The "England have had it easy" narrative

The really weird thing about all of this is that this England side have probably been the most liked in decades. So much so that many of the fans who traditionally back against England out of course (including many Irish fans like myself) have been quite happy to see England progress in the tournament thus far. Broadly positive coverage all round.

So where the hell has all this defensiveness come from? Imagining all my prejudices and biases are wiped clean, Tunisia, Panama, Colombia, Sweden, Croatia remains a relatively easy run of fixtures to a World Cup final. That is a neutral, subjective assessment, shared by most of the English media, let alone neutrals. The precious insistence that England have actually had it tough is not only biased but totally unnecessary. Having an easy run of fixtures is a good thing. Accepting that you were lucky in that regard doesn't

Had you faced the run of fixtures that some of your fellow semi-finalists have there's not a chance in hell you would have accepted that you had it easier. You would have looked at whichever team faced Tunisia, Panama, Colombia and Sweden and quite rightly said their run was easier than yours.
 
sullydnl said:
The really weird thing about all of this is that this England side have probably been the most liked in decades. So much so that many of the fans who traditionally back against England out of course (including many Irish fans like myself) have been quite happy to see England progress in the tournament thus far. Broadly positive coverage all round.

So where the hell has all this defensiveness come from? Imagining all my prejudices and biases are wiped clean, Tunisia, Panama, Colombia, Sweden, Croatia remains a relatively easy run of fixtures to a World Cup final. That is a neutral, subjective assessment, shared by most of the English media, let alone neutrals. The precious insistence that England have actually had it tough is not only biased but totally unnecessary.

Had you had the run of fixtures that some of your fellow semi-finalists had there's not a chance in hell you would have accepted that you had it easier than whoever faced Tunisia, Panama, Colombia and Sweden.
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Bingo
 
Irrational. said:
Perhaps a more objective way of looking at things is by comparing the latest FIFA rankings of the teams faced (I know some people think these are complete horseshit).

Interestingly, if you take the average of the rankings of the sides faced - then England are only behind France in terms of average quality of the opposition. Very surprised by that.

England:

Belgium (3)
Tunisia (21)
Panama (55)
Columbia (16)
Sweden (24)

Average ranking of teams faced: 23.8

Belgium:

England (12)
Tunisia (21)
Panama (55)
Japan (61)
Brazil (2)

Average ranking of teams faced: 30.2

Croatia:

Argentina (5)
Nigeria (48)
Iceland (22)
Denmark (12)
Russia (70)

Average ranking of teams faced: 31.4

France:

Denmark (12)
Peru (11)
Australia (36)
Argentina (5)
Uruguay (14)

Average ranking of teams faced: 15.6
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Excellent post.
 
Dante said:
"I know you are but what am I?" is stupidest thing you could have posted.

If you have the courage of your convictions, make a decent point.
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Nah, the stupidest thing I could have posted is
It's pretty simple. Imagine all your preconceptions are wrong. Wipe them clean. Without the burden or prior bias, would you come to the same conclusion starting from a clean slate?

The cognitive dissonance in the hatred surrounding England doesn't pass that test.

FWIW, I think the same holds true for some of the conspiracy theories postulated about United. It bullshit I have a problem with, regardless of whether it's pro/anti United or England.
 
Cascarino said:
Nah, the stupidest thing I could have posted is
It's pretty simple. Imagine all your preconceptions are wrong. Wipe them clean. Without the burden or prior bias, would you come to the same conclusion starting from a clean slate?

The cognitive dissonance in the hatred surrounding England doesn't pass that test.

FWIW, I think the same holds true for some of the conspiracy theories postulated about United. It bullshit I have a problem with, regardless of whether it's pro/anti United or England.
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1802 posts say otherwise.
 
Cascarino said:
If we're going to keep derailing the thread you've got to start being, you know, actually funny.
Mods, take this man away.
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I'm making actual points, and even asked you to make a point in return. But all you seem to be doing is changing a word or two of my posts and parroting them back to me without adding anything of any substance. I'd be happy if you engaged in an intelligent discussion.

How would you respond to Irrational's post I quoted above?
 
Dante said:
I'm making actual points, and even asked you to make a point in return. But all you seem to be doing is changing a word or two of my posts and parroting them back to me without adding anything of any substance. I'd be happy if you engaged in an intelligent discussion.

How do you respond to Irrational's post I quoted above.
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If you want an intelligent discussion you should make some intelligent points.

