It's not even slightly irrelevant who started it. If I'm sitting in a bar and someone comes up and sucker punches me, I'm not going to cry if my mate goes and beats the shit out of them afterwards. If I came up to you and slapped you and spat in your face you'd be well within your rights to take a swing back and I couldn't really have any complaints.
Russia Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It's not even slightly irrelevant who started it. If I'm sitting in a bar and someone comes up and sucker punches me, I'm not going to cry if my mate goes and beats the shit out of them afterwards. If I came up to you and slapped you and spat in your face you'd be well within your rights to take a swing back and I couldn't really have any complaints.
Have you checked out RT.com ? Its the official state sponsored channel in Russia that broadcasts in English and a couple of other languages, and generally makes FoxNews look like the BBC.
Alternatively, the Kyiv Post is pretty good and publishes in English as well.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...agedy-that-killed-46-people-video-346192.html
Only we're not talking here about a couple of dumb drunks down at the pub. When hundreds or even thousands of people involved, it's very difficult to figure out who did what and who was first to attack or provoke.
Not to mention a criminal incompetence (or worse) of the police force that had done nothing to protect those killed.
http://news.yahoo.com/cia-fbi-agents-advising-ukraine-government-report-101508429.html
Berlin (AFP) - Dozens of specialists from the US Central Intelligence Agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation are advising the Ukrainian government, a German newspaper reported Sunday.
Citing unnamed German security sources, Bild am Sonntag said the CIA and FBI agents were helping Kiev end the rebellion in the east of Ukraine and set up a functioning security structure.
It said the agents were not directly involved in fighting with pro-Russian militants. "Their activity is limited to the capital Kiev," the paper said.
The FBI agents are also helping the Kiev government fight organised crime, it added.
A group specialised in financial matters is to help trace the wealth of former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych, according to the report.
The interim Kiev government took charge in late February after months of street protests forced the ouster of Kremlin-friendly Yanukovych.
Fierce battles between Ukrainian soldiers and pro-Russian separatists in the country's east have left more than 50 people dead in recent days.
Last month the White House confirmed that CIA director John Brennan had visited Kiev as part of a routine trip to Europe, in a move condemned by Moscow.
Citing unnamed German security sources, Bild am Sonntag said the CIA and FBI agents were helping Kiev end the rebellion in the east of Ukraine and set up a functioning security structure.
It said the agents were not directly involved in fighting with pro-Russian militants. "Their activity is limited to the capital Kiev," the paper said.
The FBI agents are also helping the Kiev government fight organised crime, it added.
A group specialised in financial matters is to help trace the wealth of former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych, according to the report.
The interim Kiev government took charge in late February after months of street protests forced the ouster of Kremlin-friendly Yanukovych.
Fierce battles between Ukrainian soldiers and pro-Russian separatists in the country's east have left more than 50 people dead in recent days.
Last month the White House confirmed that CIA director John Brennan had visited Kiev as part of a routine trip to Europe, in a move condemned by Moscow.
Warning, dead bodies:
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Let's spoiler all the pics form now on. We don't need this thread turning into a pissing contest of who can post the most provocative pics.
Fair enough. My point though is that for every 'provocative' picture showing the pro Ukranian protesters, there are hundreds showing pro-Russian violence so it's not really a good point to make.
Even if you have a penchant for drama and over exaggeration, this statement is simply ridiculous. In that building alone, over 40 people died.
Of course the US and EU are involved in Ukraine. What do you expect the West to do when the entire country is effectively broken? Sit on its hands and watch Putin invade and annex it like he did with Crimea? However, it's disingenuous to suggest that the US instigated and orchestrated the overthrow of Yanukovych from thousands of miles away with an effectiveness that Russia hasn't achieved despite being next door and full of people who can enter Ukraine inconspicuously. I appreciate that the capabilities of the CIA and other intelligence agencies are greater than other nations but it's ridiculous to suggest that the overthrow was US-orchestrated. How would the US get hundreds of thousands of protestors on the street? And, if they did, where's the evidence? The Bay of Pigs invasion was known by the media well before it ever happened well before the modern age of immediate communications. The Russians have only achieved much smaller numbers, including the Russians they send in. Despite claims by its critics, the US isn't all-powerful.
