UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)

Yep Kinks, it's a tough one. In an open society a criminal record is and should be public knowledge. People have a right to know that they might be hiring a criminal. But, prejudice against ex-cons makes them getting a job very difficult and a clear cause of recidivism amongst ex-cons.

I think the solution lies with prison education and programmes aimed at getting cons meaningful jobs and training when they get out. This all costs money and your average joe public won't want to pay for it...not seeing that it pays for itself in the long run.

BTW...I'm full of admiration for what you do. It sounds like you genuinely try and help folk...well done!
 
Track them all down and make them pay for everything they stole.

Unfortunately we're going to be rounding them all up and paying for their prison sentences. I'd like to see a state run factory opened up where they were all forced to work 40 hour weeks for accommodation plus food vouchers. It may even make our justice system profitable though even with nigh on free labour it would take a miracle for the public sector to organise anything that well.
 
It is right to blame the vandals and make them responsible for what they have doen, but the most important question is how do you change things. These youths need mentoring from role models in their community, and this is especially true of the younger ones who are more likely to be able to change. In the absence of a suitable father, the communities will have to engage in extensive grass roots efforts to do this. Mentoring is a long-term process that requires patience, trust and understanding.

Doing away with community youth groups run by not only those who are qualified, but also ex-offenders is an absolute disaster. These youth-groups should be funded, and there should be jobs in these youth groups that are paid. We've come to believe that youth-groups are excess of society and should only exist if people have a little extra time to spare in their busy lives.

Thing is...the last 4 days have shown the utter folly in this thinking. What we have seen is the result of a generation of parent-less children. Not in all cases I'll admit. Some got carried away, but many have awful home lives with absolutely no love and affection. Perhaps this has come at the right time. Perhaps this has forced the government to stop focusing on other things and spend more time zoning in on the small, medium and large communities that make up the UK. If we lose this generation then what ?
 
Unfortunately we're going to be rounding them all up and paying for their prison sentences. I'd like to see a state run factory opened up where they were all forced to work 40 hour weeks for accommodation plus food vouchers. It may even make our justice system profitable though even with nigh on free labour it would take a miracle for the public sector to organise anything that well.

Don't they have this is prison no ? I'm not sure by the way, which is why I ask. I know in the U.S they have prisoners make things like number pates and zippos :)

I guess you'd have to get the right blend of prisoners. You wouldn't want to get some bloke throwing another inmate through a mincing machine etc
 
Yep Kinks, it's a tough one. In an open society a criminal record is and should be public knowledge. People have a right to know that they might be hiring a criminal. But, prejudice against ex-cons makes them getting a job very difficult and a clear cause of recidivism amongst ex-cons.

I think the solution lies with prison education and programmes aimed at getting cons meaningful jobs and training when they get out. This all costs money and your average joe public won't want to pay for it...not seeing that it pays for itself in the long run.

BTW...I'm full of admiration for what you do. It sounds like you genuinely try and help folk...well done!

It's nice to hear that Grinner. Thank you. You something think you're doing feck all, but then other things happen that remind you. I just like working and interacting with people
 
Erm, almost every segment of youth in the 100s of years before the 20th century had harder conditions to face than this one, and they didn't carry on like this. I think society is too soft on them if anything...they say they grow up too quick, but maybe it's in the wrong way, because even they 20 somethings still act like spoilt kids, waiting for the next handout to go and buy their next ounce of week and knock-off trainers. Kids up until recently had to take responsibility in a multitude of different ways from working, to caring for their elders, to helping harvest the crops. This is what needs to be instilled into them and if possible their parents too. There's plenty of work out there which isn't being done - why not send them out to help the victims of natural disasters and famines? Surely that would cost less than putting them in prison.
 
Erm, almost every segment of youth in the 100s of years before the 20th century had harder conditions to face than this one, and they didn't carry on like this. I think society is too soft on them if anything...they say they grow up too quick, but maybe it's in the wrong way, because even they 20 somethings still act like spoilt kids, waiting for the next handout to go and buy their next ounce of week and knock-off trainers. Kids up until recently had to take responsibility in a multitude of different ways from working, to caring for their elders, to helping harvest the crops. This is what needs to be instilled into them and if possible their parents too. There's plenty of work out there which isn't being done - why not send them out to help the victims of natural disasters and famines? Surely that would cost less than putting them in prison.

