Arsenals chances of a top 4 finish this season

peterstorey said:
Defending wasn't bad considering we had one fit CB.
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I struggle the think of worse defence since the start of the season. Maybe only Bolton come to mind. You've conceded 16 and like yesterday could've been more if not for Szczesny. Your defence is all over the place and shambolic in some cases like when Bale missed a sitter in the end. No communication, no organization, nothing...

I struggle to think of worse Arsenal defence...

As for the topic - Slim. Already Arse are out of the race for the title and it's only 7 matches played...
 
Feed Me said:
It all comes down to intent. It's clear as day that VdV has tried to control that ball, legally, on his chest
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:lol: Fkme when people will see what they want to see there are no boundaries are there!?

It's as clear as day that had he not controlled the ball with his arm just above the elbow, as replays clearly show, the ball would have gone way beyond him.

Obvious all very quick but he's automatically used that arm to bring the ball under control it to drop it dead, down into a shooting position.

What bit of that are you missing ?

Are you suggesting he managed to entwine his upper body NOT his arm to get behind the ball to control it? Did he do a back flip onto his hands spin his body around and control it with the back of his head whilst doing a handstand?

No, he had no time to get his chest behind the ball and chest it or kill it. He simply, as it clearly showed, raised his arm to get behind the flight of the ball and use that to 'kill' the pace

Why do you suggest that is not what happened when it's a million percent clear as the nose on your face that it IS what he did?

Fskes

In defence of the ref it was all very quick and him seeing it, was never gonna get it right. Lino? who knows what the fk he saw

To be frank it didnt lose us the game anyway, not taking easy gift chances and Scez fking up lost us the game which is our fault anyways but VdV handballed that without a shadow of a doubt
 
Enigma_87 said:
I struggle the think of worse defence since the start of the season. Maybe only Bolton come to mind. You've conceded 16 and like yesterday could've been more if not for Szczesny. Your defence is all over the place and shambolic in some cases like when Bale missed a sitter in the end. No communication, no organization, nothing...

I struggle to think of worse Arsenal defence...

As for the topic - Slim. Already Arse are out of the race for the title and it's only 7 matches played...
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Defence ? well I'm getting lost for words with Wenger these days-
Defence - It is'nt one

I think the Black Horse over the road from me would stick one in against our defence - utterly abysmal
 
I don't know what all the fuss is about regarding the VdV goal - great take and accomplished finish. The lino was miles away from VdV with Gooner players around him, not only obstructing the refs' own view but the linesman's as well.

IMHO - having watched numerous replays on Sky TV yesterday, it was inconclusive as to whether it was arm/shoulder - shoulder/breast - breast/arm - the ref gets one view.

Only when the pundits started claiming the subsequent direction of the ball meant it must have been arm, in their opinion, did that become the overriding conclusion of the event. So what chance did the ref have ?

And we would have all taken that goal for our own team wouldn't we ?

Arsene, somtimes life sucks, contentious decisons with very little in them go FOR and AGAINST all teams........ I don't recall Arsene moaning about the Pires dive all those seasons ago...... GET OVER IT.....the Gooners lost because their defence is indefencable.

Move on.......Go Fourth ????? doubt it this season.
 
Feed Me said:
For what it's worth, here's my opinion. It took God knows how many replays and it still wasn't cut and dried. In that context, I can understand the officials not giving handball - at full speed, I don't think the officials have done much wrong.

It all comes down to intent. It's clear as day that VdV has tried to control that ball, legally, on his chest. As a result, even if the ball has hit his arm, the most he should get is a disallowed goal - a second yellow would be absurd given that there's no intent. I think the rules that Pete has posted previously are very clear on that point.

If we're going by the laws of the game, then VdV should be given the second booking for going into the crowd. That would still be harsh though because refs up and down the country don't uniformly apply this - see Vidic getting away with one against Villa last season. In any case, the law is an ass in this regard.
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Agreed; every time a player goes into the crowd, even if they are against us I hope the refs don't book them. It's a farcical rule that punishes players for not being robots.
 
misterredmist said:
I don't know what all the fuss is about regarding the VdV goal - great take and accomplished finish.
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Dont you ?

