Scores die in Israeli air strikes

There's an interesting book by Michael Eisenstadt called "The Palestinians: Between State Failure and Civil War".

Despite functioning as a de facto state since its creation in 1994, the Palestinian Authority has long been crippled by "the four Fs": fawda (chaos), fitna (strife), falatan (lawlessness), and fassad (corruption). These conditions -- the hallmarks of state failure -- continue to define life in the PA-controlled West Bank and show signs of returning in Hamas-controlled Gaza. How did this state of affairs come to pass? And what can the Palestinians, Israel, and the international community do to avert the worst-case scenarios of outright collapse or civil war?

In this Policy Focus, Michael Eisenstadt diagnoses the many longstanding ails that have kept the PA from governing effectively. The Palestinians face numerous obstacles to meaningful reform and stability, including economic stagnation, unsustainable population growth, a self-defeating strategy of armed struggle, and Yasser Arafat's enduring legacy of corruption and unaccountability. These problems have been exacerbated by -- and, in many cases, have given rise to -- external obstacles such as Israeli security restrictions, international sanctions against Hamas, and continued interference from Iran and Syria. Failure to formulate a comprehensive, multilateral plan for overcoming these obstacles could have untold implications for the Palestinians, the regional security equation, and overall U.S. interests in the Middle East.

Free for download on The Washington Institute website.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC04.php?CID=285
 
Idiot.

Bloody idiot.

* Israel=Nazi Germany
* Jews have no historic bonds to their homeland
* 9/11 was an inside job (fact!)
* Israel initiated this round of violence
* Israel attacked Lebanon in 2006

You have the same people coming up with all these classics, fighting the same corner. If there was ever a productive thread in this forum, then this is the one. It creates a microforum where Islamic fundamentalists and leftist mentalists can enjoy some quality time together.
 
The 9/11 was an inside job mentalists are the most annoying of the lot imo. Point and click internet detectives with too much time on their hands.
 
The IDF in Gaza: Operational Concepts, Lines of Effort, and Effects

This article provides a good summary of the goals and achievements so far.

Operational Concepts

Cast Lead appears to be guided by a number of important operational concepts:

- continuous attacks on Hamas and associated entities, allowing Hamas little time to regroup;
- pervasive attacks throughout the Gaza Strip and against the entire Hamas target system;
- precision attacks to ensure target destruction with minimal collateral damage;
- isolation of Gaza from Egypt by air attacks along the Philadelphia Corridor; - - division of Gaza in half by ground forces;
- attention to humanitarian requirements while maintaining operational freedom of action;
- attention to information and psychological aspects of the battle;
- minimizing IDF casualties through the application of heavy firepower and avoiding clashes in built-up and densely populated areas.

Although these concepts are not immutable and some tension exists among them, particularly between the requirements to destroy enemy forces and facilities and to avoid civilian casualties, they shape the direction, emphasis, and intensity of IDF actions.

Lines of Effort

In military terms, lines of effort (LOE) represent sequences of related actions intended to be mutually supportive in achieving the overall goals of a plan. Operation Cast Lead appears to be proceeding along multiple LOE, with each producing effects on a critical sphere of activity for Hamas.

Counterforce.

From the beginning of Cast Lead, the IDF's principal LOE has been the reduction of the military capabilities of Hamas and other Palestinian combat elements. In the first week of the operation, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) and Navy primarily conducted this LOE, and ground forces joined the effort on January 3. Israeli forces have been striking Palestinian rocket and mortar units with success. For example, between January 10 and 12, the IAF reported strikes against sixteen rocket-launching targets, including launch teams, launchers, and launch sites. Israeli ground forces operating primarily in northern Gaza have occupied some traditional launch areas and also engaged mortar and rocket crews. The number of rocket launches has been reduced by about half since the beginning of the conflict, and launch sites have been pushed deeper into Gaza, reducing the threatened area within Israel. Ground force action is also killing Hamas combatants. While Hamas has avoided open combat with the IDF on the ground, attrition of Hamas gunmen who oppose Israeli activity is continuous and increasing. Israeli intelligence sources are reporting some signs of loss of coherence among Hamas units, and in some cases a lack of will to fight. Hamas has had no significant success against Israeli combat forces.