Yeah good luck with that. Just click your fingers and they'll become farmers, nurses and peace corps members.
 
riotle1.jpg
 
Hello, mate. :)

After the News of the World's exploits that we've all read about recently, nothing would surprise me.
 
Erm, almost every segment of youth in the 100s of years before the 20th century had harder conditions to face than this one, and they didn't carry on like this. I think society is too soft on them if anything...they say they grow up too quick, but maybe it's in the wrong way, because even they 20 somethings still act like spoilt kids, waiting for the next handout to go and buy their next ounce of week and knock-off trainers. Kids up until recently had to take responsibility in a multitude of different ways from working, to caring for their elders, to helping harvest the crops. This is what needs to be instilled into them and if possible their parents too. There's plenty of work out there which isn't being done - why not send them out to help the victims of natural disasters and famines? Surely that would cost less than putting them in prison.

Ermm, violent underprivileged youths have been scallying and causing big fights and rioting for hundreds of years as well. They were dumber than this lot, but they also faced truly horrendous punishments.
 
Excellent post by Alan_F at RAWK:


How can we just "move on"? We are sitting at a crossroads and need to decide which direction we want to go. "Moving on" at the moment will just take us further down the road we have been travelling since the experiments in social engineering of the Thatcher era that created the mess we are in now.

The problem we face (we being the bleeding-heart liberals who give a flying feck about everyone in society) is that the social engineering of the eighties was calculated and very effective. I started going through how and why they did the things they did but I've done it elsewhere and all that matters is where we are now.

The end result was to emasculate manufacturing industry and re-focus on service industries. Most importantly, there was a conscious calculation to ignore or discount anyone that "didn't matter" ie didn't or couldn't be persuaded to vote Conservative.

That was coupled with policies that were calculated to change people's relationship with society from one based on a combination of security, social, moral and economic factors to one based almost entirely on personal economic factors and security. Council house buying, personal share-ownership, privatisation of basic services, selling off pensions, etc. - all sold under the guise of empowerment and choice have instead created a voting population more likely to make selfish rather than 'social' decisions.

And it wasn't just manufacturing - the public service unions were treated in a slightly different way. They couldn't completely destroy public services (though many would have loved to) so they set about undermining and devaluing the people who worked in them - ambulance drivers were 'just professional drivers' according to Ken Clarke.

'Security' is one of the most insidious - create a nervousness about immigration and the 'other'. Not so much policy as propaganda. Mention the problem of immigration at every opportunity whether there's a problem or not. Of course, some of their best friends were and are black - David Cameron even met a black man in Plymouth during the election campaign - and they aren't bigots but... you know... 'they' are coming over here taking your jobs... if yote Tory we'll keep 'them' out. We won't say it openly but come on, you know where we stand... wink, wink...

And security isn't only about immigration, it's also about the 'other other' - the feckless poor, the underclass... As Peter Lilley (then Secretary of States for the Department of Social Security) sang to the Tory party conference in 1992:

I've got a little list
Of benefit offenders who I'll soon be rooting out
And who never would be missed
They never would be missed.

There's those who make up bogus claims
In half a dozen names
And councillors who draw the dole
To run left-wing campaigns
They never would be missed
They never would be missed.

Young ladies who get pregnant just to jump the housing queue
And dads who won't support the kids
of ladies they have ... kissed
And I haven't even mentioned all those sponging socialists
I've got them on my list
And there's none of them be missed
There's none of them be missed.


Oh how we laughed...

Make no mistake - the Tories despise the poor, the downtrodden and the feck-ups who can't make their way in the world. They are there to be demonised and to distract us from the real issues. No-one gives a feck about them and those that do are pinko bleeding-heart-liberals. If they can be used to turn a buck through Rackmanism, extortionate money-lending and the like then all's well and good but as long as they don't vote and stay in their place they can and will be ignored.

And let's not forget "choice" - the best trick the devil ever pulled was to give us all the "choice to..." instead of the "right to...". So instead of us all having the right to a decent school in our neighbourhood, we have the "choice" to send our kids to the school of our choice, except we don't do we. We have the ridiculous postcode dance where parents move house to try and get their kids into a decent school. We don't have the right to demand the government provides good schooling all. No it's our choices that allow schools to fail (and for the schools to be sold off to education conglomerates to be turned into Academies)... We can 'choose' the hospitals we go to. Sorry but if I'm sick I want the hospital that's closest to me to provide the same basic level of care that all the others do. No problem with their being centres of excellence but health should be a basic right.

