I will always maintain Berba was a guilty pleasure purchase by Fergie who was probably enamored by his Cantona like silky skills and not his practicality. You could argue he might be one reason for Fergies reluctance to spend big on a player ever since then. Theres no doubting his talent but he never did fit Fergie or Uniteds style of play did he?
Berbatov | Fulham player
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Fine... that makes sense, but "failure" is an incredibly strong word. Comments like "I had hoped for a bit more" or whatever are indeed reasonable... but to say he's been a "failure" is, for me, disparaging of our achievement last season.
When you look at Fergie's signings that could actually be regarded as "failures" Berba is light-years ahead of them.
Failure is too strong a word to describe his contribution to our recent success. Specially so last season when he was a major reason why we won our 19th. That said, his contribution has been underwhelming. for quite a few reasons actually and not everything to do with him either. Sir Alex's reluctance to use him this season even though he's done well when given the chance has been a bit strange. The emergence of 2 quality young strikers and the way they fit in is the reason for it rather than berba himself being not good enough.
In all, am actually glad he came. huge admirer of the way he plays. That said, in hindsight, the 30mil could have been better used. I was absolutely delighted when he came though so am not complaining. Its a tad sad to see him leave but its best for both parties. A tad unfortunate we couldnt cash in when PSG came calling last summer when we'l sell him for much less this time around.
In all, am actually glad he came. huge admirer of the way he plays. That said, in hindsight, the 30mil could have been better used. I was absolutely delighted when he came though so am not complaining. Its a tad sad to see him leave but its best for both parties. A tad unfortunate we couldnt cash in when PSG came calling last summer when we'l sell him for much less this time around.
I honestly can't believe that if someone said to you:
"He'll have a really bad first season, an underwhelming second season, then a very good start but would fade off and be dropped for the most important games in his third season. Oh and he'll also score a hat-trick against Liverpool at Old Trafford".
You'd have said "fantastic".
If that is the case you obviously didn't rate him at Spurs and so didn't believe he was capable of being a consistent fixture in our first team and our medium-long term success.
I expected him to be one of our 3-4 key players for 5-6 years and a good option to have for another couple after that. It turns out he's been a key player for 1 season out of 4 and will be sold after the 4th. That to me is disappointing and underwhelming.
You're underrating his contributions to support your bleak argument. He did get off to a slow start, and then make some very good contributions over the past 24 months, even this year. Golden Boot and on course to improve on it this year if he was played. Fergie just chose not to play him despite the fact that he was performing well. A strategic move to incorporate Hernandez into the side and Welbeck's ascent to first team football can't be held against Berbatov. He did everything he was supposed last year.
If that's all you honestly can take out of my post then fair enough but I think you're wildly distorting my words. I didn't call Berbatov a failure at all, as a player or a human being, the words you quoted were 'as a signing I still think it's been an expensive failure.'
For me, so much of this thread seems to be discussing Berbatov as an individual player. If he played for any other team I'd just be left with the same love of watching him play and I'd too probably be disappointed that he wasn't playing more. But when it's United I don't care about an individual player's talents, only what they can bring to the team and how effective they are for us.
When evaluating a signing I don't see how you can't look at the cost and think whether that money could have been better used. I'm not purposefully being condescending here but players obviously don't win championships on their own. Berba's performances were a massive (if not exaggerated in my opinion) part of us winning the league last year. You're right, anything else is an unknown, but all I'm stating is my opinion that I think another player could have contributed more to us these 4 seasons and beyond. If people want to discuss how all blame lies with Ferguson for this, fine, but these are the terms I discuss players in. When I think of Veron at United I don't think 'what a player, what a pity he wasn't here under different circumstances' - at any other club I would. I only think of it as a disappointment. It doesn't mean these are attacks on individual players.
He didn't have a "really bad first season" at all though. He was underwhelming but he scored some crucial goals for us without which we would not have won the title.
That's why I said he was one of our key players last year. The proceeding two seasons he was very disappointing.
The only ones I recall is his goals in our 1-0 wins against Middlesbrough & Bolton. I thought he had a very poor season, in fact if I recall most people put his poor form down to a lack of pre-season and us leaving it so late to sign him.
Woah now, let's not shift goal posts here. The question wasn't that I'd say "fantastic" ... nor did I suggest I would. The term you used was "happy" ... and I'd stand by that. If you told me Berbs would directly contribute immensely to winning one of those leagues (19th no less) and play his part in another 2 (though admitidly not anywhere near to the same scale, though he still had his moments) ... and that we'd win 3 titles in 4 seasons whilst he was with us, then yeah, "happy" would adequately describe me.
As I said though, obviously you could have expect more... it's only natural for someone who cost £30 million (though as people have pointed out, that's not his fault)... if he cost half of that though, I don't think you'd find anyone complaining much. Expecting more is perfectly reasonable, saying he's been a "failure" is what I find to be ridiculous.