Counterleadership

IDF actions are taking a toll among Hamas leaders, especially in the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, and other terrorist organizations. Among those reportedly killed are Nizar Rayyan, a senior Hamas leader, Abu Zakaria al-Jamal, a senior Hamas military commander, and Amir Mansi, a senior commander in the Hamas rocket forces. The killing of experienced leaders reduces the effectiveness of Palestinian forces, limits their ability to act in an organized or cohesive way, and sends a message to other leaders that they are personally at risk. Counterleadership actions have included strikes against the offices and homes of Hamas and other groups' leaders. Hamas leaders are reportedly hiding in locations they believe the IDF will not strike, moving from place to place.

Counterlogistics

IDF attacks on Hamas logistics have had three major aspects. First, the IAF has conducted numerous strikes against the tunnel system connecting the Strip to Egypt. The intensity of Israeli strikes on the tunnels likely reflects, at least in part, their presumed use in smuggling long-range rockets into Gaza. Although the precise extent of damage to the system is not known (there were reportedly as many as 300 tunnels), traffic has likely been disrupted substantially because of damage to the tunnels, casualties among operators, and concerns about safety. A second element of this LOE is cutting Gaza into two with IDF ground forces. This action greatly reduces Hamas's ability to move personnel and material within the Strip. The third counterlogistics measure has been direct IAF attacks on storage facilities for arms and ammunition. A number of these attacks have been on mosques and the homes of Hamas military wing leaders that are serving as weapons storage facilities for the organization. Secondary explosions from within these targets and video taken by IDF ground forces operating in northern Gaza indicate that the IDF has good intelligence on these targets. Together, these actions make it more difficult for Hamas to bring anything into Gaza and move personnel and material within the Strip, and reduce the group's ability to resupply combat forces and positions.

Counterinfrastructure

IDF actions have reduced the extensive physical infrastructure that supports Hamas. Government offices and facilities have been widely attacked. Rocket development and production facilities, including the so-called rocket research and development facility at the Islamic University in Gaza have been struck, and the IAF attacked Hamas's al-Aqsa television facility. Although Hamas is adept at work-arounds, and physical facilities can be rebuilt, its capacity to rule and sustain attacks on Israel has been weakened.

Cumulative/Synergistic Effects

Effectively executed LOE produce both cumulative and synergistic effects on the targeted systems and the organizations as a whole. Attacks on combat forces, leadership, logistics, and infrastructure comprehensively weaken Hamas's military capabilities and capacity to rule Gaza. Loss of military capabilities weakens Hamas's claims that it is the leader of the "resistance" and "defender" of the Palestinian people. Attacks on leadership can produce internal tensions between those who run the risks of combat and those who evade the violence. Destruction of infrastructure makes it more difficult for Hamas to govern within the Strip. Loss of tunnels reduces Hamas's control, income, and ability to sustain the flow of essential services and goods, including weapons and ammunition.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2992
 
It creates a microforum where Islamic fundamentalists and leftist mentalists can enjoy some quality time together.

As someone who has proved to have a benevolent eye on Israel and as a left voter, would you mind abstaining from jumbling it all up?

I’d probably be much more pissed off than you are if I were in your shoes, given the appalling comparisons some nutter just made, but I’d really appreciate some balance on your part. At least, leave being lefty off from your verbal duels.
 
As someone who has proved to have a benevolent eye on Israel and as a left voter, would you mind abstaining from jumbling it all up?

I’d probably be much more pissed off than you are if I were in your shoes, given the appalling comparisons some nutter just made, but I’d really appreciate some balance on your part. At least, leave being lefty off from your verbal duels.

Hey, some of my best mates are leftists ;)

Please note that I referred to a mentalist section among the left, one that completes a full circle here with adopting a racially-based hate that is usually attributed to the right-wing. Of course they are still trying to use different terminology (e.g. anti-Zionism), but that's about sums up the differences.
 