But I forgot... "rights" are bad things... and "fundamental human rights" are the fecking worst. "Rights" just breed a "sense of entitlement" and "lack of ambition" they stop employers making excessive profits by paying shit wages, they cost us a few quid in taxes by paying for the basic welfare needs of the unemployed, the sick and disabled, they allow asylum seekers and Eastern Europeans to come over here and sponge off the state...

And so on, and so on...

And that's where we are.

They did their job well, you have to credit them for that. Dave's right, we do live in a Broken Britain and I know who broke it. It was broken so comprehensively that like Humpty-Dumpty, it could never be put back together again.

New Labour was about not associating blame and moving on. New Labour was about accepting that most of what the Tories had done was irreversible and trying to tack on as many social values that they could to the right-wing juggernaut that Maggie and her mates had created.

And now we have the Dave and Gideon show. Sorry but I have no interest in going in the direction that those two are going.

I've just read that Milliband has said he'll stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Cameron. Bollocks to that, Ed. You saw what happened when you took a moral stand on the NOTW story, or was it just opportunism?

If we stand any chance of altering course, of creating a society where the events of the last few days are less likely to happen again we need to stand up and say yes, I will make political capital out of the riots. Because Cameron sure as hell will. His e-petition big idea is about to make a mockery of social justice in this country.

"The petition entitled “Convicted London rioters should loose* all benefits” has now passed the threshold of 100,000 signatures and has been passed to the Backbench Business Committee to consider for debate. It will continue to be available for signature once the site is re-opened."

*I mean for feck's sake - the person who drafted it can't even fecking spell!

What does the Government do now? Say yes, 100,000 people have spoken in the heat of the riots so we have a duty to pass it into law? These are the people that are making the public running and setting the news agenda.

So I blame Thatcher and anyone who chooses to continue down the path she started us on 30 odd years ago. The first thing we need to do is stop and decide what kind of society we want to be. If we continue as we are I believe the future lies in no-go areas of our major cities and towns, gated communities for the well-off and the rest of us somewhere in between. I have no interest in a society like that.
 
Why am I surprised that these young people behave destructively, "mindlessly", motivated only by self-interest? How should we describe the actions of the city bankers who brought our economy to its knees in 2010? Altruistic? Mindful? Kind? But then again, they do wear suits, so they deserve to be bailed out, perhaps that's why not one of them has been imprisoned. And they got away with a lot more than a few fecking pairs of trainers.

UK riots: Big Brother isn't watching you | Russell Brand | The Guardian
 
I was watching the news with my wife last night. "It looks like the Kaiser Chiefs were right." I said.

"Yeah, very funny," she replied. "I Predict A Riot."

I said, "No... Everyday I Love You Less And Less."




(stolen from youtube)
 
A local jail has been told 3 times to clear places to get ready for the intake. So in go one lot of crims and out go another. Staff are being taken from around the estate to staff the jails earmarked to take them. Those Jails are currently 70% Officer 2's ( alot less pay, crap terms and conditions, staff turnover rate very high) I predict more trouble.
 
Don't they have this is prison no ? I'm not sure by the way, which is why I ask. I know in the U.S they have prisoners make things like number pates and zippos :)

I guess you'd have to get the right blend of prisoners. You wouldn't want to get some bloke throwing another inmate through a mincing machine etc

No, not in this country, it'd be a step in the right direction but what I'm advocating is using full time community service as an alternative to prison, the majority of these scallys and vast numbers of the current prison population don't need to be kept under an expensive lock and key. Enforced poverty, curfews and a 40 hour working week would be a far more cost/deterrent/rehabilitation effective punishment.
 
Don't they have this is prison no ? I'm not sure by the way, which is why I ask. I know in the U.S they have prisoners make things like number pates and zippos :)

I guess you'd have to get the right blend of prisoners. You wouldn't want to get some bloke throwing another inmate through a mincing machine etc

Actually in some prisons they do. They have workshops but they tend to make stuff for the prison estate. There are different types of prisons here. Locals, dispersals, High Security (holding the cat A's) Open prisons have a policy of rehabilitation and is seen as the last step before getting out. Sadly they also get flooded with short term prisoners who dont give a toss. They have gone away from discipline and cant even give a prisoner added days for offences on the inside. They have to get an outside judge, but they value the staff so low they hardly give out tough punishments. Prisoners have more rights than the staff.
So you can imagine how the staff feel.
 
