Correct
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Wrong... The only recourse I am fighting for is integrity and an honest appraisal of the Current Events, that and to have a venue that has at least a whisper of the truth.
As ever Frosty, a beautifully eloquent argument and one I honesty cant refute. Yes you are right that the Nazi's achieved a level of wickedness that could not be imagined. And comparing that to what is happening is perhaps disproportionate and extreme.
But then again, I think that the world should have learnt from that incident. The people of Israel should have learnt from that incident. And though perhaps disproportionate, for a so called civilized nation to behave this away in these times ... well its as bad as I can imagine.
Utter helplessness, that's all I feel about this situation. It really troubles me. And I know, just like my Governments decision to enter into an illegal war in Iraq, the next generation when they debate these goings on in 15 years time, maybe on this very forum, will ask why when the unjustness and illegality of was so obvious, so clear cut, why did the world not step in? Why why why?
The timings of this latest crimes against the people of Palestine, coming just days before Bush and his cohorts are destined into the dustbins of history is what makes it all the more atrocious.
Yes, I'll concede that the comparison is not accurate, but in my mind that does not make this current generation of Israeli policy makers any different to the heinously wicked German policy makers of 70 years ago.
Israelis gave plenty of warnings to the Hamas to stop firing rockets at it's people as soon as they defend themselves there's outcry against them.
And as for the people they voted Hamas in so they are partly to blame , people get hurt in war deal with it.
And as for the people they voted Hamas in so they are partly to blame , people get hurt in war deal with it.
I dont see how you can define the past 30 days as a war.
I also dont think anybody should just "deal" with the loss of innocent life.
If this loss effected your family directly, would you just deal with it?
This thread has directed anger and blame at both sides, and on both sides there is corruption and malice..but to start dismissing the loss of anybodys life so flippantly is a sign of real ignorance.
And you should be fecking ashamed of yourself.
Maybe some of us need a trip to the Gaza, so we can get a feel of the place for ourselves and experience life there.
I also dont think anybody should just "deal" with the loss of innocent life.
If this loss effected your family directly, would you just deal with it?
This thread has directed anger and blame at both sides, and on both sides there is corruption and malice..but to start dismissing the loss of anybodys life so flippantly is a sign of real ignorance.
And you should be fecking ashamed of yourself.
Maybe some of us need a trip to the Gaza, so we can get a feel of the place for ourselves and experience life there.
definitley agree that we shouldn't be indifferent to human suffering, although I'd suggest that living under rocket threat for years would make you more understanding of Israel's retaliation.
I think that the Palestinians were wrong to elect Hamas, and have to share the blame for Hamas actions even though many peace-seeking individuals voted Hamas because of Fatah corruption. If the blame for the latest suffering lies mostly with Hamas, the poverty and lack of improvement in living standards despite the enormous investments by the US and EU since 1994 have to be blamed on Palestinian leaderships ever since.
The reality is that every reasonable Israeli is probably more interested (at least should be) in improving living standards in Gaza and the WB than most racist Islamists who use the Palestinian cause for their own agenda. There will be no lasting peace in the ME if the Palestinians don't move on from the harsh reality of life in refugee camps, mixed with poverty and radical Islamist education.
I still find it hilarious (and some what disturbing) that you've actually got people here justifying the use of white phosphorous by insisting its legal
Hey its OK to burn people alive, some protocol says so!
You have people suggesting it is illegal.
Some people have pointed out that it is not on two different levels. The method it is being used, and the fact there is no law that binds Israel against using it however they want to use it. However Israel is abiding by the law that does not legally bind them.
So, Israel has used WP in a legal manner defined by the Geneva Conventions, even though this protocol does not bind Israel since as far as I know they have not signed protocol 3.
I especially like the "Yes, I'll concede that the comparison is not accurate, but in my mind that does not make this current generation of Israeli policy makers any different to the heinously wicked German policy makers of 70 years ago."
Translation.
I'll concede I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about, but nobody will change my mind, JEWZ R NAZIz!
Likewise, I suggest you try living in a densly-packed zone, where no where is safe from apache helicopters, random airstrikes, gunboat attacks and watching your friends and relatives get killed despite trying to avoid such a conflict. Then maybe you can understand their retaliation. Believe it or not but Palestinian lives are worth just as much as Israeli lives.
And again, ask yourself WHY they voted in Hamas, if you wernt too busy destroying their settlements, humiliating them and making corpses out of their children instead then Im sure they'd see no need to elect an organisation which has vowed to fight Israel.
Well, at the end of the day it seems pretty obvious that those who are more to blame for the whole ME situation are the most radical elements of the Palestinian society who simply can’t accept the existence of Israel and have its destruction at the top of their agenda.
