Yes, we can. If he doesn't want it he can go.
Paul Pogba
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Yes, we can. If he doesn't want it he can go.
If he has any sense he will see what we've done with our young players in the past and lately too, and how good they've become. We're a club that reward the youngsters when they do make the big step, and offer them much better contracts then. It's always been a policy here.
Didn't Smalling's wages pretty much double after his great 1st season or something?
Didn't Smalling's wages pretty much double after his great 1st season or something?
He's probably the most lauded prospect here who's closer to the first team than any other young 'un and if he continues to progress, he'll get his spot.
Actually, staying here makes more sense for him because he's competing for a spot on the pitch where we are the weakest right now. God bless the likes of Fornasier, Vermijl et al who still want to fight for a place even though our defense looks sorted for the next few years or so.
Hernandez's wages tripled or quadrupled after the first season, too.
I see both points of view, the lad believes he has the ability to earn this money being reported elsewhere and probably play more.
From SAF's point of view he wants the lad to be patient and accept his time will eventually come, just not right now. I agree with this as it is how we have blooded most youngsters, but at the beginning of the season SAF said we need to have him involved and be playing or he will want to leave. That time has now come, he has made the odd appearance here and there but has not been given chance to cement a spot.
I am not saying he should play against spurs or teams of that ilk, but surely earlier on in the season where we got so desperate that we had to pair Rooney and Park in the centre of midfield - he could of been given some game time- being the only natural central midfielder we had fit?
Imagine how this felt? That a winger and a forward were prefered to you in the midfield against one of the weaker sides we are likely to face all season (if i remember it was Otelum and Norwich they played in)? I know it is not down to him to make the team selection but i can imagine his point of view. Park never has never will be a central midfielder, he is no more a central midfielder than Johnny Evans is a centre forward.
I am hopeful we can reach an agreement, and i fully have faith in the manager and his team selections 99.9% of the time, but he does get it wrong at times- and it was the manager who said in summer that we have this promising crop of youngsters coming through and he was happy with what we have at the club. Barring the carling cup this has not been proven, and although young in age i do not see the smallings, da silva's and evan's in this bracket becuase they have all had plenty of first team experience before.
Just my point of view, some may agree with some of it, may disagree with some of it, may agree with all of it or disagree with all of it, i just think it will be a crying shame to see another potentially class player from our youth ranks leave.
From SAF's point of view he wants the lad to be patient and accept his time will eventually come, just not right now. I agree with this as it is how we have blooded most youngsters, but at the beginning of the season SAF said we need to have him involved and be playing or he will want to leave. That time has now come, he has made the odd appearance here and there but has not been given chance to cement a spot.
I am not saying he should play against spurs or teams of that ilk, but surely earlier on in the season where we got so desperate that we had to pair Rooney and Park in the centre of midfield - he could of been given some game time- being the only natural central midfielder we had fit?
Imagine how this felt? That a winger and a forward were prefered to you in the midfield against one of the weaker sides we are likely to face all season (if i remember it was Otelum and Norwich they played in)? I know it is not down to him to make the team selection but i can imagine his point of view. Park never has never will be a central midfielder, he is no more a central midfielder than Johnny Evans is a centre forward.
I am hopeful we can reach an agreement, and i fully have faith in the manager and his team selections 99.9% of the time, but he does get it wrong at times- and it was the manager who said in summer that we have this promising crop of youngsters coming through and he was happy with what we have at the club. Barring the carling cup this has not been proven, and although young in age i do not see the smallings, da silva's and evan's in this bracket becuase they have all had plenty of first team experience before.
Just my point of view, some may agree with some of it, may disagree with some of it, may agree with all of it or disagree with all of it, i just think it will be a crying shame to see another potentially class player from our youth ranks leave.
If he wants to leave, then he should leave. In the end, nobody can force him to remain at United. We want players who genuinely wish to stay.
All I would say in sympathy is that I was surprised he wasn't even on the subs' bench against Ajax - surely he would done a better job than the headless chicken Park???
All I would say in sympathy is that I was surprised he wasn't even on the subs' bench against Ajax - surely he would done a better job than the headless chicken Park???
Yes - for both Smalling and Hernandez.
