Berbatov | Fulham player

I personally wouldn't call him a flop. I can see where people are coming from when they call him one, but if you're calling him a flop, you're putting him in the same category as the likes of Torres and Carroll for Chelsea and Liverpool respectively. Now, he's certainly not in that bracket, is he?

He has won a golden boot award while playing for us, and he's had a few magnificent games here and there as well.

I certainly wouldn't class him as a runaway success either though. I do believe, however, that there's a middle ground inbetween for big signings like him. I'd have him in that bracket to be honest. A player who has not lived up to his price tag, but has still played well overall. It's not his fault we signed him for £30m: a fee I'm not sure if he was ever really worth.

What I would say though is that it may not have been the wisest signing for Fergie to make. We had probably the best front three in the whole of Europe before he arrived, and he was more of a luxury. When you anticipate some of the midfield problems we're having now, then that money could have possibly been better going elsewhere. Still, hindsight is a wonderful thing, as they say.
 
Berba has his army of fans. You can call it PR, denial or blind support but it was there. He has progressively got better each season so there is evidence to say he adapted as well as the team. However not sure why he has been used so infrequently.

Extending his contract only to sell him lacks some class by United. Berba has conducted himself with grace United should also. If we want him then lets keep him
 
Because of last season he was not a flop and he has looked good at times when he has played this season.

His 1st two seasons were very disappointing for me and if he had continued like that he would have been a huge flop.

I dont believe he had the mentality to be a top, top forward at Utd.
 
cheesy said:
What I would say though is that it may not have been the wisest signing for Fergie to make. We had probably the best front three in the whole of Europe before he arrived, and he was more of a luxury.
Click to expand...

However, Ferguson knew two things...

1. Tevez was a cnut and it was going to be near on impossible to keep him as his advisor's had plans.

2. Ronaldo was off the following year.

When Ronaldo left I thought back to the Berbatov transfer and knowing that Fergie knew he was off the following year, I thought it was part of Ferguson's plans to reshape the team and to do so with Berbatov having a year to adapt to his surroundings rather than Ronaldo out - Berbatov in and a heap load of pressure on him.
 
Commadus said:
Berba has his army of fans. You can call it PR, denial or blind support but it was there. He has progressively got better each season so there is evidence to say he adapted as well as the team. However not sure why he has been used so infrequently.

Extending his contract only to sell him lacks some class by United. Berba has conducted himself with grace United should also. If we want him then lets keep him
Click to expand...

How would we lack class by doing it? If we extended his contract, then he'd be happy to do it. If that's the case, then it's up to other teams to approach us if they're willing to pay.

Unless we put a gun to Berba's head and forced him to sign, which we won't do, then I think it's more of a shrewd move rather than anything else.
 
cheesy said:
I personally wouldn't call him a flop. I can see where people are coming from when they call him one, but if you're calling him a flop, you're putting him in the same category as the likes of Torres and Carroll for Chelsea and Liverpool respectively. Now, he's certainly not in that bracket, is he?

He has won a golden boot award while playing for us, and he's had a few magnificent games here and there as well.

I certainly wouldn't class him as a runaway success either though. I do believe, however, that there's a middle ground inbetween for big signings like him. I'd have him in that bracket to be honest. A player who has not lived up to his price tag, but has still played well overall. It's not his fault we signed him for £30m: a fee I'm not sure if he was ever really worth.

What I would say though is that it may not have been the wisest signing for Fergie to make. We had probably the best front three in the whole of Europe before he arrived, and he was more of a luxury. When you anticipate some of the midfield problems we're having now, then that money could have possibly been better going elsewhere. Still, hindsight is a wonderful thing, as they say.
Click to expand...

How does he compare to Veron would you say?
 
Raoul said:
That's the problem with people thinking United's money is "their" money. Berba has nothing to do with the perceptions that some people have regarding what a given transfer fee is supposed to contribute.
Click to expand...

I agree. As I said above I dont blame him for this. And the price doesn't have any relevance to how well he played. But he wasn't good value for money, and for me that makes him a flop.