Ball controlled with the arm and accomplished finish

Not saying the ref could give something he did not see but it is what it is
handball

Had that been against Utd there'd be five fking threads about it - 2 for how big a cheat Vdv is and 3 planning how to lynch the ref

As I said it did not lose us the game but it was handball - its not even debateable
 
Jopub said:
Dont you ?

Ball controlled with the arm and accomplished finish

Not saying the ref could give something he did not see but it is what it is
handball

Had that been against Utd there'd be five fking threads about it - 2 for how big a cheat Vdv is and 3 planning how to lynch the ref

As I said it did not lose us the game but it was handball - its not even debateable
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A cheat:? Hardly. It's not as though he "did an Adebayor" (when he was at Arsenal) and punched the ball into the net.

When you jump to try and bring a ball down on your chest, it's a natural movement to bring your arms up like that. If the ball did hit his upper arm (and it looks like it did) then it was clearly unintentional.

In fact, on that basis, you could argue that the ref made the right call. Hand-ball needs to be deliberate to be penalised. But yes, if the same thing happened against United we'd definitely be annoyed.
 
Its Arsenal vs Liverpool vs Spurs for 4th place.

Arsenal will choke against the bigger teams, as usual. Liverpool looks strong but they rely too much on Suarez. Spurs looked very average against us and City but the are a very good side on their day and do not have distraction from CL when compared to Arsenal.

I think Spurs to finish 4th, Arsenal 5th and Liverpool 6th.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
A cheat:? Hardly. It's not as though he "did an Adebayor" (when he was at Arsenal) and punched the ball into the net.

When you jump to try and bring a ball down on your chest, it's a natural movement to bring your arms up like that. If the ball did hit his upper arm (and it looks like it did) then it was clearly unintentional.

In fact, on that basis, you could argue that the ref made the right call. Hand-ball needs to be deliberate to be penalised. But yes, if the same thing happened against United we'd definitely be annoyed.
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That massively goes against the spirit of the rule. If you start going down the road of questioning whether or not the player was aware of what he was doing, or whether it was just an instinctive thing, then it's hard to know where to stop. If a defender goes to clear the ball, a striker instinctively reaches up to block his face and the ball rebounds into the net it would be incredibly harsh to give a goal, despite the fact he never intended to handle the ball, much less score from it.
 
Brophs said:
That massively goes against the spirit of the rule. If you start going down the road of questioning whether or not the player was aware of what he was doing, or whether it was just an instinctive thing, then it's hard to know where to stop. If a defender goes to clear the ball, a striker instinctively reaches up to block his face and the ball rebounds into the net it would be incredibly harsh to give a goal, despite the fact he never intended to handle the ball, much less score from it.
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Totally agree.

I actually think the law is an ass when it comes to hand-ball. It's absurd to expect a referee to be 100% confident about intent when it comes to these sort of decisions. That's what the laws of the game demand though.

I've thought for a while that the best way to sort out this issue is to give a free-kick whenever the ball hits an arm, irrespective of intent. You my get some unlucky decisions but at least you'd instantly remove all the ambiguity and it's the ambiguity that annoys most of all.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
A cheat:? Hardly. It's not as though he "did an Adebayor" (when he was at Arsenal) and punched the ball into the net.

When you jump to try and bring a ball down on your chest, it's a natural movement to bring your arms up like that. If the ball did hit his upper arm (and it looks like it did) then it was clearly unintentional.

In fact, on that basis, you could argue that the ref made the right call. Hand-ball needs to be deliberate to be penalised. But yes, if the same thing happened against United we'd definitely be annoyed.
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Im not saying he is a cheat. Its what I think this forum would make threads about if it was you lot on the end of it

Of course he intended to chest it down and smack it away but fact is fact is, being unable to do that as the ball was fast and a fraction too high for him, he controlled it with his arm just above the elbow - the cameras prove it - it's not arguable
 
is there a gif on that VDV goal? I saw the game and a few replays but to me it looked like he didn't use use his hands at all. I'm sure Sky broke it down into super slow motion but I didn't zee that.
 
peterstorey said:
We've only played six games and we've had Gervinho denied a pen twice and sent off, Frimpong booked for feck all and sent off, Suarez offside goal, Yakubu offside goal, VdV handball goal. Quite enough to be going on with I'd say.
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Arsenal's poor run of results in the league has been going on for a while now ... stretching well back into last season. But it seems you want to blame it mostly on bad luck and injustice.

