Precisely. Most people think that the Palestinians hate Israel 'just because it's Israel'. The truth is, if Israel behaved adequately towards them, they wouldn't have acted in this way.
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
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Precisely. Most people think that the Palestinians hate Israel 'just because it's Israel'. The truth is, if Israel behaved adequately towards them, they wouldn't have acted in this way.
The f*ck it isn't. If we believe removing blockades will further risk our civillians, we simply won't do it! Surely protecting the lives of your citizens is a basic must for every country. And as I said, I believe there was a condition to removing the blockades that wasn't fulfilled, regarding Shalit.
Like I said before, it's all so comfortable sitting from afar saying how things should be when it's others hiding from rockets.
Silly statement - criticising Israel does not make you an anti-semite. Robert Fisk seems to have a masochistic streak though.
What I'm trying to figure out is, if we are such animals and murderers, why is it the likes of Hizbollah and Hamas keep poking at us when they know full well what might be coming?
The Hamas Palestinians hate Israel because the existence of Israel is an insult to Allah. Those Palestinians make it their obligation to kill every Jew until there are no more left. Read the Hamas charter, it's quite an eye-opener.
But its very wish to destroy you comes from years of humiliation and murder of its people by Israel. If you treat people like dogs, they behave like dogs.
You cannot hope to starve and bomb people and then have their leaders suddenly agree to your existence, surely?
It's very comfortable saying things about Gaza without actually being in it?
Letting international aid agencies in does not endanger Israeli civilians. You would not do that, you restricted their operations. The conclusion must be is that you go far beyond what security considerations demand: that this is a war against the Palestinian civilians.
because they are terrorists, they are militants. They want a fight. But that does not give Israel carte blanche to attack schools and universities where it is sure there would be civilians inside.
There are some mitigating circumstances, yes. Israeli military had been known to call people up and say their houses would be bombed so people can get out. But that doesn't really change the idea: that years of Israeli mistreatement lead to this. Read the article posted by Red Kaos again.
Hmm, not necessarily. There could be a great number of Hamas members who do not subscribe to the 'destroy Israel' views but who have joined for other reasons (corruption of Fatah for example). Anyway, the main problem is with the leadership and indoctrination.
I said that the reason they adopted such a hardline stance were the continued atrocities and mistreatment of their people by Israel.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/22/israel
Hamas has made a major political climbdown by agreeing to sections of a document that recognise Israel's right to exist and a negotiated two-state solution, according to Palestinian leaders.
In a bitter struggle for power, Hamas is bowing to an ultimatum from the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to endorse the document drawn up by Palestinian security prisoners in Israeli jails, or face a national referendum on the issue that could see the Islamist group stripped of power if it loses.
this is 2006...
I would avoid using these arguments. In my opinion they are irrelevant. Someone could counter that because you don't live in Israel you wouldn't understand the reality. In fact, that strain of argument could be used to stifle debate about any worldwide issue. It is possible to comment on an issue that does not affect the area that you live in.
I was countering Amir's argument saying just that
Did you? Sorry, must have missed that. Anyway now you know my opinion on these types of arguments at least!
The best (only?) solution really is invasion by a neutral country who would enforce peace.
In case of both Hamas militants and the Israeli army I would personally ask to them enforce peace with particular brutality. Those people deserve to hang.
Im sorry but thats a load of crap.
Take Hezbollah for example, they formed in 1982 in RESPONSE to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Had there been no Lebanse invasion, there wouldnt have been a Hezbollah.
Likewise with Hamas, do you really think the people of Gaza would have elected an extreme organization had they been happy with how Israel had treated them. Desperate times lead to desperate measures, and the people of Gaza had always been desperate.
Interestingly, it seems that the UK does not even recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation. They only say that its military wing, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades is terrorist.
so in response to 12 deaths in 8 years, you just go and kill 600+?
and starve many more?
isn't that disproportionate?
