Phil Jones will become the English Sergio Busquets, United will play a back 3 with Phil as sweeper.
Phil Jones
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True. OShea was great. But I feel sorry for someone consigned to that role. Mind you, I generally prefer not to waste sympathy on footballers.
You are right, we could use a new OShea.
You are right, we could use a new OShea.
We could use O' Shea, but Jones has got the potential to be a world class player if he can nail down one position, preferably not right back.
Or he might be the next Wes Brown... but with a better shot at becoming first choice at either CB or RB.
He can do a job in midfield, but I don't think that's his position in the long run.
Jones will mature into an awesome defender. Mark my words.
What do you see in Jones that makes him a player in the Busquets-mold? He currently has none of the attributes needed for that except a decent close control of the ball, and even that he would need to improve greatly to be likened to Busquets who is excellent under pressure.
I think that as a defensive player his best bet is to become a Vidic type, no nonsense defender with decent but not great ball control. I dont see Jones becoming a Ferdinand style defender. Smalling and Evans are more likely to fill his boots.
I definitely wouldnt mind him becoming a better John O'Shea at all either. I really appreciate versatile players, they are key to a good, injury-resilient squad.
Is anyone else bemused by the widespread disdain there is for Jones? I scanned the various fan forums after the England squad was announced and he was getting a lot of abuse. City fans even have a song mocking us for signing him. He's had a few iffy performances of late, but he's clearly the most talented English player in his age group after Wilshere. It's very odd.
I find it quite strange as well. He's only 20 and his form went down towards the end of the season. I know a lot of people on here weren't happy with the fact that he was starting ahead of Rafael.
His hype was going to ridiculous levels in the other direction early this season, so its only natural that when he has a few dodgy performances he will be judged unfairly negatively. Its so typical of the rating of young players. They are either shit or "The next [Insert great player whose ability said young player has 0.1% chance of ever reaching]" (In Jones' case, Edwards) until they have had a stable period of time over which it becomes apparent what level they are at. Jones hasnt had that yet, as hes been played all over the pitch with very mixed results, and reviews and assessments of him are as a result extremely mixed.
As for his future, I stand by what I've said in the past. He showed great promise in midfield when Carrick was in there with him, and I'd like to see him there more often. If Fergie had brought him on when Everton were swamping us at 4-2, we'd most likely be champions right now, for example.
Bizarre comparison, he has none of the Busquests attributes.
It's this sort of stuff I don't buy. Being a positionally suspect CB who is decent on the ball doesn't mean you will be a good defensive mid. People say it about Jones, and they've said it about Luiz too. I just don't get it. If you're a positionally suspect defender, a defensive mid role is the one place you should be. Positional sense there is arguably more important than it is at centre back.
So in 3 or 4 years time, assuming no more comings and goings in defense and reasonably predictable player development, who will be the defensive pairing? Jones and Smalling or Evans and Smalling?
Nice to have such strong options.
Nice to have such strong options.
Jones and Smalling. Evans has proven this season that he can go on to be a good defender, but I still expect Jones and Smalling to be much better defenders than him if they reach the level they're expected to.
I hope so. Evans will be a fantastic deputy to have. Though probably in that case we'll end up selling him to Everton or Sunderland in a few years when we have more promising youth emerging.
Fletcher wouldn't be good enough defensively to play CB but that doesn't mean he's not a fine defensive midfielder.
Perhaps a better comparison to what I'm imaging for him would be Javi Martinez, who plays as a center back but dribbles the ball out into midfield to join the attack when they have the ball.
Well it does because he's not a defensive midfielder.
Evans is way to good for Everton, I think you're underrating him
Here. SAF seems to think he's world class.
Interestng to see how Jones and Varanes careers develop.
Deepest midfielder, most defensive minded midfielder, whatever you want to call it. When we played a 3 man midfield when Fletcher was at his best I don't think it's wrong to say he played a defensive midfield role. I have to use some term to differentiate the role, I'd gladly hear a better way to denote it.
When I image Jones in a similar role as Fletcher in a midfield 3 it's mostly for our biggest games. Fletcher was pretty good in a 2 man midfield, but for my money he was best as the deepest of a 3 man midfield. He'd keep play ticking along with quick if short passing and run down anyone who made it through his fellow midfielders. He could drop deep when needed and join the attack when needed.