None of the posters here are directly engaged in the war, that's true, however, there are a few posters from Israel who are indirectly involved in this conflict because it concerns their place of living, their security, their future etc.

Forgive me for not being concerned about Israeli's living in the palatial land that is Israel and more concerned about Palestinians forced to live in shanty towns and under the baggage of a neo con army content on engaging in unlawful warfare.

It is those posters choice to live where they do. They have taken that choice. So they live by that decision.
 
Idiot.

Bloody idiot.

Just what is so idiotic or untrue about his statement? It is fact that Israel has killed plenty of babies in its unlawful war this past 20 days. It is also true that many many many credible and authoritative people and organisations of neutral opinion have compared this current regime of Israelis to share many similar behaviour traits as Hitler's Nazi's.

Throw as many toys out of the pram as you like, but you cant hide from the truth.You may have had so much propaganda shoved won your throats, you don't even know right from wrong, truth from lies any more. It hurts alot when the people start getting so close to the truth, hey?

And so Im waiting, pray tell, just what is so idiotic about his statement?
 
I never said Israels army is a professional army that acts professionally and not a bunch of gangsters/smugglers/killers like the Hamas.

errr I think I'll have to disagree.

We've all met these charming young men, I've seen them in full action on the beaches of Goa and Phuket. Hardcore racist thugs of the highest order, the most in human versions of human beings as anyone who has met them or encountered than on Israeli border control will testify.

I think they make Hamas or any other freedom fighting organisation look like candy boys. Something I guess you should be proud of.
 
Just what is so idiotic or untrue about his statement? It is fact that Israel has killed plenty of babies in its unlawful war this past 20 days. It is also true that many many many credible and authoritative people and organisations of neutral opinion have compared this current regime of Israeli's to share many similar behaviour traits as Hitler's Nazi's.

Throw as many toys out of the pram as you like, but you cant hide from the truth.You may have had so much propaganda shoved won your throats, you don't even know right from wrong, truth from lies any more. It hurts alot when the people start getting so close to the truth, hey?

And so Im waiting, pray tell, just what is so idiotic about his statement?

If you are comparing a war against a terrorist organization in which course, unfortunately but inevitably, innocent civilians lose their life with a systematical extermination of an entire race then you are clearly out of your mind.
 
Everything he said, and now everything you said. Simple, hey?

:lol: Do any of you Israeli's actually know how to debate or do you think your barking works on the Internet. You can't fire your sulphured rockets at me here buddy. pretty pathetic.

Where have all the proper posters gone? FitzJames, Frosty, MikeUpNoth, Pletch where are you when one feels like a proper debate? Save me from these bafoons.
 
If you are comparing a war against a terrorist organization in which course, unfortunately but inevitably, innocent civilians lose their life with a systematical extermination of an entire race then you are clearly out of your mind.

because you said so right? :lol:
 
errr I think I'll have to disagree.

We've all met these charming young men, I've seen them in full action on the beaches of Goa and Phuket. Hardcore racist thugs of the highest order, the most in human versions of human beings as anyone who has met them or encountered than on Israeli border control will testify.

I think they make Hamas or any other freedom fighting organisation look like candy boys. Something I guess you should be proud of.

Seems to me like the charming young men have done a pretty good job in Gaza during the last three weeks.

You mentioned Hamas and freedom in the same sentence. I'll try not to throw up the breakfast I just had.
 
Seems to me like the charming young men have done a pretty good job in Gaza during the last three weeks.

so as I said, quit hiding behind the truth, call a spade a spade and just accept what you are: Inhuman immoral right wing hoodlums.

What comes around goes around ... and you'll get it back with interest. Just think about that while you eat your breakfast.
 
It's just my opinion. Comparing Hitler's policy and actions against Jews with Israel's war against the Hamas is idiotic.

yes, in your view .... but your view is not shared by for example, The Vatican and many many others (just google it if you can be bothered to be enlightened).

And so whilst the view may not be right, it does not make it idiotic. In fact, in this instance, the only thing that is idiotic is your view on this matter.
 
Just what is so idiotic or untrue about his statement? It is fact that Israel has killed plenty of babies in its unlawful war this past 20 days.

