It was such a weird game to watch that.
When Rashford went through on goal I wanted him to score but then when he missed I was happy. Bizarre.
The "England have had it easy" narrative
- Thread starter Alex99
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It was such a weird game to watch that.
When Rashford went through on goal I wanted him to score but then when he missed I was happy. Bizarre.
Personally, I still hoped we would win the game. A group of international class footballer sactively setting out to lose a game doesn't sit right with me.
Then again, who cares, it's coming home!
It's absolutely coming home.
I've not seen any criticism on Twitter. It's mostly wrestling twaddle on my feed.
I'll agree that you probably won't find anyone seriously saying "England are shit" or "the teams England have played are shit" but I'm not talking about those specific phrases. I'm exaggerating the general attitude that seems to be prevailing about England. This, to me, is that England are fortunate to have got as far as they are because they have only played poor teams. I've seen very little to suggest that the general consensus is that England have done very well to be in the semi-finals because almost every post from a non-England fan about the subject explicitly refers to England's great fortune at having an easy draw. To me, "doing very well" and "being very lucky" are entirely at odds with each other.
You've said something there that I think is one of the key points here; "the very top-tier of international football." How many teams belong to the very top-tier of international football? What are the criteria for being one of the teams belonging to the very top-tier of international football? And I think most importantly, who are these teams that belong to the very top-tier of international football?
This is one of the things I've addressed repeatedly. A list of "elite" teams has been dished out a fair few times, with these "elite" teams being the eight of Argentina, Brazil, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Spain and Portugal. Historically speaking, I'd agree that the these teams have been in and around the top of the game for many a year, but in terms of their quality today, few have proven worthy of the tag.
Italy and Netherlands didn't even qualify for the tournament. Germany finished bottom of their group, losing to both Mexico and South Korea. Spain laboured through their group, and were then knocked out by a heavily unfancied Russia in the first knockout round. Can you really argue for any of those sides being labeled "elite" or belonging to the top-tier of international football?
After them, there's Portugal, who also laboured through the same group as Spain, but were then knocked out by Uruguay in the first knockout round, and Argentina, another who struggled in the group, but were knocked out by France at the same stage. Is a team that achieved only a narrow victory against Morocco and a draw against Iran considered elite? Is a team that, firstly, only just qualified for the tournament, and secondly, failed to beat Iceland and got humiliated by Croatia considered elite? To me, no.
This now leaves us with France and Brazil, the latter of which has had their status as "elite" questioned on this very forum. Allowing Brazil to maintain the status, does this mean that there are just two elite teams? If not, who are the others? Uruguay, who knocked out Portugal? Croatia, who humiliated Argentina? Belgium, who knocked out Brazil? Or are some/all of Portugal, Argentina, Germany, Spain, Netherlands and Italy always considered
If the very top-tier is an exclusive club of few members, then surely it's a fairly common occurrence for teams to reach semi-finals while avoiding the small pool deemed "the best", and not incredibly fortuitous as many have made out? If the very top-tier is a more extended list that includes teams of vastly different quality, then I'm not really sure how it's luck to come up against teams that have objectively outperformed a number of those teams, but are seemingly excluded from that group for no real reason other than being an unglamorous name?
Were Switzerland or Belgium in the very top-tier when Argentina faced them to reach the semi-final in 2014? Mexico or Costa Rica for Netherlands? Chile or Colombia for Brazil?
Were South Korea or Ghana in the very top-tier when Uruguay faced them to reach the semi-final in 2010? Australia or Ukraine for Italy in 2006?
Were Paraguay or USA in the very top-tier when Germany reached the semi-final in 2002? Would Republic of Ireland or South Korea represented the very top-tier had Spain got there? Did Spain even represent the very top tier in 2002? Belgium or England for Brazil? Japan or Senegal for Turkey?
Were Chile or Denmark in the very top-tier for Brazil in 1998? Saudi Arabia or Romania for Sweden in 1994?
Has England's draw been more favourable than it could have been? Possibly, but the in form Germany they could have faced turned out to be crap, so they got a team that proved themselves better. Is this the first time a team not among the tournament favourites as reached the semi-final without having to beat one of the tournament favourites to get there? Absolutely not. In fact it seems to happen for at least one side every World Cup, frequently more, which would make me question why it's such a big talking point when it comes to England this time around, if there is, as claimed, no bitterness, jealousy or resentment from non-England fans about their success so far in the tournament.