As for Irrational's post,

1.Fifa rankings are horseshit, he even mentioned that.
2.Croatia have had an easy route (though I'm sure I'm secretly biased against Croatia and a real ABC)
3.Belgium had an easy route, until they played Brazil.

So I'm not sure what Irrational's post is meant to prove? Englighten me amigo.
 
As per those FIFA rankings, facing Colombia/Sweden/Croatia is harder than facing Japan/Brazil/France. Nobody is actually going to argue that's the case with a straight face, are they? Surely ye're not that biased.
 
SER19 said:
That doesn’t surprise me, but I feel you’re expecting an unrealistic qualifying of every single statement and are raising the issue purely because you disagree with it. If it makes you feel better edit my posts with whatever qualifier makes you feel comfortable. You’ve neglected to quote my post that actively discourages lumping all England fans together. You’re arguing with the wrong person I think, or have created an illusion that you feel justifies your anger.

There are indeed posts in here that would really irritate me if I was an English fan. Offhand and snide comments in places on the forum. Seems odd that my posts provoked such annoyance but that’s your prerogative
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I'm not angry or annoyed mate, that's your projection. I'm just surprised at your statements regarding "England fans" since I pretty much agree with most things you say about United and you seem like a decent chap (if memory serves me correctly, which it doesn't always to be fair) so my impression was that you had a chip on your shoulder about England fans for some reason and i quoted some of the posts that made me think that. If you disagree then fair enough, we can move on and enjoy France vs Belgium tomorrow and hope the United lads put in a good showing!
 
sullydnl said:
As per those FIFA rankings, facing Colombia/Sweden/Croatia is harder than facing Japan/Brazil/France. Nobody is actually going to argue that's the case with a straight face, are they? Surely ye're not that biased.
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That is a bit of a daft argument because it only works out like that because Japan are ranked around 60th. France and Brazil are both ranked in the top 10. Colombia/Sweden/Croatia is a more consistent level of ranking, which is more in line with England's ranking, while Belgium's ranking is more in line with France and Brazil.

However, if we're, you know, using actual evidence to judge the strength of teams rather than judging them on what we think looks better on paper, the argument that England have been lucky to avoid an Argentina side that almost failed to qualify after losing to both Ecuador and Bolivia, got battered by Brazil, as well as failing to beat Venezuela in two attempts, drew with Iceland, got battered by Croatia, then scraped a late winner against Nigeria to snatch second in their group, rather than a Sweden side that beat France in the qualifiers, finished ahead of the Netherlands, beat Italy out in the play-offs, then beat South Korea, Mexico 3-0, and topped a group containing Germany, doesn't really hold up.
 
Alex99 said:
That is a bit of a daft argument because it only works out like that because Japan are ranked around 60th. France and Brazil are both ranked in the top 10. Colombia/Sweden/Croatia is a more consistent level of ranking, which is more in line with England's ranking, while Belgium's ranking is more in line with France and Brazil.

However, if we're, you know, using actual evidence to judge the strength of teams rather than judging them on what we think looks better on paper, the argument that England have been lucky to avoid an Argentina side that almost failed to qualify after losing to both Ecuador and Bolivia, got battered by Brazil, as well as failing to beat Venezuela in two attempts, drew with Iceland, got battered by Croatia, then scraped a late winner against Nigeria to snatch second in their group, rather than a Sweden side that beat France in the qualifiers, finished ahead of the Netherlands, beat Italy out in the play-offs, then beat South Korea, Mexico 3-0, and topped a group containing Germany, doesn't really hold up.
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Well yes, I was responding to Irrational's point which also only works out because Japan are ranked 61st. That's why averaging out rankings is stupid.

As for the bold, I'm not sure what you mean? Are we supposed to be judging these fixtures relative to England's level or something?

My post didn't mention Argentina and I think Croatia have had a relatively easy run to the final too so.... *shrugs*
 
You know the England NT is doing something right (even if it is just a momentary diversion from the norm) when people stop criticising the team and instead start microanalysing England Fan opinion and behaviour instead.
 
fishfingers15 said:
But they still had it easy than say Croatia. Surely you are in agreement
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No. Colombia, even without James, is better than both Denmark and Russia. Arguably the group stage was easier but Argentina have been absolutely pants for the past year, so even that's debatable.
 
I've already stated myself I feel Colombia was a difficult match, also Sweden.

It's now been seen as an easy route by people, but before each game we are inferior.
 
Of course they've had it easy. Doesn't mean they don't deserve to be there because you can only beat what's in front of you. But they've still had it easy.
 
