Newcastle fleece Liverpool for Carroll

KM said:
Bit rich of RedRover to accuse United fans of bias when he himself admitted in the other thread that he will be always try to talk up the north eastern players.
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Perhaps you misunderstand. My opinions come from actually bothering to watch various players before I have an opinion, whereas some others on here see a player once or twice before deciding they're rubbish or the best thing since sliced bread. Hence why I don't write off or champion young players at United before I've seen them play a few games.

I take an interest in players from the North East and try to watch as much as I can.

Seems I'm also accused of being overly critical of United players. Perhaps I just expect too much - I largely don't care how well any player fares who's not playing for United (other than obviously liking to see english players develop for the national side). I do care how United players perform and perhaps hold them to a higher standard.
 
RedRover said:
whereas some others on here see a player once or twice before deciding they're rubbish.
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Hell, you've discovered the secret of my award-losing football posts! :(
 
RedRover said:
Perhaps not, but nobody has to agree. I'm not, nor was I seeking to force my opinions on anyone else. I watched a fair bit of the lad, liked what I saw and had my opinion on here.

On form - he arguably was.

Seems it offends people although I'm not sure why.
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that you call 'on form' (i am assuming that this is the short period of time when Andy Carroll seemed to excite everyone) while at the same time you still doubt Welbeck's potential (having watched him as an United fan from at least the 2008-09 season in the first team)
 
sajeev said:
that you call 'on form' (i am assuming that this is the short period of time when Andy Carroll seemed to excite everyone) while at the same time you still doubt Welbeck's potential (having watched him as an United fan from at least the 2008-09 season in the first team)
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Put simply - yes.

I was impressed by Andy Carroll at Newcastle - a big physical player which you don't see a lot of in the PL anymore, despite having serious doubts about whether he could step up from the Championship.

I didn't suggest United should go out and get him, just that I thought he'd do well at Liverpool. Clearly the jury is still out in that regard.

Welbeck did well for Sunderland but him coming back to United and dislodging either Rooney or Hernandez is a totally different scenario, even in terms of moving to a club like Liverpool. To get in United's first team and thrive under the pressure which comes with it is much more difficult.

I doubted, and still doubt whether long term, Welbeck will develop into a player with enough ability to be a regular "first name on the team sheet" type ahead of other often top class players, although, as I've said on numerous occaisions he deserves his cnance and will no doubt get plenty of games this season to show his worth.
 
RedRover said:
Seems it offends people although I'm not sure why.
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Calling anyone who doesn't agree with you on the Man City ownership issue hypocrites, anyone who doesn't agree with you about our young players naive/misguided and anyone who doesn't agree with you about opposition players as blinkered doesn't help. Blanket derogatory statements aren't often considered endearing, and yet you play the 'well I don't know what I've done wrong, I'm just expressing my objective, reasoned and logical view'. Well yes, you are, but then these statements often go against the grain which you're surely aware of, and then when various people react to controversial viewpoints you generally reply with the 'you're biased, I'm objective card'. Basically.
 
Brwned said:
Calling anyone who doesn't agree with you on the Man City ownership issue hypocrites, anyone who doesn't agree with you about our young players naive/misguided and anyone who doesn't agree with you about opposition players as blinkered doesn't help. Blanket derogatory statements aren't often considered endearing, and yet you play the 'well I don't know what I've done wrong, I'm just expressing my objective, reasoned and logical view'. Well yes, you are, but then these statements often go against the grain which you're surely aware of, and then when various people react to controversial viewpoints you generally reply with the 'you're biased, I'm objective card'. Basically.
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Any "blanket deogetory statements" tend to be in response to often sustained questioning by various individuals who seem incredulous that I don't agree with what they have to say. In response I generally think I state my opinion for the purposes of simply having the debate. And I'd like to think I'm fairly curteous to people.

Having had what I thought were fairly rational opinions on Man City's spending I was accused of "trying to wind people up" despite the fact that a couple of people seemed to have similar opinions to me.

In that particular thread the fact that I didn't think Man City had completely ruined football lead to me having to justify that at every turn.

In terms of this thread I'm bound to come on and defend myself - especially when people have stated that I said things that I clearly hadn't.
 
Brwned said:
Calling anyone who doesn't agree with you on the Man City ownership issue hypocrites, anyone who doesn't agree with you about our young players naive/misguided and anyone who doesn't agree with you about opposition players as blinkered doesn't help. Blanket derogatory statements aren't often considered endearing, and yet you play the 'well I don't know what I've done wrong, I'm just expressing my objective, reasoned and logical view'. Well yes, you are, but then these statements often go against the grain which you're surely aware of, and then when various people react to controversial viewpoints you generally reply with the 'you're biased, I'm objective card'. Basically.
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Basically he's a bit of a tool.
 