It’s their provocations that somehow force the Israelis to retaliate, and this ends up with the death of many innocent decent Palestinian people who only want to live a normal life in peace and want bugger all to do with politics.
Call me naïve, but I tend to believe that Israel would accept the two-state solution, as long as the gang of nutters I was referring to before accepted it and stopped being a constant threat. I also believe the vast majority of the Palestinians have accepted it.
If this analysis is correct, it never ceases to amaze me how little the western world commentators speak/demonstrate against that gang of fundamentalists who are the ultimate hurdle to a peaceful coexistence.
It’s their provocations that somehow force the Israelis to retaliate, and this ends up with the death of many innocent decent Palestinian people who only want to live a normal life in peace and want bugger all to do with politics.
Call me naïve, but I tend to believe that Israel would accept the two-state solution, as long as the gang of nutters I was referring to before accepted it and stopped being a constant threat. I also believe the vast majority of the Palestinians have accepted it.
If this analysis is correct, it never ceases to amaze me how little the western world commentators speak/demonstrate against that gang of fundamentalists who are the ultimate hurdle to a peaceful coexistence.
What Israel offered in 2001 was not a free Palestinian state, according to them it was the best offer they'd ever give
Don't really get your point (sorry).
I think what Israel offered back then was as close as you can get to creating the conditions for a Palestinian State.
They voted for Hamas within a year of Israel's withdrawal from Gaza. I think part of this endless circle of violence is that victors can't find the courage to be generous. Israel has suffered from its own arrogance since the 1967 war (most notably in 1973), and I think the Palestinians followed the same mistake when Israel withdrew from Gaza. They interpreted the withdrawal as a defeat to Israel, rather than as an opportunity for peaceful future. They decided to turn the screw, and intensified rocket launching into Israel. This blew in thier faces 3 weeks ago, when up until then (for the rpevious 6 months) Gaza was safer than Southern Israel.
I really am not sure why the Palestinians voted for Hamas. It seems that you're implying it's the hardline stance towards Israel, whereas many other pro-Palestinians argue that the peace-seeking Gazans voted for the genocidal group only because of the Fatah corruption and hope for a better future economically. Either way democracy is about accountability, and I hope the Gazans have a nother go at free elections.
From your logic then, the Americans would deserve another 9/11 since they elected a leader who was responsible for the deaths of many thousands of innocents. Thats not the how the world works im afraid.
The Israelis have themselves to blame for certain threats against them, Hezbollah for example only exist due to Israel invading Lebanon, something which really wasnt necessary and only portrays imperialistic arrogance.
Hamas had held a year long ceasefire in the run up to the elections in 2006, they were not the warmongers you paint them, the Palestinians voted for Hamas because Fatah were a rubbish government and because Fatah and Israel had failed to make a peace deal and improve their lives
I think in this conflict Israel is the side that should be working twice as hard and should be seeking compromises rather than fighting fire with fire every time they feel threatened. Unfortunately for them.
Because the very founding of the state of Israel is poorly executed and the UN and all responsible for this stir should take most of the blame. It's basically because of them this conflict won't end in a foreseeable future.
But then again wise decisions are rare commodity in the history of mankind.
Because the very founding of the state of Israel is poorly executed and the UN and all responsible for this stir should take most of the blame. It's basically because of them this conflict won't end in a foreseeable future.
But then again wise decisions are rare commodity in the history of mankind.
So Hamas was elected to make a peace deal with Israel where Fatah couldn't?!? Highly unlikely. If you're going to elect a militant group then I don't think it's a stretch to expect a war.
They were not elected to make a peace deal immediately, but they were not making war at the time either, Hamas as a charity provides much for the people of Gaza and that was the biggest motive to vote for them
Fatah are a militant group, they have their own armed wing
So now Hamas is a charity group? FFS!
Couple intersting things from the cease fire so far.
Nice to see they can live up to the cease fire they so graciously put in place after the heavenly victory.
Have an infraction.
If you can't debate more maturely than this then don't post in here at all.
And there are quite a few others who are very very close to receiving infractions as well.
I don't think this action by Israel will do a great deal to help the situation in the long term even if it has reduced Hamas' ability to attack them temporarily.
That said I am amazed at the level of anti-Israeli rhetoric.
Lets imagine that the US government gave Hawaii hack to native Hawaiians, or Australia gave Thursday Island back to the indigenous population or the UK gave Scotland full independence and in each case the newly independent states vowed to annihilate their former rulers and shelled their cities with up to 50 rockets a day. What do you think would happen?
That said I am amazed at the level of anti-Israeli rhetoric.
Lets imagine that the US government gave Hawaii hack to native Hawaiians, or Australia gave Thursday Island back to the indigenous population or the UK gave Scotland full independence and in each case the newly independent states vowed to annihilate their former rulers and shelled their cities with up to 50 rockets a day. What do you think would happen?