Smalling's apparently doubled from £25k to £50k a week according to the Sun (Not much different to the price we've apparently offered Pogba and what he can earn at Juventus - and Smalling already had more appearances under his belt). Figures for Hernandez's new wages range from £50-75k.
And then there's also Nani who is supposed to have a pay rise soon.
That's true too.
We reward our players when they perform for us, it's a great policy.
If a player wants a big increase despite not playing many games or proving themselves then they can feck off
I expect to see Welbeck get a pay rise at the end of the season too.
I've said it before and I'll say it again……I can understand Pogba wanting a bit more money.
At the age of 19 rooney, ronaldo, anderson, jones, rafael, fabio, evens, de gea, macheda and nani and smalling a little older where all on substantially more than what pogba is being offered. Granted, some if not all of those players had "proven" themselves in the first team.
Average / Poor premiership footbalers are on in excess of £50k per week these days. So a red hot highley thought of prospect could argue that he is worth £40k per week.
I am also pretty sure that he hasn’t been given game time not because he isnt ready but because we want to use "you have'nt even played" line in negotiations. Which I also think was the plan with Tevez in his final 6 months. Had we played him he'd have scored shedload and the transfer / salary would go through the roof and also alert other top clubs.
I would guess that pogba is gauging himself in training against the likes of cleverley, jones, da silvas etc etc and thinking he is first team qaulity and that if given the chance he would prove that.
The other rediculous thing in tis saga is lets say the fugures are accurate and we have offered him £20k per week. He signs a 5 year deal on £20k per week. He goes on the pre-season tour and impressess. He gets his chance in first team and looks the part. So he's a 20 year old midfielder doing the biz for a top team in a top league it wont be long before he's wanting £60k, £80k or £100k per week, and other clubs will be willing to give him it and so where faced with yet another contract dispute and unhappy player. It becomes more high profile as he is now a first teamer and may disrupt this dressing room.
There is still question marks over anderson. Will fletcher return? What kind of impact will giggs and scholesy have next year? Can cleverley transfer his form of 4 or 5 games into 40 or 50? What if carrick gets injured? Also lets look at the type of player that pogba could potentially become. Yaya toure like which is exactly what we want. How many of them is there about?? Not many. How much would it cost to bring one in? £25m +. Salaray £150k per week.
Taking all into consideration, its not a question of can we afford the extra £20k per week but can we afford NOT to offer Paul Pogba £40k per week??? I don’t think we can.
Is it too much for a young lad who's talent is pure potential??? Yes of course it is, but somebody else will give him it. Is he/his agent holding the club to ransom? Yes of course he is, but he's a proffessional, its all about supply and demand and top young midfielder are in short supply.
Id rather we succomb to player power and give him more or less what he wants. If he signs and turns into the player he can be it’s a bargain. If he turns out not to be a world beater £40k per week is still a low salary for a decent squad player these days. If he turns out to be a bebe then we have him tied to a long contract and some moron will pay £8 - £10m for him and we get our money back.
I would much prefer the three scenario's above to the scenario of him going elsewhere and turning into the next top midfielder.
At the age of 19 rooney, ronaldo, anderson, jones, rafael, fabio, evens, de gea, macheda and nani and smalling a little older where all on substantially more than what pogba is being offered. Granted, some if not all of those players had "proven" themselves in the first team.
Average / Poor premiership footbalers are on in excess of £50k per week these days. So a red hot highley thought of prospect could argue that he is worth £40k per week.
I am also pretty sure that he hasn’t been given game time not because he isnt ready but because we want to use "you have'nt even played" line in negotiations. Which I also think was the plan with Tevez in his final 6 months. Had we played him he'd have scored shedload and the transfer / salary would go through the roof and also alert other top clubs.
I would guess that pogba is gauging himself in training against the likes of cleverley, jones, da silvas etc etc and thinking he is first team qaulity and that if given the chance he would prove that.
The other rediculous thing in tis saga is lets say the fugures are accurate and we have offered him £20k per week. He signs a 5 year deal on £20k per week. He goes on the pre-season tour and impressess. He gets his chance in first team and looks the part. So he's a 20 year old midfielder doing the biz for a top team in a top league it wont be long before he's wanting £60k, £80k or £100k per week, and other clubs will be willing to give him it and so where faced with yet another contract dispute and unhappy player. It becomes more high profile as he is now a first teamer and may disrupt this dressing room.