You are right, it's about thinking the club's money is our money. Money that could have been used to sign players who would have played. A £30m player that might have made a difference when we lined up against Barca, perhaps. £30m is a lot of money, it's fair enough to want to see more of a return on that investment.
 
When Fergie left him completely out of the CL final, I'd have bet my mortgage he'd be gone over the summer. I remember posting in the Newbs that his omission was a clear signal that he had no future at the club. But Berbatov didn't read it. Or maybe he didn't want to.

What's surprising is that Fergie didn't have a word over the summer. He must have known he wasn't going to use him. It's not as if Berb began the new season badly and lost favour. He was persona non grata from the start.

Anyway, the fat lady has sung. So much expectation, so much muppet bodily fluid, and it's come to this.

Hasta la vista, Berba. Or not.
 
Guybrush Threepwood said:
How does he compare to Veron would you say?
Click to expand...

There are some similarities between the two in the way that neither of them really fitted into our team, but I'd have Berbatov above Veron as he was able to produce for the majority of a full season. Veron only showed glimpses here and there, but didn't deliver most of the time. He'd probably go in the flop category.
 
cheesy said:
How would we lack class by doing it? If we extended his contract, then he'd be happy to do it. If that's the case, then it's up to other teams to approach us if they're willing to pay.

Unless we put a gun to Berba's head and forced him to sign, which we won't do, then I think it's more of a shrewd move rather than anything else.
Click to expand...

I don't think Berba has a choice, is was an option in his original contract.
 
Commadus said:
Berba has his army of fans. You can call it PR, denial or blind support but it was there. He has progressively got better each season so there is evidence to say he adapted as well as the team. However not sure why he has been used so infrequently.

Extending his contract only to sell him lacks some class by United. Berba has conducted himself with grace United should also. If we want him then lets keep him
Click to expand...

Don't think it lacks class at all. He has been a good player and has been exemplary behaviour wise even when benched, but he's hardly given the club 10 years solid service where you would feel it justified to not stand in their way (John O'Shea and Wes Brown we let go for pittance).

He cost a lot of money and will still have a decent resale value, makes sense to me at least to keep him on contract.
 
cheesy said:
How would we lack class by doing it? If we extended his contract, then he'd be happy to do it. If that's the case, then it's up to other teams to approach us if they're willing to pay.

Unless we put a gun to Berba's head and forced him to sign, which we won't do, then I think it's more of a shrewd move rather than anything else.
Click to expand...

His contract was odd, more than anything. They were never going to let him leave for free so it was always going to be activated
 
as good as gone in the summer, thanks for the memories, berba.......
 
cheesy said:
I personally wouldn't call him a flop. I can see where people are coming from when they call him one, but if you're calling him a flop, you're putting him in the same category as the likes of Torres and Carroll for Chelsea and Liverpool respectively. Now, he's certainly not in that bracket, is he?
Click to expand...

That's a fair point.

It's a bit like the World Class debate in a way. Where does flop end and disappointment begin? How many flops can you have in a transfer window? Maybe you can only make one team of flops, with a flop in every position, and anyone outside that is merely a disappointment. Or maybe flop is a more moderate term, for the likes of Berbs, and Carrol is more than that: the Zidane of flops: a total and utter waste of fecking space. A WOFS.

Berbs and Veron are flops. Torres and Carrol are WOFS.

But you have to make some distinction between the two groups, you are right, because they are different kettles of fish.
 
Sultan said:
I'd have thought he would have played the Cantona, Sheringham role perfectly. However, with United not playing with a traditional target man he ended up competing with Rooney for the traditional number 10 role, and there was only ever going to be one winner. Needed a Ruud, or Cole type striker to have had a better time at United.

Class player, no doubt in a different system.
Click to expand...

The Franca Berbatov forward line at Bayer Leverkusen proves this - Berba was the number 10 and Franca the out and out forward, worked brilliantly.