Those of you asking why Hamas are firing rockets should also read this article (im by no means justifying the intended killing of Israeli civilians, but im suggesting why Israel are to blame for the situation initially):
So you agree that the goal of this operation is to frighten and intimidate?
When Israel understands that blockades, humiliation and building settlemens backfire, then we might be onto something.
The palestinians - notably Hamas - hate israel because it's full of Jews
. Hamas Charter - an excerpt from Article 7
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
In the era of national self-determination that we are living in, this does not work like that.
Or you could say 'The Soviet Union captured East Germany and should have been allowed to keep it?' But that's not what people in the UK said at the time.
The palestinians - notably Hamas - hate israel because it's full of Jews
Hamas Charter - an excerpt from Article 7
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
No one here is supporting or agreeing with Hamas, we're pointing out why this extreme organization is 1) Not only existing 2) but also democratically elected.
Do your research, Hamas was created in 1987....that means that this extreme organisation wasnt around for the first 40 years of Israel's existence - doesnt that suggest that years of humiliation, exploitation and suffering prior to 1987 caused such a organisation to form as a response?
The palestinians - notably Hamas - hate israel because it's full of Jews
Hamas Charter - an excerpt from Article 7
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
and yet
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3791655.ece
If you stop humiliating, attacking and starving its people, maybe they will change their charter?
Just an idea. If you keep doing what you are doing, their membership will rise and rise, and their hardline stance will strengthen.
Has anyone thought that "decapitating" Hamas would simply drive Hamas underground, make Hamas leaderless and ensure that Fatah (or whoever's in charge of Gaza afterwards) cannot make Hamas stop attacks, because there's going to be nobody telling them what to do?
A leaderless Hamas works a bit like several wannabe Al-Qaeda cells - leaderless but that makes them more dangerous.
A leaderless Hamas works a bit like several wannabe Al-Qaeda cells - leaderless but that makes them more dangerous.
because Algeria and Sudan are known to be nasty regimes who kill many people. There is no doubt to this. But Israel has many powerful voices in our country who insist on giving sheep's clothing to a wolf. Our govenrment never ever condemns them outright - not the case with Sudan or Algeria.
Israel is our ally. To have our allies doing that, this is what rankles people.
I'm getting tired of debating all this..
This is the whole irony about the siege itself: Israel insists its targetting and crippling Hamas. What it doesnt realise is that the thousands of innocents left wounded, or the relatives of the many hundred innocents that have died will most likely not only give their support, but also their blessing to the organisation which has vowed to destroy those that had inflicted pain upon them.
Hezbollah has become more popular following Israel's campaign in Lebanon 2 years ago - you would have thought Israel had learnt from that.
My opinion is, that the targeting of Hamas is not the true Israeli aim. It is 1) impressing its own electorate and 2) putting fear into the Palestinians.
I mostly agree with those suggestions, but im simply criticising the excuse both Israel, the US and much of the western world have given for his siege, since it seems that many here seem to agree with that excuse being the prime reason for Israel's attacks.
I've met the guy many times - sound bloke and also an excellent journalist. Great article too
I'm getting tired of living all this.
Let's hope the IDF can finish them off once and for all and, who knows, maybe you'll soon live quite peacefully
Let's hope the IDF can finish them off once and for all and, who knows, maybe you'll soon live quite peacefully
Let's hope the violence stops with an immediate ceasefire - Enough with the fecking bloodshed.
Seriously, this is some serious bullshit. What a conclusion! Unreasonable to attack Gaza because it doesn't respect the cease-fire? In other words it's more reasonable to just let them fire those "symbolic rockets" for the next 10 years and hope they eventually get tired or bored of it and simply stop.
Unreasonable to undermine the democratic choices its people have made?? Well I'd agree with this statement if the Hamas and those who elected them would live somewhere far away on an isolated planet where they can bomb and kill no one but themselves.
Unreasonable to sabotage Hamas in its social work? Holy crap, I'm speechless.
Look again, I was talking about Robert Fisk's article.