Pre World Cup draw:

Game 1 v Tunisia
Game 2 v Panama
Game 3 v Belgium (already qualified)
R16 v Colombia without their best player by a mile
QF v Sweden
SF v Croatia

Show me an England fan who wouldn’t have bitten a hand or two off for that run and I’ll show you;

A) a liar
B) mental retardation

End the thread FFS. It’s a dream scenario to get to your first final in over 50 years.
 
Arbitrium said:
Pre World Cup draw:

Game 1 v Tunisia
Game 2 v Panama
Game 3 v Belgium (already qualified)
R16 v Colombia without their best player by a mile
QF v Sweden
SF v Croatia

Show me an England fan who wouldn’t have bitten a hand or two off for that run and I’ll show you;

A) a liar
B) mental retardation

End the thread FFS. It’s a dream scenario to get to your first final in over 50 years.
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That's true.
 
People who don’t like England have to find some kind of stick to beat them with. It’s the same with fans who are anti- United. I have friends who support city, Leeds, Liverpool and they can’t accept any United success. It’s always down to external factors such as a corrupt fa/ refs, easy cup runs, fixtures in their favour etc. Don’t rise to the bait, just say ‘meh’ and enjoy the journey. England may well go out in the semi and they’ll all be waiting with their opposition scarves. Get over it already.
 
The route is easy because other teams have flopped, so whether they are actually good is debatable. So the main thing is this. Long before the tournament when you looked at England's possible route from second place and you saw winner of Argentina's group, winner of Germany's group, Spain or Portugal. Would you have considered it an easy path back then? Probably, well most likely not.
That's the answer.
 
Was a different story though when Liverpool only played the likes of Hoffenheim , Maribor , Sevilla , Porto , City and Roma .

;)
 
Vilev said:
The route is easy because other teams have flopped, so whether they are actually good is debatable. So the main thing is this. Long before the tournament when you looked at England's possible route from second place and you saw winner of Argentina's group, winner of Germany's group, Spain or Portugal. Would you have considered it an easy path back then? Probably, well most likely not.
That's the answer.
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:lol: how is what might have happened a better answer than what actually happened?you guys are insane
 
Every few years we could have a competition where various people get together and decide, based on names and reputation, which team is the best in the world.

On the other hand, the current competition ignores names and reputation and just puts one team up against another to fine out which is the best.

In comp A, Germany don’t enter until the QF stage because they are so good. In the real world, they are turd, and finish last in their group.
 
Nadger said:
Every few years we could have a competition where various people get together and decide, based on names and reputation, which team is the best in the world.

On the other hand, the current competition ignores names and reputation and just puts one team up against another to fine out which is the best.

In comp A, Germany don’t enter until the QF stage because they are so good. In the real world, they are turd, and finish last in their group.
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Well Messi isn't included
 
Billy Blaggs said:
Turns out he wasn't

He's no Maradona
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i think you misunderstood my point. Some say the England have had an easy route because they’d have only had to play Loserland, Easyia and Uselessio. Meanwhile, XYZia have had to play Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Mars, Alpha Centuri and the FIFA World XI. But XYZia’s opponents are being judged on their names and reputations, rather than their performances.
 
Eboue said:
how is what might have happened a better answer than what actually happened?you guys are insane
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Answer me this. What is an easier match, a Man City out of form and out of sorts or a Everton's game if they are having game of their lives?
 
Nadger said:
Some say the England have had an easy route because they’d have only had to play Loserland, Easyia and Uselessio. Meanwhile, XYZia have had to play Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Mars, Alpha Centuri and the FIFA World XI.
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:lol:
 
Vilev said:
Answer me this. What is an easier match, a Man City out of form and out of sorts or a Everton's game if they are having game of their lives?
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So by your definition saudi arabia probably had the toughest draw as russia and uruguay were in such good form on that day? Or englands quarter final was easy as sweden, in that match, were horrendously bad. Get real, this thread has lost its mind several times over, because some people dared to suggest Panama tunisia colombia sweden is an easy/straightforward/comfortable/call it what you like- route to a world cup semi final.

In doing so theyre either sad and bitter or just plain anti england, and the most convoluted, hypothetical , meandering explanations i have seen have been used by some to justify it. Ive never seen such a sensitive touchy bunch as some in this thread.

Lets just all agree that their route has been a minefield of complications and that somehow this unfancied team of youngsters have managed to overcome these titanic battles.
 
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