What saddens me is that he was poor 1st season yet had the luxury of getting games, yet in his 3rd and 4th seasons when he has been in form he has not got a consistent run of games. A Rooney can be played back into form, but not a Berbatov. Cannot blame SAF because he knows how he wants the team to play, but I still cannot help but think Berbatov has been grossly underutilized these two seasons.

If he goes, as is likely, who will be a capable 4th choice forward of his quality and willing to play a bit part role, last thing we need is to spend 20M odd on a backup striker. Will Keane is too young and Macheda has regressed. SAF always has 4 strikers going into a season, so unless he buys someone or retains Owen I would still keep Berbatov to be honest.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
That's a fair point.

It's a bit like the World Class debate in a way. Where does flop end and disappointment begin? How many flops can you have in a transfer window? Maybe you can only make one team of flops, with a flop in every position, and anyone outside that is merely a disappointment. Or maybe flop is a more moderate term, for the likes of Berbs, and Carrol is more than that: the Zidane of flops: a total and utter waste of fecking space. A WOFS.

Berbs and Veron are flops. Torres and Carrol are WOFS.

But you have to make some distinction between the two groups, you are right, because they are different kettles of fish.
Click to expand...

Yep, personally when calling a player a flop, I don't really bring the price tag into it, because you judge a player as a flop depending on how they play. They didn't choose their transfer fee. If there's anything floppy about Berbatov, it's the fee Sir Alex paid for him. Berbatov himself has probably been decent: nothing more; nothing less.
 
cheesy said:
Yep, personally when calling a player a flop, I don't really bring the price tag into it, because you judge a player as a flop depending on how they play. They didn't choose their transfer fee. If there's anything floppy about Berbatov, it's the fee Sir Alex paid for him. Berbatov himself has probably been decent: nothing more; nothing less.
Click to expand...

Berbatov was arguably our player of the season last year. Nothing more than decent seems very harsh considering him and Nani were instrumental in the first half of the season which played a huge part in our title win. Unless Hernandez had burst on to the scene I think Berbatov would have got games in the second half as well and would have won the golden boot on his own.

Berbatov has been more than decent by all accounts. He also clearly is not a flop. The goals vs games count proves it, if nothing else.

He however has not been a consistent standout performer over his time here. So you can say he did not exceed or meet all expectations.
 
Sultan said:
I'd have thought he would have played the Cantona, Sheringham role perfectly..
Click to expand...

Funnily I think his career has followed a similar trajectory to Teddy's. Came in with a big reputation. Underwhelmed for a bit and didn't quite fit in and then had one outstanding season.

Sadly for Dimitar he didn't have one amazing week in the middle of it all which contained a MOTM FA cup final appearance and an equalizer in a UCL final.
 
digitalnirvana said:
Berbatov was arguably our player of the season last year. Nothing more than decent seems very harsh considering him and Nani were instrumental in the first half of the season which played a huge part in our title win. Unless Hernandez had burst on to the scene I think Berbatov would have got games in the second half as well and would have won the golden boot on his own.

Berbatov has been more than decent by all accounts. He also clearly is not a flop. The goals vs games count proves it, if nothing else.

He however has not been a consistent standout performer over his time here. So you can say he did not exceed or meet all expectations.
Click to expand...

Possibly. I don't think we can say that he was a runaway success based on one season though. That one season stopped him from being a flop in my opinion, but it doesn't make him a runaway success. Same goes for someone like Anelka at Chelsea. He won a golden boot for them, however nobody would've called him a runaway success either.

It's his lack of games that really held him back to be honest, which is probably more down to Fergie. He should've been able to judge whether Berbatov fitted into our team or not before he bought him.
 
Well thats the end of that. My respect for him has gone up, obviously wanted to be here, never once complained about being benched, and hasn't produced any negative headlines.

As a player, he's been average to decent, probably wouldn't have the the league without him last year, came nowhere near to justifying his price tag
 
For the Berbatov apologists, it is always everyone's fault but the Bulgarian himself.

