Varchester City 18/19 discussion

Peyroteo said:
What happened in the late 2000s then with Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and United getting to several CL finals and semifinals?

Did they do it without ‘modern tactics’? Were they worse than they are now?
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Not necessarily worse but not better either. I consider City a better team than any of those were in their respective primes. However, Liverpool is slightly worse than United in 2008 IMO. Yet I I think that this "generation" of EPL top clubs will eventually surpass them. Believe Chelsea will probably reach City levels at some point in the future while Liverpool may have already peaked.

Besides that, I think that the English dominance you are talking about occurred when the game wasn't very tactical whatsoever. As soon as the game became more tactical again their kick'n'rush approach was toothless both against possession-oriented as well as pressing and transition teams. 2008 with Spain winning the EC and Guardiola taking over Barca was a turning point. Even SAFs United was clearly inferior to Barca 2009-2015, Real 2014-2017 and Bayern 2013-2016. I think City is a lot closer to these teams and probably even on their level if you take out Barcelona 2009-2011.
 
Zehner said:
Not necessarily worse but not better either. I consider City a better team than any of those were in their respective primes. However, Liverpool is slightly worse than United in 2008 IMO. Yet I I think that this "generation" of EPL top clubs will eventually surpass them. Believe Chelsea will probably reach City levels at some point in the future while Liverpool may have already peaked.

Besides that, I think that the English dominance you are talking about occurred when the game wasn't very tactical whatsoever. As soon as the game became more tactical again their kick'n'rush approach was toothless both against possession-oriented as well as pressing and transition teams. 2008 with Spain winning the EC and Guardiola taking over Barca was a turning point. Even SAFs United was clearly inferior to Barca 2009-2015, Real 2014-2017 and Bayern 2013-2016. I think City is a lot closer to these teams and probably even on their level if you take out Barcelona 2009-2011.
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They were inferior because they had worst players, not because the game didn't involve tactics before Pep came around... :wenger: Pep Guardiola did not invent tactics. Saying the game wasn't tactical whatsover before he became a manager is so wrong...

Calling the english teams' style of play kick and rush is the equivalent of saying Pep's style is passing sideways. Besides, even with much worse squads it's simply not true they looked toothless, Chelsea 2009 and 2012, Arsenal in 2011... when Spain won the Euros in 2008, 3 english teams made the CL semis.

There's no way this City team is better than United in 2007-09. You have an incredibly close-minded vision of what football is.
 
Zehner said:
Not necessarily worse but not better either. I consider City a better team than any of those were in their respective primes. However, Liverpool is slightly worse than United in 2008 IMO. Yet I I think that this "generation" of EPL top clubs will eventually surpass them. Believe Chelsea will probably reach City levels at some point in the future while Liverpool may have already peaked.
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The Utd of 2008 are better than any other British league team past or present. To actually say that Liverpool are only slightly worse than our 2008 team is bizarre. I'd even back our 99 side to win the league at present. The way the season is panning out City may well get to 100 pts again. This indicates how poor the league is at the moment.
 
PepG said:
Nope, but i would argue that he definitely defines and dictates the modern day tactics in todays football :smirk:
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And why do you think that's the case when pretty much none of the top teams in world football plays like a Pep Guardiola team?

The 5 best teams in the world in the past few years were managed by Zidane, Allegri, Ancelotti, Simeone and Ernesto Valverde... clearly we have very different definitions of what 'modern tactics' are.

The only other top team manager with very similar ideas is Sarri who hasn't won a trophy in his whole career.
 
What?! Playing from the back, constantly high pressing and recovering the ball seconds after is lost, high line of defence - all of this is used by almost all big clubs in the last couple of years and it was firstly introduced and presented by Barcelona.. Pep's Barcelona :lol: They even gegenpressed well before Klopp's star to arise:rolleyes:

Edit: And btw Zinedine Zidane went to watch and learn from Pep's Bayern when he was still Castilla coach.. If you compare Zidane's Real and Pep's Bayern you could clearly see from where Zizou got the idea of the constant wing-play:smirk:
 
PepG said:
What?! Playing from the back, constantly high pressing and recovering the ball seconds after is lost, high line of defence - all of this is used by almost all big clubs in the last couple of years and it was firstly introduced and presented by Barcelona.. Pep's Barcelona :lol: They even gegenpressed well before Klopp's star to arise:rolleyes:
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What? That’s been the case way before Guardiola was even a player nevermid a manager... top teams do it, doesn’t make it Guardiola’s invention because he did it too :wenger:

Allegri's Juventus presses high sometimes, they can keep the ball too, etc. but it's beyond obvious he comes from a clearly different mindset about the game than Guardiola and the influences aren't there.