Organizational support is essential to establishing a functional governing coalition and allowing for free elections at the end of May. All the pro-Russians who claim that the Maidan leaders were behind the snipers and want an investigation are complaining about the involvement of the FBI in an investigatory and advisory role in Ukraine. Should it be left to the incompetent, corrupt police of Ukraine? No matter the outcome of any investigation that points the blame at Russia will be dismissed.
Reading and watching poor sources doesn't make you better informed. It's akin to someone claiming to be better informed because they watch Fox News, RT, PressTV, and Alex Jones. They all offer inherently warped news to fit their agenda. There has also been evidence of Russian or pro-Russian networks running blatantly false propaganda. The NY Times published photos it received from a source that turned out to be false. They then retracted the story. Lamentable, but it's hardly what RT, Rossiya 1, etc are doing. There's a reason the Russians are attacking TV stations and switching feeds to Russian ones and eliminating other sources--it's essential to spinning their narrative to the people they are depending on to support them or at least stand by and watch when the Russians are sent in. The insinuation that non-Russian media are equally biased is laughable. Again, it's like a Fox News viewer claiming that the other networks are just as biased as they are. Reading Pravda and Izvestia did not make Soviets better informed, did it?
It's not as though there is substantial serious, critical coverage of Putin in Russia because his critics have a way of ending up in jail, off air, or out of business. Conveniently Navalny, his biggest critic, has been banned from using the internet or commenting in public since February and saw the ban extended 6 more months once the initial ban expired. He, much like Khodorkovsky, Berezovsky, Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, etc, doesn't play by Putin's rules.
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What makes you think my sources are poor? Like I said, I watch and read all available sources, including Ukrainian, US, and some from Western Europe, not just the ones originated from Russia. There are plenty of bloggers from all over Russia and Ukraine that post various info, photos and videos from various cities and towns. Obviously, everybody has a bias, but you can piece together more or less what's going on. And my friends, who live in Ukraine, their point of view is invaluable, because they're closer to what's happening even than I am.
I don't understand your point about media bias. You mention various US sources and claim they all have an agenda, then claim that an insinuation that non-Russian media are equally biased is laughable. It's confusing. By the way, Ukraine banned Russian TV channels as far back as March, probably to eliminate the kind of sources that would contradict their narrative. And if you think Russian television is full of propaganda, you should watch their Ukrainian counterparts, they're just as bad.
There's no criticism of Putin in major media outlets, you're right about that. There's a number of people who never get a chance to voice their views with the big TV audience, simply because they're opposed to Putin and his regime. But what's also true is that Putin's popularity and rating is at all time high at the moment and most Russians support his politics.
I'm no fan of his, but I can't deny that.
Surely a large part of his popularity at the moment is the fact that he's being seen as 'hard', tackling the perceived 'effeminisation' for want of a better word, of western Europe and their liberal values? And of course there's the fact that he just went in and took Crimea to right a wrong done in the 50s when Ukraine was formed. That's the impression I get anyway, I don't know if it's really the case but I understand that Russian values are fairly Conservative and there's a certain machismo seen to be a part of it too? Of course it remains to be seen whether this is a permanent spike or a more temporary one, with potential serious sanctions from the US and Europe. Even Thatcher was popular when she was sending troops to defend the Falklands
According to SPIEGEL, 400 US mercenaries from "Academi" (former Blackwater) are fighting against separatists in eastern Ukraine.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...emi-kaempfen-gegen-separatisten-a-968745.html
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...emi-kaempfen-gegen-separatisten-a-968745.html
Sounds like the sanctions that were initially laughed at my senior Russian officials are now beginning to bite, as the Russian economy is now in recession. Sectoral sanctions later this month will be crippling.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/12/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-kremlin-idUSBREA4B04O20140512
I, for one, am shocked that Russia would approve of a clearly rigged election.
I, for one, am shocked that Russia would approve of a clearly rigged election.