Fergie has been absolutely right to play him so sparingly this season. Welbeck and Chicharito are simply better options.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
For me, a player that cost £30m plus, who didn't make the bench in a CL final and who has spent the vast majority of his time here on the bench, is a flop. The question is only how you apportion blame. And for me, as I have argued before, it lies first and foremost with SAF. Berbs is a certain type of player and once he had him, SAF couldn't fit him into the team effectively. He should really have anticipated that and spent the £30m on someone who would fit into the team.
Click to expand...

Look at the timing of Berba's purchase from Spurs. Ronaldo left a year later but it seems likely that United knew he wasn't going to stay around long term. So Berbatov came at a time when Sir Alex was preparing for Ronaldo's departure but wasn't quite sure how the team would function; after all, it had been built around Ronaldo's strengths and weaknesses.

It was only after seeing the post-Ronaldo team in action for some time did it become clear to Sir Alex that Berba wasn't helping the side to play the way he wanted it to. Even then, it is only once Hernandez started having a major impact, and more recently, Welbeck's return from loan, that there were options that Sir Alex viewed as preferable to using Berba + Rooney together whenever he wanted to use 2 up front.

Sir Alex had little chance of anticipating that Rooney + Welbeck/Hernandez was preferable to Rooney + Berbatov, as Welbeck was still a promising kid when Berba arrived, while our scouting team probably hadn't even got Hernandez's name down on their database of players to track in case they turn out to be good.

digitalnirvana said:
If he goes, as is likely, who will be a capable 4th choice forward of his quality and willing to play a bit part role, last thing we need is to spend 20M odd on a backup striker. Will Keane is too young and Macheda has regressed. SAF always has 4 strikers going into a season, so unless he buys someone or retains Owen I would still keep Berbatov to be honest.
Click to expand...

The evidence from this season would suggest that we don't need a high quality 4th striker. The only scenario in which a player of that standard is of value to us is if there are long term injuries to our other main forwards. We have the option of playing 4-3-3 if necessary, while Welbeck is perfectly decent playing in the hole if Rooney is missing.

So long as one of Macheda, Will Keane or Josh King is fit and sufficiently on form to perform to a decent standard for say 2 premier league starts and 8 sub appearances then we're likely to be fine with them as 4th striker.
 
kundalini said:
Look at the timing of Berba's purchase from Spurs. Ronaldo left a year later but it seems likely that United knew he wasn't going to stay around long term. So Berbatov came at a time when Sir Alex was preparing for Ronaldo's departure but wasn't quite sure how the team would function; after all, it had been built around Ronaldo's strengths and weaknesses.

It was only after seeing the post-Ronaldo team in action for some time did it become clear to Sir Alex that Berba wasn't helping the side to play the way he wanted it to. Even then, it is only once Hernandez started having a major impact, and more recently, Welbeck's return from loan, that there were options that Sir Alex viewed as preferable to using Berba + Rooney together whenever he wanted to use 2 up front.

Sir Alex had little chance of anticipating that Rooney + Welbeck/Hernandez was preferable to Rooney + Berbatov, as Welbeck was still a promising kid when Berba arrived, while our scouting team probably hadn't even got Hernandez's name down on their database of players to track in case they turn out to be good.
Click to expand...

It's about player types tho, isn't it. About Berbs "not fitting in the team". Whether Berbs fits into the team or not has nothing to do with Welbeck or Chicharito. What you say makes sense, but it doesn't explain why SAF has so little trust in him that he never plays him, ever. If he was just 4th choice then yes. But it's like he isn't an option at all. We've been playing 2 up front most of the season and he still can't get a game. To me that says it isn't simply other combos working better, it's Berbs being completely incompatible.

You still make a good point that SAF had to reevaluate the whole way we play after Ronaldo left. And maybe he changed his mind about playing in a way that berbs was suited to. Still, that was a mistake, and an expensive one. There are mitigating circumstances, but in an ideal world SAF would've figured out he wanted a pacey goal poacher before he splashed out £30m on exactly the opposite type of striker.
 
His goals won us the league last season, and he scored some mightly important goals during the 08/09 season to help us win that title too... ergo, totally and categorically not a flop and well worth £30 million Manchester United pounds.