There is still question marks over anderson. Will fletcher return? What kind of impact will giggs and scholesy have next year? Can cleverley transfer his form of 4 or 5 games into 40 or 50? What if carrick gets injured? Also lets look at the type of player that pogba could potentially become. Yaya toure like which is exactly what we want. How many of them is there about?? Not many. How much would it cost to bring one in? £25m +. Salaray £150k per week.
Taking all into consideration, its not a question of can we afford the extra £20k per week but can we afford NOT to offer Paul Pogba £40k per week??? I don’t think we can.
Is it too much for a young lad who's talent is pure potential??? Yes of course it is, but somebody else will give him it. Is he/his agent holding the club to ransom? Yes of course he is, but he's a proffessional, its all about supply and demand and top young midfielder are in short supply.
Id rather we succomb to player power and give him more or less what he wants. If he signs and turns into the player he can be it’s a bargain. If he turns out not to be a world beater £40k per week is still a low salary for a decent squad player these days. If he turns out to be a bebe then we have him tied to a long contract and some moron will pay £8 - £10m for him and we get our money back.
I would much prefer the three scenario's above to the scenario of him going elsewhere and turning into the next top midfielder.
How do you know about that? I know feck all about what most of those got in their first season for us.
20k a fecking week seems fair enough if you ask me and if he proves himself he will get a good pay rise.
you want to offer him 40k when he is nothing more than a reserve at the moment? Thats utter madness, and why many clubs are in financial problems. Clubs need to be more prudent not reckless. Its about time the clubs and players woke up
If he had played more than a dozen games for the first team, id say fine, try and meet some of his demands. But he hasn't. Its ludicrous
If he had played more than a dozen games for the first team, id say fine, try and meet some of his demands. But he hasn't. Its ludicrous
I'm sorry Ben but all of the players you mentioned above had already played very well for the club by then or been signed for big money from clubs where they'd already racked up a lot of impressive appearances. You can't compare.
He hasn't even had a fecking loan spell yet.
He hasn't even had a fecking loan spell yet.
But it isnt about the "now" this is about the future, if we tie him down to a 5 year contract his value could sky rocket in those years.
hypotethically saying by the time he is 22 he is the next (insert star player here) how silly are we going to look/feel if we didnt pay him a small amount and do everything possible to keep him here?
I agree 40k for a reserve is too much, but i dont think he is just a reserve anymore. Its a shame that he just hasnt had the games to show he deserve the money in the first team yet or we wouldnt be having this arguement.
10 Minutes against stoke and a game in a shoddy team against palace is nowhere long enough to see how the boy will cope
Imagine the uproar on here if we end up playing Pogba against a so called weaker side in the next few weeks and we get turned over
yep agree that the whole situation is crazy and a sad sign of how things have changed.
He can go be fecked if he is demanding 40K. And how this thread has generated 81 pages is nuts too.
He can go be fecked if he is demanding 40K. And how this thread has generated 81 pages is nuts too.
Especially when he's pulling salaries out his arse.
How an earth can he be certain all those players he mentioned were on substantially more than what Pogba is being offered now when they were just 19?
I think that's unfair because one player don't make a team. Paul scholes made a silly pass sideways giving norwich the ball and within a minute they'd scored. Bad things can happen. However, when you play an experienced team around one kid..then it's up to the experienced players to help the kid. Pogba is also a very capable player in his own right. There are many ways to look at the same thing to suit an argument. The fact is with an experienced team we almost drew against Norwich. The point is, it can happen..a kid regardless...In addition to that, De Gea is a kid too..in a far more important position but people trust him because they've seen him and we accept he'll make mistakes. You always take a chance regardless of what you do.
Say we put this team out
De Gea
Evra
Rio
Evans
Jones
Young
Scholes
Pogba
Nani
Rooney
Wellbeck
And say we lost with that team. I don't see why anyone would look at Pogba. Players compensate for others deficiencies. It's always been that way. If someone goes forward, someone else drops back. You might be right of course, but those people would be wrong i feel. For me De Gea cost us in the champions league, been better in the league - but in years to come he will get better and that's what people should look at. You're not looking at the finished article.