Its funny hearing about a country that is ostensibly an authoritarian dictatorship lauding the "will of the people" in eastern Ukraine. These "referendums" are little more than Russian military operations that stoke division in Ukraine in order to legitimize secession and invasion.
Brilliant piece...well worth a full read.
Inside Putin's Campaign Of Social Media Trolling And Faked Ukrainian Crimes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...al-media-trolling-and-faked-ukrainian-crimes/
Inside Putin's Campaign Of Social Media Trolling And Faked Ukrainian Crimes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...al-media-trolling-and-faked-ukrainian-crimes/
Saying Putin is "popular" (which can only be understood in a relative sense) is meaningless given that he has state tv at his beck and call presenting his cultivated macho image. The basis of his "legitimacy" (which can be expressed as "don't worry about civil rights as you will enjoy higher living standards") is breaking down, hence the lurch to extreme nationalism. I fear Russians are about to learn a lesson Britain was forced to learn in the 50s at the time of the Suez crisis, namely, despite outward appearances, you are not very important anymore. The choices are learn to live with the West or become a raw materials supplier to Beijing. After a decade of lost opportunities in which oil rents were largely embezzled, there is no longer the option to stand alone as separate pole of influence.
Was pretty much initiated and driven by the US, I thought we've established that a long time ago. Putin then did what pretty much any government with substantial power would do considering the potential for threat at his front door.
Of course the main reason behind his popularity is that all media are backing him up, but why is it meaningless? It isn't. His rating sadly justifies his foreign and domestic policy and what meaningless at this point is how he get it.
And his failure won't cost him the votes - he blamed everything on the West way beforehand. So now he isn't responsible for the crisis in the eyes of the major population - the West is, he was just doing what he had to do and now we all need to be tough while doing "the right thing" in the Ukraine.
You may have established it to justify your opinion, but the conventional wisdom suggests Russian interference in Ukraine far predates western involvement and underpins the fundamental problem, which is a Russian ultra nationalist mindset that believes Ukraine is part of Russia. The fact that it isn't obviously makes Putin's rogue Sudentenland grab problematic, and will in the long run be devastating to the Russian economy and people.
I can't believe Putin really has an approval rating of 80%, way more than 20% of Russians think he's a tyrant from what I can tell. Hard to believe his opponents would be so supportive of him now.
From a strategic and operational perspective, you have to imagine Russian intelligence agencies must be quite chuffed with themselves. They've capitalised incredibly well to the instability within Ukraine, gained important territory (Crimea) and are instigating more movements further into Ukraine.
He's a former KGB officer who specialized in disinformation, so its hardly surprising that as "President", he's created a domestic propaganda apparatus that stokes fear into anyone who would publicly challenge him. I seriously doubt the approval ratings in Russia are credible, as Russian citizens get barraged with all sorts of state sponsored, Fox News style nationalist nonsense in order to create the siege mentality where Putin becomes the nationalist savior.
Surely all those tricks were being employed in recent years where people were protesting against Putin in the streets. For all the propaganda I still think those numbers are manipulated.
The result of the recent vote would seem to fly in the face of the statistics in that article. One of them is wrong, at least, it would seem.
I don't see any conflict between the two because the "referendum" is a Russian military operation and has no credibility in terms showing what the people actually want. Its simply designed to fast track secession to Russia before the May 25 Ukrainian elections. Interestingly CNN commissioned a poll that was released today with the following results, which seem to more or less align with the Brookings numbers.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/12/world/europe/ukraine-cnn-poll/
- 67% of Ukrainians approve of sanctions against Russia, 29% disapprove
- 56% said they feel a stronger loyalty to Europe than to Russia; 19% claim higher loyalty to Russia, 22% said neither.
- 37% in the three eastern regions favor an alliance with Russia; 14% back an alliance with Europe, and 49% said neither
- 54% of Ukrainians said it would be good for Ukraine to join the EU; 82% said it was bad for Russian troops to be in Ukraine
- 44% said Putin was a strong leader; 27% said the same of Obama, 23% said they didn't know, and 6% said neither
- 67% of Ukrainians characterized Putin as "dangerous"; 15% said the same of Obama
- 47% said Obama was "friendly"; 14% said the same of Putin; 34% said neither was friendly, 5% said they didn't know.