He's also been a class act this season off the field. This is how any footballer who isn't getting picked, and is perhaps unhappy with their role in the team should behave. Top top man. Hopefully he'll get a good send off at the last game of the season at OT.
 
He counts as a flop for me that is if he was to leave as things stand. We can talk about ignoring the transfer fee but the main reason why Torres and Carroll are always brought is because of their transfer fee. I think the signing comes down as a flop and will go down as an blotch in Ferguson's notebook. The player himself has mitigating factors which are understandable but it remains that he never fitted into the team and it seemed obvious to me before we even signed him.
 
For his price tag he has underachieved, no doubt about that.

I love the guy though, his class and elegance on the ball was/is outstanding, sad to see him go, when he does go.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
it doesn't explain why SAF has so little trust in him that he never plays him, ever. If he was just 4th choice then yes. But it's like he isn't an option at all. We've been playing 2 up front most of the season and he still can't get a game.
Click to expand...

Sheringham didn't play a whole lot in 98/99. Granted, he was also injured part of the time, but a fourth choice striker at United doesn't get that much playing time unless the other forwards are regularly injured.
 
Least we have established he was 4th choice as I know a lot of people wanted to bury their heads in the sand regarding this earlier on in the season. Couldn't believe some people even though Fergie was just playing Welbeck so as to give Berbatov a rest before playing him or something like that.
 
mungy said:
For his price tag he has underachieved, no doubt about that.

I love the guy though, his class and elegance on the ball was/is outstanding, sad to see him go, when he does go.
Click to expand...

Was title number 19 not worth £30 million?? I reckon it was to Manchester United soley from a financial point of view...
 
Unfortunately, in the age of FM transfer muppetry, people are associating what players market prices are, with fantasist notions of what they should do on the pitch. The two shouldn't be associated when evaluating a players contribution.
 
kundalini said:
Look at the timing of Berba's purchase from Spurs. Ronaldo left a year later but it seems likely that United knew he wasn't going to stay around long term. So Berbatov came at a time when Sir Alex was preparing for Ronaldo's departure but wasn't quite sure how the team would function; after all, it had been built around Ronaldo's strengths and weaknesses.

It was only after seeing the post-Ronaldo team in action for some time did it become clear to Sir Alex that Berba wasn't helping the side to play the way he wanted it to. Even then, it is only once Hernandez started having a major impact, and more recently, Welbeck's return from loan, that there were options that Sir Alex viewed as preferable to using Berba + Rooney together whenever he wanted to use 2 up front.

Sir Alex had little chance of anticipating that Rooney + Welbeck/Hernandez was preferable to Rooney + Berbatov, as Welbeck was still a promising kid when Berba arrived, while our scouting team probably hadn't even got Hernandez's name down on their database of players to track in case they turn out to be good.



The evidence from this season would suggest that we don't need a high quality 4th striker. The only scenario in which a player of that standard is of value to us is if there are long term injuries to our other main forwards. We have the option of playing 4-3-3 if necessary, while Welbeck is perfectly decent playing in the hole if Rooney is missing.

So long as one of Macheda, Will Keane or Josh King is fit and sufficiently on form to perform to a decent standard for say 2 premier league starts and 8 sub appearances then we're likely to be fine with them as 4th striker.
Click to expand...

I think there's a lot of sense in what you're saying and I don't think its been entirely clear to Sir Alex what he wanted to do with the side since Ronaldo left or how he was going to get the best out of the players at the club.

Buying Valencia indicated that he was looking to play a more traditional 4-4-2 and move away from the almost free role Ronaldo had. I'm guessing he thought Rooney and Berba could strike up a similar partnership to the one Berba had with Keane at Spurs. The difference there however was whilst Keane worked his backside off alongside Berba just as Rooney does Rooney is a far superior player. Whereas the Spurs attack revolved around the creativity of Berba with the hustle and bustle of Keane our attack became Rooney centred in Ronaldo's absence. So much so that through large parts of our first Ronaldo-less season 09/10 we played with 1 striker: Rooney and when he got injured against Bayern our season fell apart. When Fergie tried to graft Berba into the pattern that had been built for Rooney at Ewood Park it just didn't click.