The poster Bryan Munich is keeping quiet these days.
Weak argument? A signing isn't judged by how much was paid? That has no logic. If you're judging him as a player then the price doesnt matter. But to judge a signing its one of the most important factors quite clearly.
Well said
Well said again.
I get you're not saying it was great, just not as bad as has been stated, but I really don't like this 'we wouldn't have won the title without this player' arguments. We wouldn't have won it without Macheda, either. The exact same could be said for Diego Forlán in his first full season. The point is whether a player meets the expectations set.
Fair enough, but I think the success of the club over the last three seasons, rather than specfically Berbatov's contribution is clouding your view.
I am disappointed with him. But I wouldn't say he was a failure or a flop, that'd be too harsh.
See this is the problem. You are putting him not playing at SAF's door.
But its Berba's fault that he has failed to win SAF's trust especially in the bigger matches. He was the top scorer yet SAF didn't even trust him enough to put him on the bench for the UCL final. He felt if the chips were down and a chance presented itself then Michael 'fecking' Owen would be more likely to take it than Dimitar.
Fact of the matter is, when we really really needed a goal or a touch of magic in the big PL and UCL games SAF rarely felt he would deliver. Hence the limited opportunities over the years. This isn't SAF's fault. I doubt he has anything against Berba otherwise he'd have been long gone. He'll pick the team he thinks is good enough to win. Its down to Berbatov not delivering when he was given the chance and in the process losing SAF's trust.
I think its the price tag which is the issue. With that amount of money spent we are entitled to question whether we received and adequate return on investment. I have no doubt with more game time and a higher goals ratio he would prove many doubters wrong.
He has undoubted class and it is unfortunate that at times his attitude on the pitch was described as non chalant.
It would be sad to see him leave for next to nothing so I hope that we do recoup some of the investment.
He has undoubted class and it is unfortunate that at times his attitude on the pitch was described as non chalant.
It would be sad to see him leave for next to nothing so I hope that we do recoup some of the investment.
You are loving all this, aren't you?
.... so you didn't call Berbatov a failure... but you said "as a singing I still think it's been an expensive failure" ... ergo, Berbatov has been a failure as a signing.See where I'm struggling here?
Anyway, I haven't distorted a thing, here was your first post...
Key points being, Getting more for money, should be final peice of jigsaw, and money better spent on an out-and-out striker or a midfielder. Your follow up post barely retained any of the same themes.
He got the winner against Newcastle too as well as setting up Tevez for the only goal at Stoke.
He played a very important role that season after we returned from Japan. We were 8 points behind Liverpool with 2 games in hand. We won 11 consecutive games in the league and he was key in half of them. We won vs Stoke with Berbatov assisting the only goal late in the game. Then we won vs Boro with Berbatov scoring the only goal. Then we beat Chelsea with 3:0, Berbatov assisted for the first goal and scored the third. Then we won vs Wigan with 1:0, Berbatov played a key role for the attack with a beautiful pass. We won then vs Bolton away 1:0, Berbatov scored and we became top of the league. He scored the first goal for our win vs WBA away, scored the winner vs Newcastle in early March. By that time we were already with 10 points ahead of Liverpool. He contributed to our win vs Spurs with an assist and a goal after they scored two goals etc etc.
He didn't have a poor first season at all, that's a myth. Surely, it wasn't a great season but it wasn't a poor season either, let alone "a very poor season". He didn't play the role the fans expected from him, namely as a stiker. Fergie admiited that he played Berbatov too deeply. Nevertheless, he still scored as many winners in the league as Ronaldo and more than Rooney and Tevez. Berbatov and Rooney contributed the same amount of golas (goals + assits) in the league. So you could have said that we would have won the league 08/09 irrespective of Rooney's contribution.
Berbatov is walking by a school playground. Some kids are playing football. He stops and asks them, Can I join in? One kid replies, Sure, take a seat.I lay no blame at Berba's door, he plays no differently for us than he did for Spurs, he just hasn't fitted in with the way the boss wants to play......
all the trouble Fergie went to to sign him too.....
but, sh*t happens.
all the trouble Fergie went to to sign him too.....
but, sh*t happens.
I stand corrected, but my point still stands. His first season with us was very poor in my opinion and I'm sure if you looked back at the ratings threads that season it would reflect my opinion.
As an aside Hernandez' goals this season have earned us a point vs Newcastle, Liverpool and Chelsea and got us winners vs Swansea and Everton (as well as a couple to beat Ajax). But if someone were to ask me to assess his season as a whole I'd say it was a little underwhelming.
In my opinion we'd have won the league 08-09 irrespective of Berbatov's contribution.
Correct
It was a strange decision for sure.