Regardless of the easy line clear to me if England make the final their back 3 will finally face a world class striker in great form in Mbappe. It's a little bit of a tougher challenge than Marcus Berg and Tonovion!
Who's the best striker England faced in competition so far from the start, Falcao?
Who's the best striker England faced in competition so far from the start, Falcao?
France are shit.
England back 3 would massively struggle against Mbappe imo. If they focus purely on him Greizmann will have extra space to make runs.
Then in midfield you have Kante-Pogba. Kante does running of two players and Pogba obviously has point to prove to his friends in England.
Very tough match up imo if England get through. Would be amazed if England kept a clean sheet and don't see them scoring twice v this France defence.
Then in midfield you have Kante-Pogba. Kante does running of two players and Pogba obviously has point to prove to his friends in England.
Very tough match up imo if England get through. Would be amazed if England kept a clean sheet and don't see them scoring twice v this France defence.
France scare me.
Well if we lose to Croatia, we will have avoided the tough route and we'll play Belgium's B team instead.
Think they’ll do alright in the big one this Saturday evening.
France are winning the world cup.
We are going to win. France are chancers. Modric, with his Alice band is all they have. This England team don't have the detritus of failure. They won again and again under Southgate. It is coming home. Croatia will be hard but they have no imagination, they are tired. And France? We have a big score to settle.
Turns out they had it easy eh. Hard for dross like Hendo to look good against proper opposition. I fear for some in here after that, who seemed in full meltdown mode when they were still in it 
3 decent teams faced
Lost to Belgium
Penalty win over Colombia (without their star player)
Lost to a tired Croatia.
England beat Panama, Tunisia and Sweden. Elites.
Lost to Belgium
Penalty win over Colombia (without their star player)
Lost to a tired Croatia.
England beat Panama, Tunisia and Sweden. Elites.
Shhhh the crazies will be in to post novel long posts about how Sweden are actually awesome
OP - proven.
That should be thread close. They had it easy and got found out.
Found out tonight.
An average team that beat some below average opposition. They didnt even face one of the big teams (Croatia arent one of them), they'll never have such a lucky draw again.
Laughing at the commentators saying England have established themselves again. Semis is the minimum expectation for big teams, this is England's first semi in almost 3 decades.
And Gary Neville is still talking down Croatia - they're better than England, just accept it!!
Laughing at the commentators saying England have established themselves again. Semis is the minimum expectation for big teams, this is England's first semi in almost 3 decades.
And Gary Neville is still talking down Croatia - they're better than England, just accept it!!
They have full stop, close thread
Where’s the essay king gone?
flukey cnuts the lot of them
This is what I was saying a few days back.
Not easy enough
Oh look, first half decent side they come up against and they’re bundled out.
The “it’s coming home” arrogance looks a bit silly now.
The “it’s coming home” arrogance looks a bit silly now.
Lost against the two tops teams they faced. England had it easy for the most part, it's undeniable.
Turns out Sweden aren’t the cats whiskers or a great barometer despite several essays in here.
So how many goals from open play? Clear evidence Britsh players lack the technique, awareness and finess to create goals like other teams.
England don't have it easy anymore. But reaching semi finals was no small feat, even with the relatively easy draw they had
If they lose against Belgium again, they literally won't have beaten any decent team in the tournament. Pretty conclusive.
I’ll cut @Alex99 some slack as I enjoy his Liverpool lacerations but I still think he lost the run of himself during this thread.
However, if you can’t get giddy about your country potentially winning the World Cup, then the game is gone, lads. It’s all good natured, after all.
However, if you can’t get giddy about your country potentially winning the World Cup, then the game is gone, lads. It’s all good natured, after all.
Yeah Croatia were the first real footballing test and they failed.
And they aren't even a big a test as France, Belgium, Brazil, prime Germany/Spain/Argentina. Or even Italy and Holland, had they qualified.
Still, good progress has been made.
And they aren't even a big a test as France, Belgium, Brazil, prime Germany/Spain/Argentina. Or even Italy and Holland, had they qualified.
Still, good progress has been made.
Couldnt have asked for a easier path to the finals...
It was like Liverpool's path to the CL finals.. Liverpool got past Roma. England couldnt get past Croatia.
It was like Liverpool's path to the CL finals.. Liverpool got past Roma. England couldnt get past Croatia.