Mostly I like that such a position would take advantage of Jones's defensive solidity as well as his passing and ability to make attacking runs.
Anyway, just a theory. But if Capello sees him as being like Baresi and Hierro for his ability to play midfield and center back it can't be that crazy. I wouldn't have dared suggest it if so many teams weren't playing a sweeper with 3 at the back or having one of two CBs that can join the attack. I have to say I'm a fan of the old WW and WM formations and using sweepers like back in the 50s or a Beckenbauer style libero.
I do. He's never been a defensive midfielder.
The difference though is that Fletcher's good enough on the ball to play as a defensive mid. Jones, while decent on the ball, isn't as good as people like to say he is technically. He will be a lot better than Fletcher defensively, but I doubt he'll ever be a good enough player on the ball to regularly play on our midfield. People say he has good ability with the ball at his feet, but he really isn't brilliant. Better than the average defender with it, yes, but the difference between him and most players is that he just runs with it a lot more.
Fletcher never played deepest of a 3, well he has but not when we've had our best midfield 3 over the last few years which was carrick fletcher and ando. Carrick was the holder, fletcher was box to box and ando was the attacker.
I don't think jones problem is technical, although he clearly hasn't shown the on the ball ability of our other midfielders, but tactical. To play fletchers role in the 3 takes more than energy, you need a lot of tactical awareness, to know when to press, how to press and when to break forward etc. when jones has played there for us or England he just ends up in attacking midfield because he doesn't know what he's doing.
Similarly carricks role in a 3 is all about tactical awareness especially of like him you're an interceptor as opposed to a tackler.
I think jones could grow in to those roles, part of then is experience but having not trained there it's tough and also he'd be on the ball a lot more then he's used to. His energy and power could be good then though.
I don't think jones problem is technical, although he clearly hasn't shown the on the ball ability of our other midfielders, but tactical. To play fletchers role in the 3 takes more than energy, you need a lot of tactical awareness, to know when to press, how to press and when to break forward etc. when jones has played there for us or England he just ends up in attacking midfield because he doesn't know what he's doing.
Similarly carricks role in a 3 is all about tactical awareness especially of like him you're an interceptor as opposed to a tackler.
I think jones could grow in to those roles, part of then is experience but having not trained there it's tough and also he'd be on the ball a lot more then he's used to. His energy and power could be good then though.
Like Wes "Best Defender in England" Brown. Who went to Sunderland.
Simon, wes could have been one of the top defenders in england and I'll say for a period of time was. Injuries changed all that though
QFT.
Brown was an exceptional defender and showed his ability in 2008. It was only injuries that held him back firstly during his development and then finally when he made it as a top player. He was 31 when we let him go, 31 year olds who have had a career plagued with injuries tend not to be players you can rely on.
He is 20 years old, remember Fletcher when he was that age? Jones is a far better player than when Fletch was 20. Most people had wrote Fletcher off and would never have predicted that he developed into the player he is today, which is credit to him.
Fletcher is definitely better than Jones on the ball now, but if Jones ended up playing in central midfield regularly, which is where I think he should, I have no doubt he would end up better than Fletcher technically. By the end of next season I don't think there will be much difference between the two. You say he 'really isnt brilliant' on the ball, but what do you expect at that age from a player who is primarily defensive? Give him two or three years and he will improve dramatically, along with Wilshere he is the most talented English player in years, his potential is far higher than Fletcher's ever was.
True, Wes was a great player. My only point isn't to undermine him, or Evans, simply to say if Jones and Smalling come on as expected, and if we have more youth coming through at that time, Evans might have his opportunities limited. Sunderland and Everton being the clubs we've sold a few people to in recent years.
Evans is already an excellent defender, and was a better centre back than Jones at Jones' age. Jones has a hell of a task getting in ahead of him, in my opinion. It's not inconceivable that he'll improve considerably, but then you could say the same thing about Evans also.