RedRover said:
Put simply - yes.

I was impressed by Andy Carroll at Newcastle - a big physical player which you don't see a lot of in the PL anymore, despite having serious doubts about whether he could step up from the Championship.

I didn't suggest United should go out and get him, just that I thought he'd do well at Liverpool. Clearly the jury is still out in that regard.

Welbeck did well for Sunderland but him coming back to United and dislodging either Rooney or Hernandez is a totally different scenario, even in terms of moving to a club like Liverpool. To get in United's first team and thrive under the pressure which comes with it is much more difficult.

I doubted, and still doubt whether long term, Welbeck will develop into a player with enough ability to be a regular "first name on the team sheet" type ahead of other often top class players, although, as I've said on numerous occaisions he deserves his cnance and will no doubt get plenty of games this season to show his worth.
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So in your opinion Andy Carroll was the best young striker and yet Welbeck is still a long-term doubt, despite being picked by Fergie as one to have a long career at Old Trafford before the 2007 youth cup final.

while this might be your valid opinion, it shouldn't surprise that you get called out a lot. this dichotomy is the reason why you are viewed as a WUM. each of those opinions, by themselves are fine, but when looked at in combination taking into consideration that you are an United fan, it doesn't look right.

Anyways, Liverpool spent 35 mill on Andy Carroll. Is still pretty funny :lol::lol:
For a while this season, it looked that Leon Best might convince them too :D
 
Andy fecking Carroll. Where's the talent, really? Big and strong seem to be his greatest assets rather than anything connected to footballing ability. What am I missing?
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Andy fecking Carroll. Where's the talent, really? Big and strong seem to be his greatest assets rather than anything connected to footballing ability. What am I missing?
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What are his stats so far at Liverpool? (number of arrests, average number of pints per week, domestics etc)
 
sajeev said:
So in your opinion Andy Carroll was the best young striker and yet Welbeck is still a long-term doubt, despite being picked by Fergie as one to have a long career at Old Trafford before the 2007 youth cup final.

while this might be your valid opinion, it shouldn't surprise that you get called out a lot. this dichotomy is the reason why you are viewed as a WUM. each of those opinions, by themselves are fine, but when looked at in combination taking into consideration that you are an United fan, it doesn't look right.

Anyways, Liverpool spent 35 mill on Andy Carroll. Is still pretty funny :lol::lol:
For a while this season, it looked that Leon Best might convince them too :D
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I don't agree - my opinion on a player succesfully plying is trade at a lower club was that he was a good player with a lot of potential - its not the same thing as saying that he'd be a regular at United up against the top class forwards we have.

You seem to suggest that simply because Welbeck plays for United that should affect my opinion of him and his potential. I personally don't think it should and simply speak as I find.
 
RedRover said:
I don't agree - my opinion on a player succesfully plying is trade at a lower club was that he was a good player with a lot of potential - its not the same thing as saying that he'd be a regular at United up against the top class forwards we have.

You seem to suggest that simply because Welbeck plays for United that should affect my opinion of him and his potential. I personally don't think it should and simply speak as I find.
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i haven't suggested that Welbeck playing for United should bias your opinion of him. But taking into consideration, your views on Carroll, the views don't compute.
 
sajeev said:
i haven't suggested that Welbeck playing for United should bias your opinion of him. But taking into consideration, your views on Carroll, the views don't compute.
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If that's your opinion then fair enough.

To me they're different players, of differing types and abilities so I'm not comparing the two. You were the one keen to drag up quotes from another thread about a different player in relation to my opinion of Andy Carroll.

My opinion on Danny Welbeck was that he did well at Sunderland but had he not been a United player I wouldnt have been clamouring for the club to sign him based on the performances he'd put in, largely because I doubted whether he'd ever be good enough to displace others we already have. That's not to say I don't think he's a good player nor do I think he shouldnt get his chance to impress.

My opinions on Carroll were formed having watched him for Newcastle and therefore thought he'd do well in a better side, having the potential to really kick on under the right circumstances. I might not be right about that it was an honest opinion.
 