Since when is 'someone who kills baby' the definition for a Nazi?
Either you’re desperately misinformed, or you’re just trying to take the piss.

See, the area of Italy where I live is close to the Gothic line and the small town my family comes from was levelled to ground zero by the USAF and the RAF as they were fighting the Germans off of Italy in April 1945. Unfortunately, some innocent civilians died, children included. Does this make the Americans and the Brits Nazis? On the contrary, people here accepted that – alas! – people die during wars and there’s no sense of resentment against neither the USAF or the RAF. More likely, respect and gratefulness.

What’s missing in Israel to compare it to Nazi Germany is the whole ideological structure of race supremacy and of race extermination – which the Nazis actually carried out.
But you know it all too well. You’re just taking the piss, aren’t you?
 
so as I said, quit hiding behind the truth, call a spade a spade and just accept what you are: Inhuman immoral right wing hoodlums.

What comes around goes around ... and you'll get it back with interest. Just think about that while you eat your breakfast.

That just sounded like a quote from a cheap gangster movie.

My breakfast was lovely, I really enjoyed it.
 
yes, in your view .... but your view is not shared by for example, The Vatican and many many others (just google it if you can be bothered to be enlightened).

And so whilst the view may not be right, it does not make it idiotic. In fact, in this instance, the only thing that is idiotic is your view on this matter.

Read my post #1966. The summary of the operational concepts of the IDF and their achievements so far. That's called careful planing and professionalism and not Hitler, Nazis and genocide. Are you really incapable to spot the difference?
 
Since when is 'someone who kills baby' the definition for a Nazi?
Either you’re desperately misinformed, or you’re just trying to take the piss.

See, the area of Italy where I live is close to the Gothic line and the small town my family comes from was levelled to ground zero by the USAF and the RAF as they were fighting the Germans off of Italy in April 1945. Unfortunately, some innocent civilian died, children included. Does this make the Americans and the Brits Nazis? On the contrary, people here accepted that – alas! – people die during wars and there’s no sense of resentment against neither the USAF or the RAF. More likely, respect and gratefulness.

What’s missing in Israel to compare it to Nazi Germany is the whole ideological structure of race supremacy and of race extermination – which the Nazis actually carried out.
But you know it all too well. You’re just taking the piss, aren’t you?

Red Wedge, thanks for your query. I'll tell you exactly my meaning:

Amir said it was 'bloody idiotic' to say two things:

- to congratulate Israel for killing babies
- to become like the Nazi's.

I'm merely saying that such statements are not idoitc because Israel has in fact killed many babies in its unlawful actions of the past 20 days which has led to many authoritative establishments of morality to compare its actions to the German Nazis of the 1930s/40s.

Thank you for sharing your story about where you live.
 
Read my post #1966. The summary of the operational concepts of the IDF and their achievements so far. That's called careful planing and professionalism

yep, that careful planning that has deliberately killed UN humanitarian workers and babies while they lay in their cots slap bang in the middle of civvie land.

God help us all when there is no plan.
 
:lol: Do any of you Israeli's actually know how to debate or do you think your barking works on the Internet. You can't fire your sulphured rockets at me here buddy. pretty pathetic.

Where have all the proper posters gone? FitzJames, Frosty, MikeUpNoth, Pletch where are you when one feels like a proper debate? Save me from these bafoons.

with some of your posts here you should remember the saying about the pot and kettle
 
It is also true that many many many credible and authoritative people and organisations of neutral opinion have compared this current regime of Israelis to share many similar behaviour traits as Hitler's Nazi's.

Focusing on this point alone, can you provide examples of these comparisons? What behavioural traits are you talking about here?
 
yep, that careful planning that has deliberately killed UN humanitarian workers and babies while they lay in their cots slap bang in the middle of civvie land.

God help us all when there is no plan.

That is highly debatable. Israel achieves nothing by killing women and children but it achieves a lot by killing Hamas terrorists and destroying their organization. Israel knows that the accusations of killing civilians will make headlines all over the world and motivate morons, like yourself, to jump on the Hitler-genocide bandwagon. Therefore, it does not make any sense at all to deliberately attack civilians knowing that probably more than enough civilians will die in course of their actions against legitimate targets anyway. It's counterproductive and bad for the image.