Klopp’s ideas were the same at Mainz before Dortmund... or are you trying to say Pep’s Barcelona influenced Klopp’s Dortmund and Liverpool to play the way they do? If you credit what every team does to him, then it’s true that he invented modern tactics.
 
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Peyroteo said:
The only other top team manager with very similar ideas is Sarri who hasn't won a trophy in his whole career.
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Thomas Tuchel is at PSG, Julen Lopetegui was at Real, Erik Ten Hag is at Ajax.. Paulo Fonseca at Shakhtar Donetsk, Julian Nagelsmann at Hoffenheim, Roberto Di Zerbi at Sasuolo deserve a mention too..Joachim Low in the past, Gareth Southgate now and Roberto Martinez as a coach of Belgium should be named as a coaches that use/used some of Pep's ideas more or less successfully..As a new entry i would add even Thierry Henry:lol:
 
Zehner said:
Not necessarily worse but not better either. I consider City a better team than any of those were in their respective primes. However, Liverpool is slightly worse than United in 2008 IMO. Yet I I think that this "generation" of EPL top clubs will eventually surpass them. Believe Chelsea will probably reach City levels at some point in the future while Liverpool may have already peaked.

Besides that, I think that the English dominance you are talking about occurred when the game wasn't very tactical whatsoever. As soon as the game became more tactical again their kick'n'rush approach was toothless both against possession-oriented as well as pressing and transition teams. 2008 with Spain winning the EC and Guardiola taking over Barca was a turning point. Even SAFs United was clearly inferior to Barca 2009-2015, Real 2014-2017 and Bayern 2013-2016. I think City is a lot closer to these teams and probably even on their level if you take out Barcelona 2009-2011.
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:confused::confused:
 
Denis_unwise said:
The Utd of 2008 are better than any other British league team past or present. To actually say that Liverpool are only slightly worse than our 2008 team is bizarre. I'd even back our 99 side to win the league at present. The way the season is panning out City may well get to 100 pts again. This indicates how poor the league is at the moment.
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How the hell is out league poor atm? Probably the best managers and best young players in the world. This statement keeps on getting said and it’s such utter horseshit. Most teams in the EPL are actually trying to play football.
 
InLevyITrust said:
How the hell is out league poor atm? Probably the best managers and best young players in the world. This statement keeps on getting said and it’s such utter horseshit. Most teams in the EPL are actually trying to play football.
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Probably no one on this site would even contemplate that current City under Guardiola just might be a better league side than Utd 2007-09, so some sort of explanation needs to be found. They are getting 100+ points because the league is weak.
 
De Portago said:
Probably no one on this site would even contemplate that current City under Guardiola just might be a better league side than Utd 2007-09, so some sort of explanation needs to be found. They are getting 100+ points because the league is weak.
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Take a look at the sides back in 2007 and tell me they were better than the bottom sides now? City are winning because they have a very, very good team in every position. There are no also ran squad fillers, almost every player is a top player. And they have run away with the league last season I don’t think it will be as much of a gap this season, but last season they got 100points because they deserved it.

I’d say the 2007-2008 United first team was better than cities currently but there squad as a whole isn’t.
 
De Portago said:
Probably no one on this site would even contemplate that current City under Guardiola just might be a better league side than Utd 2007-09, so some sort of explanation needs to be found. They are getting 100+ points because the league is weak.
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So the stronger the league is, the lower the champion's point total is?
 
This Manchester City side are the best the PL era has seen. As proven by almost every metric - most notably goals scored and points accumulated. They've surpassed the invincibles, Mourinho's first Chelsea and Man Utd 2008.
 
adexkola said:
So the stronger the league is, the lower the champion's point total is?
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Football isn’t as simple as that, the game has been diluted a lot over the last 10 years, notably the physicality which when taking about the way City play is a huge advantage to them.
 
InLevyITrust said:
Take a look at the sides back in 2007 and tell me they were better than the bottom sides now? City are winning because they have a very, very good team in every position. There are no also ran squad fillers, almost every player is a top player. And they have run away with the league last season I don’t think it will be as much of a gap this season, but last season they got 100points because they deserved it.

I’d say the 2007-2008 United first team was better than cities currently but there squad as a whole isn’t.
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adexkola said:
So the stronger the league is, the lower the champion's point total is?
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I guess there's been a misunderstanding. Second sentence isn't my opinion, more an attempt to paint the prevailing consensus here.

If you ask me, City is absolutely brutal, and has shown a level of PL dominance in a single season that none of Sir Alex's teams have shown throughout his career IMO. He's on course to do it again. Watering that down to the league being weak makes no sense to me personally.
 