Gaza was never given independence
Those are some fecking fatuous analogies in the context of Palestine.
So they set up schools. They are the govenment, they are supposed too. That has nothing to do with making them a charity, they are far from that.
They've been doing those things long before they became the governing power in Gaza
The same schools and hospitals they keep firing the rockets from? The same kindergartens in which they teach three-year olds to hate the Jews? Brilliant social service I must say!
Those were United nations schools, there was no fire from those locations according to the UN
I want to go back to your charity point. What exactly is the Hamas doing in that field?
I quoted some stuff earlier -
Hamas also runs extensive social programs[3] and has gained popularity in Palestinian society by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and other services[4] throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip
The [3] above refers to this link
Libraries can be used for terrorist purposes, library personnel working there as a cover for their Hamas activity, printing propaganda leaflets, claims of responsibility for attacks, etc.
Hospitals can be used to secure recruits, medical supplies, chemicals. There is a case of a doctor who provided help to infiltrate suicide bombers into Israel from the Jenin.
"Terrorists Misuse of Medical Services to Further Terrorist Activity," Israel Foreign Ministry, Aug. 26, 2002, at http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0md20. The FBI has described al-Ghazi Hospital as Hamas-affiliated; Watson memo.
A horrific case of what's happening in kindergartens: the graduation ceremony at a kindergarten run by al-Jam‘iya al-Islamiya, a Hamas charitable association run by Sheikh Ahmad Bahar, featured 1,600 preschool age children wearing uniforms and carrying pretend rifles. A five-year-old girl reenacted attacks on Israelis by dipping her hands in red paint, mimicking the bloodied hands Palestinians proudly displayed after the lynching of two Israelis in Ramallah (Ma‘ariv, June 23, 2002).
Hamas charities, social service organizations, hospitals, schools, and mosques openly laud suicide bombing, teach hate, and incite even the youngest and most impressionable of Palestinians to violence.
If you want to read more about it, here's a report called "Hamas from Cradle to Grave", by Matthew Levitt, published in the Middle East Quarterly, Winter 2004, pp. 3-15.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/opedsPDFs/4224db3950778.pdf
Toilets can be used for terrorist purposes, a Hamas member may take a dump in one and scrawl a bit of propaganda on the wall, oh the horror
Israel wants the Palestinians of Gaza to turn away from Hamas but to achieve that they bomb the people so they have to visit Hamas clinics, they starve the people so they have to go to Hamas for food, and they destroy their government institutions so all that is left for them are Hamas institutions
Wib,
I have been tempted to think along these lines, but it is much more complicated in a religious sense that wouldn't apply to any examples above.
The closest analogy is that of England and Ireland. And we all know the long and painful lessons that had to be learnt through that process, and how long it has taken for some sense of peace.
Hopefully, Israel and Palestine can learn from you Brits.
From Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip in mid-August 2005 until the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip 1,826 missiles were fired into Israeli territory from Gaza, as follows:
15 August - 31 December 2005: 270
1 January - 31 December 2006: 1020
1 January - 14 June 2007: 536
The numbers just don't add up to a "year-long" ceasefire. That unless you go back to the "it wasn't Hamas firing those rockets" argument (add the mortar bombs if you like).
The background to everything is always complicated, nuanced and with its own particular context. which is why I phrased the scenarios the way I did. No government will fail to react like the Israelis did (or something similar) when attacked within it's own borders again and again by an organisation that wants to obliterate their whole nation from the earth no matter what the background or context.
I'm not commenting on what could have been done to get to this point and the like but the realpolitik is that Israeli government had no choice. Hamas must have known that these attacks would result in such an action and probably wanted it to happen so they can point out what the nasty Israelis are doing.
As I think someone has already pointed out, if the IRA had been firing 50 rockets a day into mainland British cities the response would have been very different. The government would have had no choice. Public opinion, the people who voted for them, would have demanded it.
I'm far from pro-Israeli and they could have done more, far more to advance peace in the area BUT the Palestinians could have done even more if they really wanted peaceful coexistence, which they, or at least their government, plainly do not.
I actually tend to agree with Bury's solution which is a cross of banging both sides head's together and shouting "Stop it or Mummy will smack".
No they aren't. They are exactly the same. A land given to a people who did or claim to previously own the land in question who then want to destroy the country who gave the land back to them and are happy to launch hundreds of rockets at civilian targets. The analogies are accurate in that in all cases, irrespective of the background or history involved, the governments in question would be given no choice but to launch military attacks by their electorate.
It is like being surprised when you get attacked by a swarm of wasps just because you weren't the last time you stuck a stick in the nest.