- 32% said Obama was reliable; 19% said the same of Putin, 45% said neither.
Very interesting, thanks for that.
Western involvement was always there, ever since Soviet Union fell apart. During the 90s, when Russia was too weak, US were much more present in Ukrainian politics than Russians. Win Putin in charge, things have changed.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...n-democracy-promotion-in-Ukraine-Nuland-2615/
After three visits to Ukraine in five weeks, Victoria Nuland explains that in the past two decades, the United States has spent five Billion dollars ($5,000,000,000) to subvert Ukraine, and assures her listeners that there are prominent businessmen and government officials who support the US project to tear Ukraine away from its historic relationship with Russia and into the US sphere of interest (via “Europe”).
The US promotes Democratic reforms in every country where it has an Embassy, so its not really saying much.
You may have established this view to justify your opinion, but conventional wisdom (historical facts + basic power of observation) suggests that the above statement is a load of bull and only to be believed by someone who has not lived on planet earth previously.
I think that actually the Russians have rather lost control of the area, from what I can tell. Most of these local separatist insurgents seem to be just former Soviet soldiers and gangsters whop've seen an opportunity and grabbed it, the self-proclaimed People's Mayor of (I think?) Luhansk certainly seems a rum sort in this. I don't think anyone is really controlling anything down there and I think privately Putin will be a little worried, since until recently his operation was going pretty bloody well.
They have indeed. There is apparently a second insurgent leader who came out and said Donbass should remain a part of Ukraine. Putin is now between a rock and a hard place in that any further support for Donbass succeeding, as well as disrupting national elections on the 25th, will trigger broader sectoral sanctions.
Calm down dude.
I'm super calm, it's just that the things you say sometimes are totally out of this world
Berkut police commandos did not shoot at protesters during tragic events in Ukraine’s capital, Kiev, last February, according to the head of the Ukrainian parliamentary interim investigative committee Gennady Moskal.
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/731428
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/731428
KIEV, May 13. /ITAR-TASS/. Berkut police commandoes did not shoot at protesters during tragic events in Ukraine’s capital, Kiev, last February. The Ukrainian parliamentary interim investigative committee came to this conclusion after an expertise of cartridges and bullets used by snipers.
Head of the committee Gennady Moskal believes that representatives of public organizations getting out of control could have been shooting at demonstrators. Without elaborating, which organizations were meant, Moskal noted that then “the first shot was made at policemen.”
“Any person could infiltrate in the ranks of the protest movement under the guise of fight against” incumbent authorities, he told a news conference. In his view, a theory is not ruled out that officers of the Ukrainian Security Service or the Interior Ministry as their supporters posing as activists could have been shooting.
The committee was formed for investigation of illegal actions of law enforcement agencies and some officials in massive public and political protests in Ukraine since November 21, 2013. No one has assumed responsibility for the killing of more than 100 protesters and law enforcers. More than half of them were killed in the morning on February 20 on Independence Square and Institutskaya Street in central Kiev.
Head of the committee Gennady Moskal believes that representatives of public organizations getting out of control could have been shooting at demonstrators. Without elaborating, which organizations were meant, Moskal noted that then “the first shot was made at policemen.”
“Any person could infiltrate in the ranks of the protest movement under the guise of fight against” incumbent authorities, he told a news conference. In his view, a theory is not ruled out that officers of the Ukrainian Security Service or the Interior Ministry as their supporters posing as activists could have been shooting.
The committee was formed for investigation of illegal actions of law enforcement agencies and some officials in massive public and political protests in Ukraine since November 21, 2013. No one has assumed responsibility for the killing of more than 100 protesters and law enforcers. More than half of them were killed in the morning on February 20 on Independence Square and Institutskaya Street in central Kiev.
I'm sorry but
.I know you are military/government so I can excuse your bias but it really makes me laugh.
I'm sorry but
I know you are military/government so I can excuse your bias but it really makes me laugh.
I'm actually not, so you can stop repeating it anytime now.