I think you've got to look at how much it would cost to replace him if he left.
If he goes on a free & we have to spend, say £20M on someone to do the job SAF has earmarked for him next season & pay £80K/wk wages, then £40K/wk doesn't actually seem bad value.
If he flourishes like everyone thinks he will, it will indeed seem a good deal for everyone.
I get GB's point though, he needs to prove himself a bit more (like Smalling & Henandez did), which he can't really do unless he gets playing time.
He has until the end of the season to do that.
If SAF doesn't trust him to be involved between now & the end of the season, then maybe he isn't as good as everyone thinks he is.
The last match that he came on as sub, I really liked him, played with a smile on his face & I'd like to see more.
If he goes on a free & we have to spend, say £20M on someone to do the job SAF has earmarked for him next season & pay £80K/wk wages, then £40K/wk doesn't actually seem bad value.
If he flourishes like everyone thinks he will, it will indeed seem a good deal for everyone.
I get GB's point though, he needs to prove himself a bit more (like Smalling & Henandez did), which he can't really do unless he gets playing time.
He has until the end of the season to do that.
If SAF doesn't trust him to be involved between now & the end of the season, then maybe he isn't as good as everyone thinks he is.
The last match that he came on as sub, I really liked him, played with a smile on his face & I'd like to see more.
i have made that point and totally agree with you. however, some of those players came 8 years ago, football wages inflate drastically in that time.
Also, if we signed him now from some french sides reserve team we'd have to give him more than £20k otherwise he'd go elsewhere. Just because he's been with us a few years doesnt mean he cant ask for a "going rate". Unfortunatley the going rate is £40k which i agree for what he has achieved in the game is rediculous. But it is the going rate because i have no doubt city, barca, real, chelsea, juve, inter etc etc will all give him it.
Fans /SAF/ David Gill have to realise that it being an offer from United isnt worth more than if it was an offer from another top club anymore. Especially for a foreign lad.
If he was at all conquering barcelona you might be able to convince him he isnt ready for the first team and that he is atthe best possible place.
But when one minute your telling him he's going to be involved, he's a hot prospect but then play park and rooney in central midfield ahead of him and also Phil Jones (a 19 year old centre back) and rafa da silva (a 19 year old full back returning from injury) in centre midfield ahead of you then recieve what he belives to be a poor contract offer i think he migt be entitles to think...."do they rate me?? do they want me??"
exactly........
also, its worth pointing out that he has never said he wants to go. All these people saying "if he wants to go feck off".....well he doesnt. he's said only good things about the club and his time here. Fergie has said he is unsure.......i cant blame him for being unsure.
As per the qoute above.......its not what he is now its what he can be
It's not as simple as that is it. He's got raiola in his ear and he's clearly worried about his development as a player. He's being promised first team football at a champions league club and we won't offer the same promises or salary. I thought I knew it all at 19 but in fact I didn't have a clue about what I wanted to do. He's got at least two very good options. It's not like he's leaving us for the uae league or something.
Yes it is.....
Hopefully Rio gets through to him. His agents a cock.
It's no just about Pogba's wages though.
As soon as you set a precedent with a bumper contract for one unproven youngster (and highly rated as he is, he remains completely unproven) you'll have all the agents of our other reserves using it as a precedent.
Alright, but if Juventus pay him £40K/wk doesn't that set the same precedent?
It like when Chavs & Shitty started paying ridiculous transfer fees, this set a precedent for the whole transfer market.
perhaps, but then alot of them wont be one of the most gifted players to come through our academy in years.
Most of them we can tell to feck off, but some we have to be more careful.
this is turning into pique mk2 i can feel it.
Yep. The information on how much they were on then is not readily available online.
Macheda would most likely have been on similar wages that they're offering Pogba.
De Gea - his wages at Atletico were rumoured to be around £10k/week and what Ballague said on his website alludes to him not being on much. When he signed for us it was rumoured to be around £40k/week - for a player who has won the U21 championship, the Europa League and Super Cup that is great value.
Evans would probably have been on similar wages to what Pogba was offered.
Rooney would have been on more...
Smalling would have just signed for Fulham at that age so he wouldn't have been on much I don't think, and when he signed for us he was on £25k.