We'll just have to see what happens. That last game he played against Sunderland...he looked a lot more able on the ball than he had for most of the season. He was more composed and more aware of the players around him. I really don't see the Busquets comparison (I still get the impression people still don't understand just how good Busquets is) but, if he improves enough with the ball at his feet, he could turn out to be more of an Essien. He has the same versatility, directness and power, and has many years to develop the mental and technical attributes that would put him in that bracket and category of footballer.
Boss got some pretty stupidly ostracised for that 'attack the space' thread on here a while back, but what he was saying applies to Jones. He's not got great dribbling skill, nor has he got absolutely outstanding pace (he is fast though, no doubt, just not Walcott/Ronaldo fast), but he seems to have a knack when it comes to powering through players as if they're not really there. There's something mentally spot with Jones here, and we could do with a player like that in the centre of the pitch.
Saying that, I often thought Valencia in centre mid would've been worth a try for this reason. We seem to have played every player under the sun there with the exception of Valencia, so I still can't get to grips with why we've not tried this.
Anyone who watched Jones and Smalling play as a partnership at the Under 21 championships could not have failed to see how potentially good those 2 will be as center backs in the future.
Im going to stick my neck out and say that Evans will be ahead Jones in the pecking order for CB in the foreseeable future. Jones will probably have to do with an O'Shea role in the squad. Nothing wrong with that at all, mind.
I think the defence was one of the only positives to come out of that tournament for England due to Pearce's completely ridiculous management. Smalling, Jones and Walker were all great. Bertrand was decent.
Welbeck was as good as he could've been and Sturridge was alright (selfish as feck, though), but the midfield was a joke. Henderson, Cleverley on the right of midfield, Sinclair and fecking Mancienne...what the feck are these England managers on?
It's a hex I tell ya
I can see him being a future captain still
Exactly. People who don't know about their pairing and want some insight. Go and watch them in the Euro21's from the start of this season.
You'll also see how wank Pearce is as well!
Definitely. The comparison to O'Shea is no more than they can both play a few positions, Jones is far more talented. It's not a great comparison to be honest.
That is assuming that suspect in cb would make you suspect positionally in dm role which is not the case.
In fact sometimes being suspect in cb can be because you are in a position a dm should be in.
Also the attributes players like jones and luis show are why people think the would make great dms, not just positioning.
Both are strong, quick, good on the ball for defenders and can pass. They get in and around the opposition and I think both would make excellent combative dm's like Pepe at real madrid, another good example.
This is basically what I feel. Evans came right back to form in the last half of last season and looks like a long term fit in the position. Smalling is also a definite first-choice once Ferdinand and Vidic are out to pasture. Jones is more versatile and will fill in for injuries and in other positions too.
How often has Pepe played in midfield for Real Madrid? Once? Twice?
Central midfield is a very difficult role to play well. Takes a lot more than being quick and comfortable on the ball. Rio Ferdinand has always been lightening quick, extremely comfortable on the ball and probably has the best positional sense of any central midfielder to play under Fergie. Total disaster in midfield.
Central midfield is a very difficult role to play well. Takes a lot more than being quick and comfortable on the ball. Rio Ferdinand has always been lightening quick, extremely comfortable on the ball and probably has the best positional sense of any central midfielder to play under Fergie. Total disaster in midfield.
I'm mostly thinking about our 2008-9 season, when Wenger accused Fletcher of destroying football with his negative tactics [read excellent tackling and pressing]. My recollection is that Carrick was asked to go forward more often and Fletcher was the one who chased down stray runner, like the tackle on Fabergas that caused him to miss the CL final that season. Do most of you agree with Ash that Carrick was playing deeper during that time?
I don't think Fletcher was asked to play a purely defensive roll, I guess my thinking is that at least one of a midfield 3 has to be more defensive minded for it to work, but I can see how that doesn't mean they're a defensive midfielder. I was probably using the term more in the sense that he's stronger in defense than attack and thus that is what shines through in his play, thus he seems to be defensive minded.
Perhaps then I should say that I think Jones could play as a central midfielder whose defensive skills would help to keep our defensive shape and solidity while being strong enough in attack to keep play moving quickly and get the ball to the better passes when possible.
His engine reminds me a bit of Hargreaves before he went down, he looks like he could run attackers into corners all day.