You can argue that Sir Alex should have anticipated that this would happen. Not so much that Rooney would become a prolific forward. But that given Rooney's gifts as a footballer he would overshadow Berba in a way it was never likely Keane would and that the tempo of our game would naturally change to fit in with the tempo Wazza wanted to play at and not Berbatov. On the other hand you can make the case that when we signed Berba Rooney's influence had been on the wane a bit even in our build up play and his passing and creativity had been just as inconsistent as his goalscoring.

The evolution of the team to fit Rooney led to another alteration with the introduction of Javier Hernandez. It was mainly because Rooney's return to goalscoring form coincided with Hernandez's hard working and hard running that we really went back to something closely resembling 4-4-2 on a consistent basis. Up until that point if we played a big team we'd always change our shape, usually bring in Park to give extra legs to the midfield etc. but when Rooney began to blossom again with Chico opening up the space for him by distracting defenders the Boss ditched the 09/10 template and altered the system again.

Once again the big issue for Berba was that he was signed to play that role with Rooney doing the hustling and bustling as Rooney had, to some extent, done for Ronaldo. Its because Rooney has taken Ronaldo's place as the heart of our attack that Berba has ended up in this position because playing him doesn't really play to Rooney's strengths. Berba's a great player but the team has evolved into something that means he is effectively the back up to Rooney but with the disadvantage that Rooney plays the game with a higher pace than Berba so when Berba comes into that role we look less joined up. When Rooney picks up the ball everyone is moving because they expect him to take it and release it relatively quickly. Berbatov wants to play a more patient game and when you're using to responding to Rooney's boundless energy its difficult just to flip the switch and start passing it around Argentina style awaiting an opening.

Like I said Berba will probably leave us and go to Spain or Italy where that kind of football is more prevalent and have a great swansong to his career.
 
Although I don't think he was that 'last piece of the jigsaw' SAF would have liked, he's still been a fine and valuable player.

Lots of medals and last year's joint top scorer are achievements to be proud of - I hope he stays as part of a rotating squad but if he wants 1st team football, so be it and I hope he flourishes elsewhere (abroad).
 
Raoul said:
Unfortunately, in the age of FM transfer muppetry, people are associating what players market prices are, with fantasist notions of what they should do on the pitch. The two shouldn't be associated when evaluating a players contribution.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, but even if you have to (and people seemingly do have to) take his price into account, I'm still not sure how he can be regarded as a flop... the mans goals won us our record breaking 19th league title!

Your right though, it shouldn't have anything to do with it, and Berbatov should be remembered as a great signing and great striker for Manchester United.
 
I think the reason why he wasn't sold in the summer when that great offer from PSG came in, was because Sir Alex really believed we'd need him this season. Welbeck had a good, but not eyebrow raising, loan spell at Sunderland, not to mention a history of injuries, and I don't think anyone predicted he'd be as influential as he's been this season. Then there was always a chance that Hernandez would've suffered from second season syndrome or at the very least suffered from fatigue, at some point, because he essentially had no offseason because of the Gold Cup.

Also, in my opinion, Berbatov's best role in the team would be where Rooney plays. But because of the tightness of the league, Rooney has to start every game he's fit for, as he is the better option because of the defensive work he does when we don't have possession. Berbatov and Rooney are too similar, in that they both like to drop deep, so a partnership with them hasn't really worked to well.

As far as calling him a flop, I strongly disagree. I think he was a major factor in us winning the title last year. He stepped up huge when Rooney was either off form or absent last season. I think a title is well worth 30.75 million.
 
Price tags will aways be looked at and questioned. It is not a new "FM era" way to look at transfers either. It has been that way for as long as I can remember.

No it is not a players fault what they have cost. But when they sign for a new club they must handle the pressure that comes with the price tag.

Its part of top level football and always has been.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.