No, not in this country, it'd be a step in the right direction but what I'm advocating is using full time community service as an alternative to prison, the majority of these scallys and vast numbers of the current prison population don't need to be kept under an expensive lock and key. Enforced poverty, curfews and a 40 hour working week would be a far more cost/deterrent/rehabilitation effective punishment.

This would be great but it needs efficient supervision. A prison local to me take 40% of prisoner earnings to give to victims of crime. They have just introduced it. You can imagine the reaction of the prisoners and it was not in a good way. Its all me me me with them I am afraid and really does mirror what we have seen in the last week. That said, the worst offenders I believe therapy helps. But they need to want to change. Britain has a Therapeutic Prison which is largely unheard of outside the prison estate, yet has an exceptional record when it comes to recidivism. It is expensive to run, but the benefits should outweigh that.
 
Kelvin Mackenzie said something similar on Newsnight the other night, while being made to look stupid by a rapper and a student. My basic rule is that anyone who ever advocates not trying to understand anything is wrong.

Not even the female mind?

I gave up on that, in certain circumstances at least, a long time ago.
 
The 68 year old man who was attacked while trying to put out a fire has died. feck I hope they catch the scumbag and jail him for life.
 
The 68 year old man who was attacked while trying to put out a fire has died. feck I hope they catch the scumbag and jail him for life.

fecking hell thats awful :( RIP.

They better catch those fecking cnuts who attacked him.
 
From Ealing, my area as well. He's the guy lying on the ground at 2:08 in this video.



I hope the thugs responsible are caught and punished severely.


Saw that vid day after the riot.

What pisses me off about it, 3:21-3:24. Such a punchable face. Im sure id know someone who'd know this twat. Hopefully police are knocking/breaking down his door.
 
Something has gone horribly wrong in Britain. If we are ever to confront the problems which have been exposed in the past week, it is essential to bear in mind that they do not only exist in inner-city housing estates. The culture of greed and impunity we are witnessing on our TV screens stretches right up into corporate boardrooms and the Cabinet. It embraces the police and large parts of our media. It is not just its damaged youth, but Britain itself that needs a moral reformation.

The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom – Telegraph
 
Black people are 26 times more likely than whites to face stop and search | UK news | The Observer

Not like we didnt know tbh. Thought this would be an appropriate thread to stick this in.

That goes for alot of western countries though and I can attest to it personally though i'm an upstanding upper middle class citizen with the right connections. But it doesn't count as an excuse. It's just a bunch of f'n ahole kids with no prospects, future or real community.

At the end of the day we're all to blame coddling kids so much. Telling them it's ok to not have to work hard or they're not capable and have the latest fad disorder. And then we look down on them telling them they're nothing and treating them like it and don't expect it to bite us in the a$$.
 
Same story tonight, good few groups around but no major chaos, however sadly there has been a few hoax calls resulting in crews being ambused by groups and assaulted, both police and ambulance getting them at the moment
 
Do UK have riot units? I saw normal officers without the riot gear. Anyway they should hit the criminals hard and plastic/rubber bullets should be used on any situation of disorder (not sure why they don't use that in UK since English football fans are used ...when they go to games in Europe :lol: )
 

London

Now that I am finished work I almost forgot to say what quote of the week was from one of the crews, it was relating to the huge fire in Croydon one of the crews was driving past as it erupted into a fireball

Crew: "LFB needed huge fire in Croydon, multiple LFB required and when the backup crew arrives I need to return to base for dirty uniform change"

Me: "roger, em say again dirty uniform change?"

Crew: "yeah roger that I just shit myself a bit as I was driving past that, it erupted into a fireball and was centimetres from the car"

He said at the end of the night that driving through Croydon in the morning was like driving through war zone Iraq, was a total ruin
 
SkyNewsBreak Sky News Newsdesk
22-year-old man arrested on suspicion of the murder of 68-year-old Richard Mannington Bowes, who was assaulted in Ealing on Monday

Good stuff. Unfortunately he'll only get manslaughter.