Why don't you just admit that Arsenal are in decline and have been in decline for some while now?

Top 4? Keep going at this rate and you'll be lucky to finish in the top 8.
 
utdalltheway said:
is there a gif on that VDV goal? I saw the game and a few replays but to me it looked like he didn't use use his hands at all. I'm sure Sky broke it down into super slow motion but I didn't zee that.
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Tottenham vs Arsenal 2-1 Highlight 02/10/11 - YouTube

3.57 and 4.05

They are not even stills, but it cant be clearer.

In fact before those at 3.14 if you look at it in real time when it happens from the high above camera you can see the ball would go beyond him if he does'nt use the arm
 
Jopub said:
Tottenham vs Arsenal 2-1 Highlight 02/10/11 - YouTube

3.57 and 4.05

They are not even stills, but it cant be clearer.

In fact before those at 3.14 if you look at it in real time when it happens from the high above camera you can see the ball would go beyond him if he does'nt use the arm
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I really can't see how Mike Dean can have any excuse at all considering he was levitating 20ft in the air above the incident at the time. Clear as day.
 
Jopub said:
:lol: Fkme when people will see what they want to see there are no boundaries are there!?

It's as clear as day that had he not controlled the ball with his arm just above the elbow, as replays clearly show, the ball would have gone way beyond him.

Obvious all very quick but he's automatically used that arm to bring the ball under control it to drop it dead, down into a shooting position.

What bit of that are you missing ?

Are you suggesting he managed to entwine his upper body NOT his arm to get behind the ball to control it? Did he do a back flip onto his hands spin his body around and control it with the back of his head whilst doing a handstand?

No, he had no time to get his chest behind the ball and chest it or kill it. He simply, as it clearly showed, raised his arm to get behind the flight of the ball and use that to 'kill' the pace

Why do you suggest that is not what happened when it's a million percent clear as the nose on your face that it IS what he did?

Fskes

In defence of the ref it was all very quick and him seeing it, was never gonna get it right. Lino? who knows what the fk he saw

To be frank it didnt lose us the game anyway, not taking easy gift chances and Scez fking up lost us the game which is our fault anyways but VdV handballed that without a shadow of a doubt
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I don't think, at real speed, it was so easy to say whether he's controlled with his chest/shoulder/arm. In that context, I can understand why the officials didn't disallow it.

I have also admitted that VdV may well have handled the ball, but it was in no way intentional. Not in a Maradona vs England or Scholes vs Zenit sort of way. His intention when that ball came across was to control on his chest.

Fact is, that arm was out there for balance - the ball may have unintentionally struck the arm, but VdV has intended to control the ball, not handle it.

As a result, it would be ridiculous to give him a second booking.
 
utdalltheway said:
it still seems to me that he controlled the ball high on his chest near his shoulder.
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First time I saw it i though it was his chest. Then other times it looks like chest/upper arm. Probably should have been given as a hand ball but that's my opinion from slo mo's and 6 different angles.

As for top four finish? Arsenal have turned in 2-1 big joke at the moment but I'd 8-2 make a judgement this soon into the season so I'll give it another 4-3 weeks.
 
Just read that Sagna is out for 3 months.
Who is their backup? Jenkinson?
 
form curve in the league since they lost the league cup final:

DDDWDDWDDLWLLDDLLWLWL

21 games, 24 points. Should be good enough to avoid relegation if they keep it up, but that's still definite bottom half form.
 
Lee Dixon is one of the most sensible pundits around.

If he thinks it's that bad, it's bad.
 