PepG said:
Thomas Tuchel is at PSG, Julen Lopetegui was at Real, Erik Ten Hag is at Ajax.. Paulo Fonseca at Shakhtar Donetsk, Julian Nagelsmann at Hoffenheim, Roberto Di Zerbi at Sasuolo deserve a mention too..Joachim Low in the past, Gareth Southgate now and Roberto Martinez as a coach of Belgium should be named as a coaches that use/used some of Pep's ideas more or less successfully..As a new entry i would add even Thierry Henry:lol:
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Monaco play nothing like a Guardiola team though... and Paulo Fonseca is an adaptive coach, his Shakhtar team is very different from his Porto and Braga teams. Tuchel is a product of the evolution of the german game than someone who's been influenced by Pep, same as Nagelsmann. Lopetegui, Sarri and Di Zerbi are the only ones that I know where you can find obvious Guardiola ideas put in place.

Atributing 'modern tactics' to Pep Guardiola is just an incredibly misguided view of what the sport has been in the past few years.
 
InLevyITrust said:
Take a look at the sides back in 2007 and tell me they were better than the bottom sides now? City are winning because they have a very, very good team in every position.
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And because there's an incredible amount of dross in the Premier League... Wolves will finish top of the table with a core of players that weren't good enough for the top teams in Portugal.

There's a reason they don't do as well in Europe while in 2005-09, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and United were regular semifinalists and finalists in the Champions League. Tottenham have 30 points in 13 games,Liverpool have 33 and they both can easily end up getting knocked out in the group stages of the Champions League.
 
ShadesOfTomato said:
This Manchester City side are the best the PL era has seen. As proven by almost every metric - most notably goals scored and points accumulated. They've surpassed the invincibles, Mourinho's first Chelsea and Man Utd 2008.
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The United side of 1999 was superior to any of those mentioned above and would more than compete with this current City team.

I think that United side would come out on top over the course of a long and gruelling season on sheer willpower alone.
 
OldSchoolManc said:
I have ZERO respect for Guardiola. By working under the owners regime, he is condoning and promoting, slavery, murder and torture.
Absolute hypocrite to fight for his own people, then casually ignore millions of people that are in a hellish situation.
No morals whatsoever.
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Absolutely pathetic post, you must take offence everywhere in society. It would take Pep roughly two minutes to turn you over if you ever met, and you’d be drooling to take a selfie with your smart phone, made by tiny little Asian kids under atrocious conditions. Buhu. Was Mata wrong for playing under Abramovich? What about Silva at City? Genuinely the nicest blokes in football.
 
Peyroteo said:
And because there's an incredible amount of dross in the Premier League... Wolves will finish top of the table with a core of players that weren't good enough for the top teams in Portugal.

There's a reason they don't do as well in Europe while in 2005-09, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and United were regular semifinalists and finalists in the Champions League. Tottenham have 30 points in 13 games,Liverpool have 33 and they both can easily end up getting knocked out in the group stages of the Champions League.
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There has always been an incredible amount of dross in any league.
 
Random Task said:
The United side of 1999 was superior to any of those mentioned above and would more than compete with this current City team.

I think that United side would come out on top over the course of a long and gruelling season on sheer willpower alone.
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I think that was the Fergie factor, turning average players like Brown, O’shea, Butt etc into disciplined players, Pep has more a tactical approach of giving an understand to each player what they have to do. Both legends but both very different.
 
InLevyITrust said:
There has always been an incredible amount of dross in any league.
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Not always, certainly not as much as now anyway. Which is why in 2005-09 you had 4 english teams amongst the best in the world not getting to 90 points and now you have teams that aren't close to being the best in the world aiming for 90+ points.
 
James Peril said:
Absolutely pathetic post, you must take offence everywhere in society. It would take Pep roughly two minutes to turn you over if you ever met, and you’d be drooling to take a selfie with your smart phone, made by tiny little Asian kids under atrocious conditions. Buhu. Was Mata wrong for playing under Abramovich? What about Silva at City? Genuinely the nicest blokes in football.
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Disagree.

The hypocrisy shown by Guardiola far surpasses any of your examples. He is actively breaking rules to make a political protest while ignoring his paymasters indiscretions.
 
Peyroteo said:
Not always, certainly not as much as now anyway. Which is why in 2005-09 you had 4 english teams amongst the best in the world not getting to 90 points and now you have teams that aren't close to being the best in the world aiming for 90+ points.
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It’s not as simple as that, 10 years ago you had mostly long ball merchants in the PL, now tes try to play football.
 
Peyroteo said:
Not always, certainly not as much as now anyway. Which is why in 2005-09 you had 4 english teams amongst the best in the world not getting to 90 points and now you have teams that aren't close to being the best in the world aiming for 90+ points.
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City and Liverpool aren't close to being the best in the world? Really?

Who is then, if you don't mind me asking?
 