How about editing your post now
Look again, I was talking about Robert Fisk's article.
How about editing your post now
Sorry, just realized. My ranting was directed at the Deborah Orr article.
Edit: stop editing your post now, I already apologized you cnut
I dont want to comment on the usual "what aboutery" type comments from the usual apologists.
In part any nuanced comment on a message board only encorages "what aboutery" and cries of anti semitism and islamophobia from those who cannot accept that the rest of the world does not buy into their 100% right agenda.
The articles by Pilger and Fisk are interesting.
In part the mention of the massacre of Palestinians by Israels allies in Lebanon (obviously the Israelis deny direct responsibility) reminded me of when my opinion on the Israel-Palestine conflict began to evolve to a more neutral stance.
As I have said before in 1967 I was a 15 year old watching the Six Day War on black and white TV. Likewise Palestinian hi jacking of aircraft, the Yom Kippur (sp) War, the Munich Olympic murders, the Israeli heroism at Entebbe did not change my view that Israel was basically the good guy and Palestinians basically the bad guy..
I think the Lebanon massacres was.......if not a turning point......at least a thinking point that maybe I had been too supportive of Israel.
Israeli actions since then......and of course Palestinian actions.....I tend to look on more critically.
Without the cover of Cold War Politics, the whole thing looks very shabby.
Two tribes locked into a degree of mutual hatred that defies logic.
Personally I am happy to analyse it as one side being as bad as the other. The majority of certainly European opinion I think backs this up which is why David Milliband (and indeed his Tory shadows) needs to be careful that he is too supportive of Israel. Public opinion is not reflected by politicians on this one.
Grave danger here of the British Nationalist Party capitalising on the Mid East.
Like I say for many the Lebanon massacres were a watershed for many ordinary people who decided to look more closely.
I fear that Israels actions of the last two weeks will be another watershed.
In part any nuanced comment on a message board only encorages "what aboutery" and cries of anti semitism and islamophobia from those who cannot accept that the rest of the world does not buy into their 100% right agenda.
The articles by Pilger and Fisk are interesting.
In part the mention of the massacre of Palestinians by Israels allies in Lebanon (obviously the Israelis deny direct responsibility) reminded me of when my opinion on the Israel-Palestine conflict began to evolve to a more neutral stance.
As I have said before in 1967 I was a 15 year old watching the Six Day War on black and white TV. Likewise Palestinian hi jacking of aircraft, the Yom Kippur (sp) War, the Munich Olympic murders, the Israeli heroism at Entebbe did not change my view that Israel was basically the good guy and Palestinians basically the bad guy..
I think the Lebanon massacres was.......if not a turning point......at least a thinking point that maybe I had been too supportive of Israel.
Israeli actions since then......and of course Palestinian actions.....I tend to look on more critically.
Without the cover of Cold War Politics, the whole thing looks very shabby.
Two tribes locked into a degree of mutual hatred that defies logic.
Personally I am happy to analyse it as one side being as bad as the other. The majority of certainly European opinion I think backs this up which is why David Milliband (and indeed his Tory shadows) needs to be careful that he is too supportive of Israel. Public opinion is not reflected by politicians on this one.
Grave danger here of the British Nationalist Party capitalising on the Mid East.
Like I say for many the Lebanon massacres were a watershed for many ordinary people who decided to look more closely.
I fear that Israels actions of the last two weeks will be another watershed.
You'd be surprised by the likes of Fearless here who claim that Israel is targetted by everyone, and anyone not in support of their actions are just as good as these Hamas blokes.
But I agree the comment may have been unnecessary and I have consequently removed it.
I have found that Fisk usually comes across as the most self-hating white person in the history of self-hating white people. I'm oversimplifying of course, but in general, every piece he writes is West=Bad, Others=Good, West=Oppressors who deserve any damage they get, Others=Victims whose actions can always be excused. The article could just as easily be retitled "Why do I hate the West so much, we will ask".
I admit it's been a couple of years since I read his stuff much, but I doubt it has changed.