I reckon our top 4 chances are entirely dependent on how close we do until Christmas, and if we invest in January. If we can keep to within 6-8 points, and then buy some proper quality players, we'll have a chance.
 
alastair said:
I reckon our top 4 chances are entirely dependent on how close we do until Christmas, and if we invest in January. If we can keep to within 6-8 points, and then buy some proper quality players, we'll have a chance.
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Still have to agree on this. I keep wanting to count Arsenal out because I genuinely think Liverpool and Tottenham are better, but it'll take a little longer before I give them no chance. Arsenal are currently 6 points behind Liverpool and 5 behind Spurs (who have a game in hand against Everton at White Hart Lane). If they're still that far off by Christmas they'll have done well to keep in touch and still have a chance (that'd probably have them in 6th as well, but I'm not sure if they will do that with quite a few players out, it'd be tough even with them back).

January is massive for Arsenal.
 
Any claim that Arsenal still have a chance of the Top 4 is rooted in a respect for the club they have been in the past. If you look at their form and the actual ability of their playing staff, you'd have to say they have no chance.

Top 6 will be a push given that United, City and Chelsea look dead certs, while you'd have to fancy Spurs and Liverpool to be in there. That leaves one space, and there's other teams vying for it who display a basic level of defensive competency that Arsenal currently don't.
 
alastair said:
I reckon our top 4 chances are entirely dependent on how close we do until Christmas, and if we invest in January. If we can keep to within 6-8 points, and then buy some proper quality players, we'll have a chance.
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Thing is you have had the time to try and buy quality players for the last couple of seasons but wenger has refused to do so, his panic'ish buying at the end of the transfer window was a bit of a joke. I know we don't know all the reasons and it may be down to the club not releasing funds but the buck stops with the manager and it aint looking rosy at the minute
 
"I felt on Sunday that defensively we are becoming stronger," said Wenger. "But we lost the ball from good positions in the final third so we could have done better with our passing.


Holy, moly


The man is fking demented, he really is
 
Jopub said:
Its what I think this forum would make threads about if it was you lot on the end of it
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I'm getting fecking sick of you fans of other teams saying stupid shite like this.

We are all football fans at the end of the day and we all broadly think the same when it comes to our own teams, get over it.


alastair said:
This season? We haven't played a full strength team since about 2007.
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You haven't actually had a team since before then.


Arsene really has done a job on you lot hasn't he? Great manager when things go well, but the whinging and bad losing mentality runs deep. It's actually such a shame he's lost the plot too, because his and his team's battles with SAF and his both on and off the pitch were such entertainment and are now sadly lost in these days of sugar daddies and fake animosity :(
 
That was too obvious for him not to concede any chance of a title challenge really. You can normally lose 5-6 games and still have a chance at it, Arsenal have already lost 4 with 31 games left to play and they'll lose another game by the end of October.
 
Will Wenger get the sack if they dont finish 4th is the real question here
 
charlenefan said:
Will Wenger get the sack if they dont finish 4th is the real question here
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Of course he won't! The money has been made for this and next season, plus it'd be suicide for the board with the fans.

They might pray he'd quit if it happens a few seasons on the trot, but for right now I don't think they'll even contemplate it.
 
I find it comical Arsenal fans complaining of a goal considering all the gifted goals their club have received over the years (Adebayor punch, Henry offside vs United, et al).
 
Redlambs said:
Of course he won't! The money has been made for this and next season, plus it'd be suicide for the board with the fans.

They might pray he'd quit if it happens a few seasons on the trot, but for right now I don't think they'll even contemplate it.
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You don't think Arsenal losing 30 million in Champions League money could get Arsene the sack?
 
rcoobc said:
You don't think Arsenal losing 30 million in Champions League money could get Arsene the sack?
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They've gained more from Fabregash and nasri.

Besides, who are they going to bring in? What about his payoff? Any new manager will also need new funds to change the squad. That's more money possibly down the drain, and could leave them to even more trouble. That 30m will easily become chicken feed overnight.

Wenger will at least see them into Europe in some form, without a big outlay.
 
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