ShadesOfTomato said:
This Manchester City side are the best the PL era has seen. As proven by almost every metric - most notably goals scored and points accumulated. They've surpassed the invincibles, Mourinho's first Chelsea and Man Utd 2008.
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Until we win a CL both United teams are better.
 
InLevyITrust said:
I think that was the Fergie factor, turning average players like Brown, O’shea, Butt etc into disciplined players, Pep has more a tactical approach of giving an understand to each player what they have to do. Both legends but both very different.
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Brown and O'Shea were not a part of the '99 squad. However, Butt was a big part of that squad and his role would have been more significant if he didn't have to compete with 2 of the best midfielders of the Premier Leauge era.

Fergie was no fool in the tactical department, clearly, but his strengths came from an innate ability to adapt to any given situation. Knocking Liverpool of their fecking perch for starters, then came Jack Walker and his cash-injected Blackburn side, the not-so-invincible Invincibles, a Roman Abramovich-fueled Chelsea, finally ending in league triumph ahead of yet another sugar-daddy club, City.

The brilliance of that '99 side was the pinnacle of Fergie's achievements within the game and they'd be a massive challenge for City today.
 
Random Task said:
Brown and O'Shea were not a part of the '99 squad. However, Butt was a big part of that squad and his role would have been more significant if he didn't have to compete with 2 of the best midfielders of the Premier Leauge era.

Fergie was no fool in the tactical department, clearly, but his strengths came from an innate ability to adapt to any given situation. Knocking Liverpool of their fecking perch for starters, then came Jack Walker and his cash-injected Blackburn side, the not-so-invincible Invincibles, a Roman Abramovich-fueled Chelsea, finally ending in league triumph ahead of yet another sugar-daddy club, City.

The brilliance of that '99 side was the pinnacle of Fergie's achievements within the game and they'd be a massive challenge for City today.
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I’m in no way saying he was tactically lacking but his biggest strength was as motivation and as you say an ability to adapt to many game plans. He had plan A, plan B, and C, D and E which no manager really has today. Anyway the comparison of teams now to 10 years ago are a little to much Liverpool like for me. It’s a pointless tribal argument.
 
InLevyITrust said:
I’m in no way saying he was tactically lacking but his biggest strength was as motivation and as you say an ability to adapt to many game plans. He had plan A, plan B, and C, D and E which no manager really has today. Anyway the comparison of teams now to 10 years ago are a little to much Liverpool like for me. It’s a pointless tribal argument.
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I like to reminisce, it keeps my mind off of Jose Mourinho and the fact that he remains manager of our club. Somehow.
 
I'm not convinced by City defensively. Midfield and up front they are frightening and their style of play is exciting. Guardiola deserves great credit. Yes he had had a truck load of cash to spend but for the most part he has spent it wisely. Yes he did inherit Sterling, KDB, Aguero and Silva.D but he has shrewdly added to what he did inherit and they are now a machine.
 
De Portago said:
City and Liverpool aren't close to being the best in the world? Really?

Who is then, if you don't mind me asking?
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City are close, but you have Liverpool, Tottenham, Chelsea and even Arsenal on course to get 80+ points easily and they're not anywhere near as estabilhed in Europe as United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal were in 2005-09... when those teams got 80 points.

So why is that?
 
padr81 said:
Until we win a CL both United teams are better.
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Maybe, but in the league? There hasn't been an English side this good domestically ever. The margin of error if you want to even compete with them is minute and nothing that has been seen before.
 
nore1975 said:
I'm not convinced by City defensively. Midfield and up front they are frightening and their style of play is exciting. Guardiola deserves great credit. Yes he had had a truck load of cash to spend but for the most part he has spent it wisely. Yes he did inherit Sterling, KDB, Aguero and Silva.D but he has shrewdly added to what he did inherit and they are now a machine.
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Yup most great teams in recent years would hammer in goals past them. Only problem is, everyone is in decline while they're in their prime.

For example, a 3rd (4th?) place Liverpool team last year beat them 3 times easily because of their fire power. Just imagine the fire power of United 08, Barcelona 15-16, 08-12, Bayern 14, Madrid 16. All these teams had a brilliant midfield and defense which Liverpool didn't have.


Ifs and buts though...
 
nore1975 said:
I'm not convinced by City defensively. Midfield and up front they are frightening and their style of play is exciting. Guardiola deserves great credit. Yes he had had a truck load of cash to spend but for the most part he has spent it wisely. Yes he did inherit Sterling, KDB, Aguero and Silva.D but he has shrewdly added to what he did inherit and they are now a machine.
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They are redefining the art of defending. They won the league with fabian delph as makeshift left back and average otamendi. in fact None of their back 4 are world class but the way the ball is manipulated means the defence is barely tested. They could play midfielder at CB and wouldn't make any single difference. Certainly in the PL at least. Remains to be seen if they are good enough for the CL
 
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