Carroll moved (or was pushed to move) too soon.He was barely discovering the PL with Newcastle but the media hype machine went overdrive regarding him.Despite being strong and good in the air, I honestly don't see any other aspect of his game that warranted such hype.
Welbeck is promising but he still has a long way to go before transforming into the top player his potential can allow to go.He has the technique, pace, linking up, finishing but he is still young therefore inconsistent.It's hard to stay 100% bias free but I don't understand how Welbeck's potential can be put into doubt.He might or might not fullfil it but the signs are there
 
kouroux said:
Carroll moved (or was pushed to move) too soon.He was barely discovering the PL with Newcastle but the media hype machine went overdrive regarding him.Despite being strong and good in the air, I honestly don't see any other aspect of his game that warranted such hype.
Welbeck is promising but he still has a long way to go before transforming into the top player his potential can allow to go.He has the technique, pace, linking up, finishing but he is still young therefore inconsistent.It's hard to stay 100% bias free but I don't understand how Welbeck's potential can be put into doubt.He might or might not fullfil it but the signs are there
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Yeah, agree with all of that. You could actually argue that Welbeck has yet to hit a patch of sustained form as good as Carroll did for Newcastle last season. In terms of ability and potential, though, they're absolutely streets apart. Danny is a fantastically talented footballer who is only starting to put it all together while Carroll is just a very limited footballer who is sometimes effective because of his size and athleticism.

Carroll is just the latest in a long line of big, athletic, young English strikers whose limited technical ability means they will never come close to justifying the hype around them at a young age (e.g. Carlton Cole, Shola Ameobi, Neil Mellor etc.) while Welbeck has a chance of becoming a really top top player. This much has been obvious for years.
 
I'd understand getting giddy over technical players but a big lump of a forward like Carroll ? What's exciting about that sort of footballer ?
 
kouroux said:
I'd understand getting giddy over technical players but a big lump of a forward like Carroll ? What's exciting about that sort of footballer ?
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That's basically what I said when he first broke through. I used to always say to my mates how shit he was and how he'd never make it at the top level. Even in the Championship I spent most of the season moaning about his lack of mobility, workrate, skill, technique and pace.

Got to be said though, those 18 games he played for us last season he was a colossus. I can see why the hype built up. Strong, powerful, held up the ball, good feet, a turn of pace, a nightmare to defend in the air, scored different types of goals too. He was genuinely a completely different player to the one I watched in the Championship. His performances against Villa and Sunderland were as good of an allround centre forward performances I've seen in a Newcastle shirt.



I don't know what's happened to him. Unfit? Doesn't give a shit about Liverpool? was just a purple patch? not being used right? feck knows, maybe a combination of a few things but he certainly seems to have reverted to the player I used to berate permanently.
 
He really should have stayed.For a player like who was discovering the PL and was in good form, changing clubs so quickly was a big mistake.Mike Ashley saw an opportunity, he can't be blamed though.
 
It's true. The whole transfer just seems wrong really.

Carroll doesn't seem to care about Liverpool from what I've been told and can't settle there. He still spends most of his time up here and even bought a new house recently.

So Liverpool are left with a player devoid of his best attribute, his local pride. Carroll is a misfit who can't settle and is now burdened with the expectation of being Britain's most expensive player ever. We're left without our local hero and we didn't even get to spend the money properly.

In all honesty I wouldn't take him back even at a knockdown price. The best bit about him playing for us was the romantacism of it all. Sure, he was one-dimensional and uncultured but he was a local lad who had came through the system and earned his stripes in the Championship. Buying him back would be just like buying any other player now as far as I'm concerned. And in that case I reckon we could get far better value for money. Heck we got probably a better striker for nowt in the summer.
 
kouroux said:
He really should have stayed.For a player like who was discovering the PL and was in good form, changing clubs so quickly was a big mistake.Mike Ashley saw an opportunity, he can't be blamed though.
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Agree with that - an opportunity not to be missed.

Bit of a shame really. From what you hear up here he didn't really want the move at first, just trying to better his contract position but was badly advised and backed himself into a corner.

I suspect had he stayed his form may have been a bit better, although he was injured before he went and never seems to have gotten himself fit.

He needs to knuckle down - moving away from Newcastle could be a blessing in that regard but only if he can get himself right.
 
It's hilarious that Liverpool have to rely on pin-point crosses that land directly on Carroll's head 6 yards out in order for him to be of any use whatsoever.
 
maybe but it wouldn't change the fact that they have to completely alter the whole team's play in order to accommodate him
 
I love the fact that people in this thread were laughing when 23million was the mooted price. How anyone sanctioned that transfer I will never know.
 
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