No not at all, but I did not appreciate getting slagged off for suggesting this would happen a few months ago by that particular poster
How is it even relevant that Berbatov didn't choose the price paid for him when discussing how good/bad the signing was? In the end every signing is judged by two factors - the impact the signing had and total financial burden of the signing. You can't turn around and say 'oh the price isn't relevant'. If we had signed park for 50 million would he still be a good buy?
Err...yes. Its Fergie who decides who plays and who doesn't. The point is that Berbatov's contributions/performances have been equal to those of Hernandez and Welbeck's. Even Fergie second guessed himself at not having included Berba at Wembley last year, because in his view if he wanted a player to "nick a goal at the end", Owen would be him. That's obviously debatable, but given Berba's career best year he should have probably at least made the bench.
Nonsense. He was good enough to win the golden boot and he was good enough to play much more than he has in recent months. Fergie has just made a long term strategic choice to develop his two younger strikers, which is a Fergie decision.
Its all subjective in the end. Some will look at football contributions while others will indulge in fatuous FM muppetry when evaluating a player's contributions.
At the time he was seen as a brilliant signing but when you took Ronaldo and Tevez out of the equation he didn't really make the impact that we expected. During the season where Rooney scored loads he was starting to become a bench warmer and his pace wasn't right for those big games. If he can't be trusted well I didn't think he'd last long. Ferguson got a couple more years out of him but IMO he would have been a flop had he not had that top goal scorer year.
Good luck to him.
Good luck to him.
It is subjective but taking only one aspect (contributions or price) into consideration is foolish. 'Factuous FM' muppetry has nothing to do with it. It's like evaluating an investment because in the end that's what transfers are. If you're not going to give some sort of weightage to the amount of investment made, how do you know whether the return you got on it is worth a little or a lot? This is pure logic and has nothing to do with FM muppetry or anything else.
It's like saying I made 1000 pounds out of this investment but it doesn't make any difference whether I put in 10 pounds 100000000 pounds to earn that return. The only cases where that seems to make sense to me is if you're owned by a billionaire who has money to throw around and doesn't care if he spends 5 million or 25 million to get someone as good as Lescott.
Now you've shown you got what I meant by my first post and that you don't actually think I called Berbatov a failure because he's not a midfielder, no. To me whether a signing is a success or failure is determined by effectiveness measured against expectancy (cost, what role the player was brought into fulfill). Berbatov has performed well so I'm not saying he's useless or a failure as a player, I just don't personally think he has or will meet the expectations set for him. I think we would have been better off signing someone else.
edit: or what amolbhatia100's been saying.
I love Berba and hope he stays but, have to lay some blame on his feet for not forcing his way into the team some more. He's always talked about him not changing his way and ultimately that probably has lead to him slowly making his way out of first team reckoning.
I understand the type of player he is but, for the life of me I can't fathom why he wouldn't have at least changed some what to at least force himself back into the first team and then let his skill/ability keep him there.
If Fergie is sticking with Welbeck and Chicha simply because they are the future then it would be a surprise, maybe it's a factor, but, can't see him doing it at the risk of not winning games. He probably figures the 3 of them are close enough but, the other 2 do give a lot more work (outwardly) and are part of the future.
I understand the type of player he is but, for the life of me I can't fathom why he wouldn't have at least changed some what to at least force himself back into the first team and then let his skill/ability keep him there.
If Fergie is sticking with Welbeck and Chicha simply because they are the future then it would be a surprise, maybe it's a factor, but, can't see him doing it at the risk of not winning games. He probably figures the 3 of them are close enough but, the other 2 do give a lot more work (outwardly) and are part of the future.
Of course you have to take the expectancy into account when determining someones contribution. If we bought Messi for £200m we'd expect the best player in the world based on price and previous performances. If he then contributed exactly as Berbatov has the last 4 seasons he'd be a monumental failure.
Likewise if Obertan would have contributed exactly the same as Berbatov I'd see him as a real success.
Likewise if Obertan would have contributed exactly the same as Berbatov I'd see him as a real success.
How many more minutes has Hernandez played? A very significant amount Im sure. Berba's goal to minute ratio is far better.
And to marchi-91. Hernandez is far more shit and useless when he has a bad game than Berba.
I criticized him but I do feel sad for the poor fecker. To not even be on the bench today must be devastating. His goal scoring has been better than Welbeck and Hernandez this season.
Never been the best player off the bench which isn't best quality when you're lower down the pecking order.
You don't get to separate to two because you want to. Everyone on Earth is partially evaluated for how much they cost. If I'm making gobs of money at my job and not doing it well, I will be judged based on how much I make.
To say otherwise is willfully naive.
He's been the ultimate professional throughout all this. It's a shame we can't find a fit for him in our team, with all his talent.