None of the money is being paid because of the Stoke performance. Its because of his obvious talent and potential.
Paul Pogba
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None of the money is being paid because of the Stoke performance. Its because of his obvious talent and potential.
Agreed
Its a gamble either way but we cant change the whole structure for one unproven player
Which may or may not be enough to warrant a first-team place in the future. You basically take it for granted that he's going to be a superstar but there's very little evidence to support that.
As it is, he's a cornerstone of the Reserve team, on the outermost fringes of the first team. Paying 20k a week to such a player is overkill; that he demands even more is ludicrous.
To put funny money into context, and I know this is stating the obvious for some - 20k a week = £1m a year.
£1m a year! for a player who on merit is not on the first team bench when everyone is fit!
£1m a year! for a player who on merit is not on the first team bench when everyone is fit!
Its because hes a greedy little gobshite! £40,000 a week, for un unproven 18 year old...........feck right off.
Let him waste his career somewhere else. If Arsenal don't make the Top 4 for the Champions League this year then Alex Song will be available and for me he is the real deal and just what we need. I would drive Pogba to Turin myself if it meant getting Alex Song in return over the summer
As a rule, I never try to convince anyone too hard to stay my friend/girlfriend. I find if you have to spend half a day convincing them, you'll be doing it again very soon, and forever, because they don't have it in them to do it on their own. Who wants to have to constantly convince anyone of their merits?
Pogba knew what kind of club we are when he got here. We offer great wages, but not the best. I hope he's the sort that will sign, but if not, I'm sure it's for the best. Mercenaries not wanted.
Pogba knew what kind of club we are when he got here. We offer great wages, but not the best. I hope he's the sort that will sign, but if not, I'm sure it's for the best. Mercenaries not wanted.
It's a gamble worth taking in my opinion. We'd all be excited if were buying on potential alone for around 5-10 Million.
It's more about principle, really. Financially it does make sense to give him a little extra and not have to look outwards instead and spend much more there but I think its a case of the club not bending over for someone so young and unproven.
Being unsure is different to say someone wants more money. Sir Alex said he was unsure and you get that dick muncher talking money(his agent). That represents two different angles to look at someones character. People are rightly frustrated but we have to be sensible. Song is a decent player but United quality? Unless you play for a team, you always have something to prove. Pogba is here. The club haven't given up on him, why would the supporters? The minute the club give up, is when we can assume they have done everything and that he's such a bad kid that he's not worth persevering with.
Right now it's a chess game. It's the same all over the board. We had it with Keane. We had it with Rio. We had it with Rooney. We've had it (up to a point) with wellbeck and obviously Morrison etc. If, we as supporters lose it then maybe we will be cutting off our own nose to spite our face. What is the point in that? We've invested time and effort into producing players. They're not all Ravels. We all need to help him make the right decision. I know it's a non brainer for most of us, but we can still have a big influence and he can still have a great career at United. It's just the same old shit but dressed up differently. So let's be sensible.
So you'd have let Rooney go then?
Nail on head.
It's what I've been saying all along. Its far cheaper to keep him than to find someone else with his potential.
You could argue that he is the best Defensive midfielder in the premier league and fast becoming one of the best on the planet so of course he would be a major addition to our squad if we were lucky enough to ever get him.
It's more likely that Arsenal will sign Pogba as opposed to us signing Song. Then you'll probably be talking about Pogba in a few years too.
True but after 2 seasons at Arse he will be going to either Real or City as they will be the only ones able to afford the kind of salary he will be demanding by then.
I really feel for these guys on only £20K a week - I can understand how unsure that makes somebody.....if he and his agent have had their heads turned elsewhere, then
**** them, that's what I say.
If you waste time pandering to these people's needs, massaging their wallet and ego, you're in it for the long haul and make a rod for your own back.
Get someone in who wants to play for us with realistic expectations of remuneration.
don't appease these people, tell them how it is, boll*cks to 'em !
**** them, that's what I say.
If you waste time pandering to these people's needs, massaging their wallet and ego, you're in it for the long haul and make a rod for your own back.
Get someone in who wants to play for us with realistic expectations of remuneration.
don't appease these people, tell them how it is, boll*cks to 'em !
misterredmist - are you typing in front of children?
Interesting place to take that. I'm happy to make an argument, I'm even happy to convince someone of something. But in the end, Pogba needs to want to be here, or you won't get the best results. Where you draw the line on these sort of decisions is why some people are paid the big bucks.
You've been saying it all along whilst wilfully ignoring (or failing to grasp) the TOTAL cost of breaking our wage structure for one kid, taking into account the inflationary effect that will have on all the subsequent contract negotiations with other youngsters at the club.