We could now argue about the morality and justification of those actions etc, yet I'm telling you again, comparing Israel and this recent IDF operation with the racist ideology of the Third Reich is laughable.
 
Focusing on this point alone, can you provide examples of these comparisons? What behavioural traits are you talking about here?

Hi Frosty,

Ok, well how about the ever deteriating conditions in Gaza which is leads many to comment that it feels like 'a concentration camp' from the Nazi era. This is something I have seen with my own eyes.

How about trying to control what the world actually sees by not allowing foreign media in?

How about the fact that Israel is punishing the entire population of Gaza for the actions of a few who are HAMAS?

Whether its a UN representative, a Cardinal from the Vatican or within the many many other forums that I read , its a widely held view and rapidly gaining traction.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/thegodblog/item/nazi_comparisons_and_hamas_bathrooms_20090105/
 
We could now argue about the morality and justification of those actions etc, yet I'm telling you again, comparing Israel and this recent IDF operation with the racist ideology of the Third Reich is laughable.

as you will see from my post to frosty, many many people are not laughing except you.
 
with some of your posts here you should remember the saying about the pot and kettle

No kettle calling from me. I do not apologise for having a point of view ... and would like some of these to try and give a counter view instead of for example complaining that I know how to construct sentences and write too many words for them to read! what is the world coming too .... this is a forum for Gods sake!
 
I still find it hilarious (and some what disturbing) that you've actually got people here justifying the use of white phosphorous by insisting its legal :lol:

Hey its OK to burn people alive, some protocol says so! :wenger:
 
Hi Frosty,

Ok, well how about the ever deteriating conditions in Gaza which is what some think feeling like 'a concentration camp' from the Nazi era. This is a calculated strategy and something I have seen with my own eyes.

How about trying to control what the world actually sees by not allowing foreign media in?

How about the fact that Israel is punishing the entire population of Gaza for the actions of a few who are HAMAS?

Whether its a UN representative or a Cardinal from the Vatican or many many other forums that I read , its a widely held view that is rapidly gaining traction.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/thegodblog/item/nazi_comparisons_and_hamas_bathrooms_20090105/

Thanks for the link, I think I should have explained myself better first time round.

Firstly, whether a large body of persons described Israeli policies as similar to those of the Nazis does not make them right - just as many people describe Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation, a description that many disagree with strongly. Weight of numbers does not make an opinion correct.

You have to turn to the substance of the actions involved to make a proper comparison.

The question has to be asked - why the comparison to Nazism? The conditions in Gaza are terrible, but if you want to compare them to a concentration camp, why not compare them to the British in South Africa or Kenya, the US use against Native Americans in the 1800's or the use of them in China, Malaya and elsewhere? There the camps were used to house and control populations. Nazi Germany used camps for forced labour and extermination by a range of methods.

If comparisons to Nazi Germany are made then people will assume Bergen-Belsen or Auschwitz is being compared to the current conditions, despite the fact that the Nazis used the policy of Schutzhaft or forced internment for political views - a policy replicated in many other countries.

This is why the comparison is unhelpful. Desregarding the fact that it alienates so many people, the comparison is also incorrect. Read Wolfgang Sofsky, 'The Order of Terror: The Concentration Camp' for a good analysis of what the Nazi system was like.

There is no mass extermination of a population here, no trains taking them to separate camps, no forced labour, no deliberate systematic starvation and no death camps.

Yes, the situation in Gaza is intolerable. The Palestinians should have a state of their own as soon as possible, the occupation of the West Bank should end and settlements dismantled.

But so should comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany. Unlike Nazi Germany there is a vibrant Arab population in Israel, where fully one-sixth of the population is not Jewish. There is no ethnic cleansing, no master race, and minorities have the full protection of the law, despite the discrimination that occurs against them (see the US, UK, France for similar situations).

So in all honesty the Nazi claim is a big decoy, shifting the view from what is happening to a debate over why the analogy is used at all. It would be better if it was not used at all.
 
