has been conducting, and there is no sign the forces are making any move to return to their home bases.

The troops on the border with Ukraine include large numbers of
“motorized” units that can quickly move. Additional special forces, airborne troops, air transport and other units that would be needed appear to be at a higher state of mobilization in other locations in Russia.

There is additional intelligence that even more Russian forces are “reinforcing” the border region, according to both officials. All of the troops are positioned for potential military action.

Russian troops already on the border region include air defense artillery and wheeled vehicles.

The United States believes that Russia might decide to go into eastern Ukraine to establish a land bridge into Crimea.

The belief is that Russian forces would move toward three Ukrainian cities: Kharkiv, Luhansk and Donetsk in order to establish land access into Crimea. Russian forces are currently positioned in and around Rostov, Kursk, and Belgorod, according to U.S. intelligence information.
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So what will the world do then ?
 
Appeasement as a foreign policy has been shown not to work too well.
This situation reminds me of 1938 Czechoslovakia all over again.
 
utdalltheway said:
Appeasement as a foreign policy has been shown not to work too well.
This situation reminds me of 1938 Czechoslovakia all over again.
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As with many events there are often historical events that are similar, but often with variables that make them not exactly the same, the most important being timing and the people involved. But there are some similarities, of course Hitler was is a prime example of some one who used the supposed threat to certain ethnic segments of a countries population as an excuse to invade. Now that is not saying that Putin is just like Hitler, so don't anyone go getting their panties in a twist. Nor am I suggesting that we are heading into a World War. But there are some similarities and many differences to previous events.
 
Only time will tell how many similarities are there.
It seems to me that the Crimea has been sacrificed by the west and I'm not sure why.
 
I don't know. I see the non binding UN resolution which means squat. maybe they're gearing up to something more substantial. hope so.
 
Russia can just veto anything the UN tries to do, so it is pretty much pointless to try and do much there. They have been kicked out of the G8. Some economic and political sanctions have been implemented, but many European nations also have close economic ties with Russia so they have to be careful with those since any economic sanctions could hurt themselves.
 
For all that it is more symbolic than immediately threatening, one noteworthy aspect to the UN resolution is the scale of the opposition to Russia on this occasion, double the number who voted against Putin following the Soutn Ossetia conflict.

.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
For all that it is more symbolic than immediately threatening, one noteworthy aspect to the UN resolution is the scale of the opposition to Russia on this occasion, double the number who voted against Putin following the Soutn Ossetia conflict.
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No votes: Armenia, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Nicaragua, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela and Zimbabwe.

:lol:
 
maniak said:
I'm talking about elections now, not then.

As for Svoboda, they may be a minority, but when are talking about anti-democratic forces, history tells us being a minority means very little. The have a vice prime minister, defense, agrarian policy and food and natural resources. These are not minor positions, the ministry of defense in particular.

Overall, of course Russia must be dealt with, but these dangerous characters that are consolidating power in Ukraine can't be ignored. Enemy of my enemy and all that.
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I think the right leaning party angle is being significantly overplayed for political purposes. We saw Putin use it as a tool to justify his invasion and annexation of Crimea (cloaked in the false legitimacy of a illegal and forced referrendum) only to find out that annexing Crimea had little to do with that and everything to do with appeasing a segment of Russian nationalism that was humilated by the failure of the Soviet Union and is using the reclamation of Crimea as a device to relive the "good old days".
 
Sir Matt said:
No votes: Armenia, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Nicaragua, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela and Zimbabwe.

:lol:
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Add Iran and Libya in there and you've pretty much got the opening scene from the Naked Gun.
 
maniak said:
It's just that both sides seem terrible to be honest... and it concerns me that this non-elected government is making important decisions for Ukraine. Shouldn't the priority be having free democratic elections and then talk about the EU, NATO, etc.

I think because Russia is the big bad guy of this story, we are giving a free pass to ukranian scumbags we would otherwise be criticising.
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They are holding elections in a couple of months. Until then, there has to be some form of governance to deal with the day to day business of managing the country. If the first few weeks of the interim government are anything to go by, they seem to have more legitimacy on the international stage than Yanukovich ever did.
 
Bross said:
Letting Ukraine join the NATO is an enormous provocation.
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And so is Russia's annexing of Crimea. If Ukraine was to join NATO following a referendum, the same way Crimea joining Russia was "democratic", would you accept Ukraine's decision as entirely understandable?
 
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