How many timed does this need to be pointed out?
At the moment this is what our stance seems to be anyway. The problem is we'll probably have to spend a lot, lot more to bring in a player capable of playing here, which we may be unwilling to do. We can't just let good talent leave at he drop of a hat and refuse to replace it or we will find ourselves in trouble.
Theres no point looking at this as footballers are overpaid and should be grateful as this is completely irrelevant now, as sad as that is.
Everyone involved has said Pogba wants to stay.
Doesn't play for a team that has to week in week out. It's not quite the same. I'm sure some will disagree but the truth is United is a more demanding environment because we've had a sustained exposure to winning trophies .In addition though, Pogba is a different type of midfielder anyway. What can Song do that Carrick can't?
True you don't always have to go like for like and he might add something - but I'm not that convinced he would improve us a great deal.
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About his wages though, we know that wages are sized against a players worth. Worth can really only increase with exposure. I don't see the issue here at all to be honest. You say to the player, look sign this deal and if you are as good as you think you are, next year we'll bump up your contract. I'm at a loss as to what the problem actually is. Game time will come.
I understand the other side of the of the argument, and it's justified. However, I just don't think it would be setting a precedent to be pandering to a potentially special talent. Surely we don't, and should not have one contract that fits all youth players.
I take you back to Rooney again, we broke our wage structure for him. He was absolutely lambasted on here for his actions, myself included, and he's blotted his copybook for a long time to come. But we are better with him than without him. When Nani/Vidic etc come for there next contracts they will, rightly, point to Rooney & expect near parity.
I know you are going to say that Rooney is a completely different case, but the next generation is just as important as the current generation.
Its the way of the world. It makes sound economic sense to keep hold of him, even on those inflated wages. It doesn't have to mean the wage structure will have to be broken for everyone else.
I don't think he's worth it either, I don't think any of them are worth it. The sums they get paid are obscene, but what do you want to do about it? Take a stand on one player and get left behind?
The caveat is that he needs game time between now & the end of the season to prove himself. His agent is a prize cnut, without him in the mix, it would have been signed, sealed & delivered a long time ago.
A very small percentage of the players will make it at United. We know this and therefore what they ask for - doesn't really matter. A players worth have never been as valuable and we should remember this.
Lets look at Cleverly as an example. If we'd have sold him a few years back, we might not even have got a million for him. Now though he's worth how much? And you want to know the kicker? Here's the kicker...Wait for it. He's barely even played! So what's his worth?
He's in the England set up. He's 22. He's getting great exposure. He still has it all to do....but his value has rocketed. However as a supporter, we don't give a shit about that. What we look at is a player, we feel comfortable with based on so little experience....
It's a funny old game.
Lets look at Cleverly as an example. If we'd have sold him a few years back, we might not even have got a million for him. Now though he's worth how much? And you want to know the kicker? Here's the kicker...Wait for it. He's barely even played! So what's his worth?
He's in the England set up. He's 22. He's getting great exposure. He still has it all to do....but his value has rocketed. However as a supporter, we don't give a shit about that. What we look at is a player, we feel comfortable with based on so little experience....
It's a funny old game.
I wonder what if we have a 17 yrs old Messi coming through, would we break our wage structure to keep such player, hypothetically speaking that is.
A 17 year old Messi would be in our first team, much like an 18 year old Rooney was when he was on £70k per week so that should answer that daft question.
Let's put it back in to context of the topic: Pogba has made a handful of first team appearances in low profile games.
If Ferguson thinks he is going to be as good as most of us seem to think he will, then I think we'd save in the long term by offering him enough money to stay. If he is going to be a first teamer within a couple of years, would it not be worth keeping him rather than buying somebody in?
I baffling that he hasn't been tied down to a contract before now anyway.
But would he get the chances to prove that?
Rooney was only bought because newcastle forced our hand, and he was tested already at PL level.
I just think we have been a bit nervous to test pogba recently, as in the majority of our games they havent been dead rubber until the final minutes.
We rarely kill teams off right now which doesnt give the youth much of a chance
the key word in your argument is "potentially"
every kid that comes through could potentially be a special talent. The likes of Gibson etc were milling reserve level
If we're going to offer him a big contract to keep him it should be incentive based.
£20k a week now, £40k a week after 50 games.
That way the club would know when he is nearing 50 games (a year or two?) whether he is going to be worth the extra money and stick or twist and won't be lumbered with an average player on a big wage they can't shift.
£20k a week now, £40k a week after 50 games.