Most information about wages found online is speculation. Nobody knows for sure apart from the odd case where every paper has the same price in which case it is likely someone leaked the figure.
ben saying that they were all on substantially more than what Pogba was offered is just rubbish, even without the exact figures to hand.
Nope. Internal wage structure is much easier to control than wages of football in general.
Agents/footballers can always mither about salaries available at another club but it's a much tougher discussion if they can point to one of their own team-mates and demand parity.
Pique didn't move to earn more money.
He was playing in a position with arguably the two best centre-halves in the world keeping him out of the team and Jonny Evans and Wes Brown providing stiff competition for the third and fourth place slots in the pecking order. Then he got offered a dream move back to his boyhood club, with very little competition for a place in the first-team.
The two scenarios aren't really comparable.
God this thread is as annoying as the Morrison one - always getting bumped with no news.
Given the amount of times I opened that one with hope of a post saying that he'd signed, I am approaching this one with the opposite expectation - that somebody will be telling us he's gone.
As far as I'm concerned this guy is not a United player, and if he does sign, then I can get excited about a new signing!
Given the amount of times I opened that one with hope of a post saying that he'd signed, I am approaching this one with the opposite expectation - that somebody will be telling us he's gone.
As far as I'm concerned this guy is not a United player, and if he does sign, then I can get excited about a new signing!
Eh?
I reckon it's a matter of judgement call from the club. I'm not sure about precedent because not all 18 years old's are as talented as Pogba. You pay the going rate which is set by the market, and it's clear other clubs are willing to pay higher for his services. Only the future will be the judge who's judgement will be right.
Your right in the sense he didnt move for the money, but i mean in a sense that we had a potential world class player in our youth team that we didnt fully utilise, and now live to regret.
I dont think many at the time realised pique would go on to be so good, can we really risk just letting another player leave for the sake of a few thousand extra week?
But if all our brightest prospects can earn more elsewhere, we can end up loosing them & ultimately have to pay more for someone more experienced to do the same job.
Which brings me back to my original point.
We need someone in the centre, we have someone who turn turn into a real prospect. Better to pay him & nurture him than let him go & find ourselves still short.
Say we pay him £40K/wk instead of £20K/wk, it costs us an extra £1M/year. If he turns out shit (or not up to scratch) we can get the money back in the transfer market, especially if we put an large release clause in the contract.
But we set a precedent with Rooney. Does that mean we'll have to double everyone's wages now? I don't think.
You pick the players you think they're/will be the most influential and do everything to keep them.
If our best player can demand a wage that sets him way above anyone else, then our best young talent can do the same, in relation to the other young players.
We just have to decide whether we want to keep him or not.
For the record, I think this 40k Sun thing is bollocks.
That's always been the case.
As has already discussed, some clubs choose to give unproven kids very large salaries, hoping it will pay off in the long run (e.g. Arsenal). The downside of this strategy is that you can't offer the really big salaries to established stars and struggle to shift youngsters who don't make the grade is a nightmare as they have to take a big cut in salary.
At United, the approach is different.
This has all been discussed on the previous page.
We don't have to double everyone's wages, no. But the next time, for example, Nani starts negotiating a new contract you can bet your arse that the deal we offered Rooney will be taken into account.
It's less of a risk giving your best player a big bump in salary, as so few other players fit in the same category. If you start inflating salaries from the bottom up, it will have a much more dramatic overall effect on the wage structure of the club.
I'm quite sure that about a decade ago United decided as policy that we will NOT pay agents for contract renewalls. It doesn't apply, I suppose, to new signings, but when it comes to our players signing new deals, the decision was that any payment the agent is due will come from the player.
There is a very good chance that Piqué would never have become as good as he is now at United, simply because he would have had nowhere near as many opportunities as at Barcelona.
Oh, and as good as he is now, is he THAT good? I mean even Mascherano does very well at CB for Barcelona... I'd love to see Piqué in a team that does not have 70%+ possession every game.
Can we risk letting another player leave for the sake of a few thousand? I'd ask another question: can we afford to pay huge salaries to unproven youngsters in the vague hope that they will become good? Right now, for whatever reason, Park is ahead of him in the pecking order at CM so...
That should be called the Arsenal-syndrome.
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