UN's 'war crime investigation' call

The UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) has said Israel's actions in Gaza should be investigated as possible war crimes.

Spokesman Chris Gunness told the BBC that two children, aged five and seven, were killed when Israeli tank fire hit a UN school where hundreds had taken shelter in the northern town of Beit Lahiya.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7835050.stm

I hope its properly investigated and the UN dont bottle it. Dont see why Israel should get special treatment and get exempted from any possible war crime charges. So far the UN have just been insisting that Israel carry out a ceasefire but Israel have more or less told them to get fecked....UN do nothing :rolleyes:
 
Don't post any more casualty pictures in this thread. If you're not smart enough to articulate your point without illustrations then at least post the link to the pictures so we can choose whether or not we want to look at them.

I'm getting ready for the Washington DC concert, and I don't have a whole lot of time to argue about this post, but I strongly believe that if you are going to a have the stones to argue for or against either one of these savage groups, that would sooner leave every last enemy combatant dead on the side of the road, in a mangled mess, without a second thought...


...then you've best bring the courage to see the damage it is causing.


Especially, when one side is saying that the photos are false and the results of White Phosphorous bombs strictly reduce people to 'cinders'.


This is the Redcafe Roul... don't be trying to pull any DOD bullshit here (in referrence to the US Dept. of Def. disallowing the media from showing American caskets and restricting much of the Iraq and Afghan media from access to the carnage), and I will take this to a higher authority.


Let's see what Sultan has to say...




Very important note...

Please Sam ... don't let these people suck you into taking this thread/topic sideways. The people that are attacking you have no defence. You know this...

I'm not saying don't respond, just begging you... you are a very intelligent person and they are destracting you from your best intentions and ability to communicate aspects of this topic clearly and with enormous impact.
 
I'm getting ready for the Washington DC concert, and I don't have a whole lot of time to argue about this post, but I strongly believe that if you are going to a have the stones to argue for or against either one of these savage groups, that would sooner leave every last enemy combatant dead on the side of the road, in a mangled mess, without a second thought...


...then you've best bring the courage to see the damage it is causing.


Especially, when one side is saying that the photos are false and the results of White Phosphorous bombs strictly reduce people to 'cinders'.


This is the Redcafe Roul... don't be trying to pull any DOD bullshit here (in referrence to the US Dept. of Def. disallowing the media from showing American caskets and restricting much of the Iraq and Afghan media from access to the carnage), and I will take this to a higher authority.


Let's see what Sultan has to say...




Very important note...

Please Sam ... don't let these people suck you into taking this thread/topic sideways. The people that are attacking you have no defence. You know this...

I'm not saying don't respond, just begging you... you are a very intelligent person and they are destracting you from your best intentions and ability to communicate aspects of this topic clearly and with enormous impact.


Enough with the cheesy Michael Moore rants Rob. I didn't say people couldn't see the pics - just that no one should have the pics stuffed down their throats. If they want to see them, they can click on the link to the site that hosts them.
 
Enough with the cheesy Michael Moore rants Rob. I didn't say people couldn't see the pics - just that no one should have the pics stuffed down their throats. If they want to see them, they can click on the link to the site that hosts them.

Michael Moore HUH?!


I am going to take this to the next level... as you might expect, I have at least 2 dozen friends through my church the are retired DOD or still working with the government on weapons research.


I'll find out if there are equally efficient ways that Israel could have lit up the sky, without frying every person in the streets.


All this crap about 'Israel didn't sign any international agreement not to use WP...' is bullshit. It distracts from the disgusting behavior of the IDF and the Israel govt.


I don't come to the Current Events forum to play (almost used the 'F' word here be thought better of it) games. I might take me a couple weeks to return with my research... but you can bet I will prove my point.


So... my response to your suggestion is ... ummm No... if you are going to argue for or against either side... you should have to see the full impact!
 
Michael Moore HUH?!




So... my response to your suggestion is ... ummm No... if you are going to argue for or against either side... you should have to see the full impact!

Your only recourse is picketting the Red Cafe offices in Northern Virginia.