That way the club would know when he is nearing 50 games (a year or two?) whether he is going to be worth the extra money and stick or twist and won't be lumbered with an average player on a big wage they can't shift.
It's really up to the players ain't it...
Why can't players just take Gascoigne for an example... He had all the talent in the world but lacked a good coach to support him ?
Why can't young players see that they are under the best manager in the whole world and why can't they just trust him and see that as a blessing, something worth way more than a few thousand pounds at the start of their career...
I can see Pogba turning into an average MF... Even Djemba like if he goes into the wrong environment where he doesn't get too much of the ball... But if he stays under SAF, who knows what type of player he'll turn out to be...
Still, I'm pretty sure that if he's just thinking about money, he doesn't have the charisma, the mentality that a United player should have and I wouldn't regret one bit if he moved elsewhere, hell even Messi if he had no heart to wear the shirt, I'd still play a 40 Giggs or someone worthy enough to represent the team...
United are much more than just money, if a player can't see this then I wouldn't regret one bit if he left.
Why can't players just take Gascoigne for an example... He had all the talent in the world but lacked a good coach to support him ?
Why can't young players see that they are under the best manager in the whole world and why can't they just trust him and see that as a blessing, something worth way more than a few thousand pounds at the start of their career...
I can see Pogba turning into an average MF... Even Djemba like if he goes into the wrong environment where he doesn't get too much of the ball... But if he stays under SAF, who knows what type of player he'll turn out to be...
Still, I'm pretty sure that if he's just thinking about money, he doesn't have the charisma, the mentality that a United player should have and I wouldn't regret one bit if he moved elsewhere, hell even Messi if he had no heart to wear the shirt, I'd still play a 40 Giggs or someone worthy enough to represent the team...
United are much more than just money, if a player can't see this then I wouldn't regret one bit if he left.
If they are good enough, they play. Ferguson wanted to play Fletcher at 16 but found out he couldn't because he was still at School. I don't think you'll ever find Ferguson to be "Nervous" to try out a youngster. This is someone who let Anderson in his first season at the club and just 19 years old step up and take a penalty in the European Cup Final.
The reason Pogba is not playing right now is because he isn't ready yet. I bet good money that if we get him signed up he'll be off for a Premiership loan til January at least.
The difference is, Rooney was a big player and signed for record breaking fees at that time. My hypothetical question is, lets assume the young 17 Messi (or whoever with huge potential but little first team experience) is coming straight from our youth, who only has made a handful of appearance, and basically in similar situation as Pogba.
Would we break our wage structure to keep such a player?
We don't have a wage structure based on age which is what you are inferring. We have a structure based on squad status and importance to the club. Once a player is deemed good enough for the first team he is promoted and paid accordingly.
Giggs at 18 would have been on far more than the other academy players because he was playing regularly for our first team and none of them would have questioned it.
Pogba right now is playing for our reserves and although he may be looking like a real talent, he hasn't made any real impact in the first team so if you pay him a large figure now, why shouldn't his academy team mates start asking for more? Fryers has started more than Pogba, should he be on £40k a week aswell?
When Pogba breaks the first team, the money will follow. If he wants to chase the money in Italy, so be it.
He'd get a wage hike after a good season ala Hernandez, Smalling
yes, because he probably is already playing first team football (eg Giggs at 17)
Pogba is not playing 1st team football, despite the 1st team midfield options consisting off: a 38 year old, a man who came back from retirement, a permacrock fatty, a player out through serious illness, 1 lightweight Korean winger, a teenage Brazilian who normally plays fullback and an uninspiring Geordie crab
you know..just whisper it.. it may be that Pogba just isn't at that stage just yet..
Exactly. You can't pay your players on "how good you think they might be". Until they have actually shown they can do the business for the first team, they have to prove it other wise the whole of the reserves and academy would be knocking on Gills door saying they think they are going to be amazing and want a wage to reflect that.
Everyone in this thread needs to chill the feck out. Pogba is a talent, he is at the perfect club for him to maximise that talent, how much of a talent we see him as will be reflected in the contract we offer him. Also there is nothing to suggest we won't offer him a contract to his liking that actually compromises to his status, what's wrong with saying we'll give you 40k a week once you play X games for us. There's a lot of room manoeuvre, I'd prefer to keep him as I don't want to wonder what could have been. If we want him and he wants to stay it'll be sorted out.
Just tell us again which team you support?
That's a damning indictment indeed...
Putting it like that, Pogba would be a decent addition, perhaps as 'an overpaid, untried academy youngster'?
On that basis, sign him up!
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