You have absolutely no idea what he was offered and when -------- pointless speculation with no knowledge.
Paul Pogba
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You have absolutely no idea what he was offered and when -------- pointless speculation with no knowledge.
How can you talk about crap when you clearly rate your own opinion? Sir Alex has several meetings with Rossi...that's what he said, for someone you doubt would have made it.
The fact is we have our policy, we don't have to bring kids though quickly and we will never know if he would have been good at United (pogba) but Sir Alex seems to think so.
Got a source for that? I can't see why the club would suddenly make that a new policy. There was a myth doing the rounds that the Glazers insisted all players only get a new contract when they're down to their last 12 months but that's been blown out of the water by Hernandez - amongst others - signing a new contract with years left on his original one.
Re Pogba, I'm fairly sure his current contract still has at least 6 months left to run. Looking back at this thread, Fergie was telling the press we'd made an offer to him 6 months ago (presumably to up the ante). I'd be astonished if the negotiations hadn't been going on for a good while before that.
Pogba is getting that money because that is his valuation in the market as that's how good football people demanding his services think he is. Do you think Juve's youth players (who are probably payed less than ours) are now going to go to the manager's office and say "hey, me too, we're the same age, not fair"? Players, regardless of their age, are payed their market valuation in general, and that depends on their produce on the pitch - the idea that we have some rigid pay structure for all our youth because of some unique principles we have and that it can be influenced by any one youth player is a myth in my opinion.
Now, it is true that Pogba is getting much more than what he would have got in Giggs' time or even C Ronaldo's time as a talented youngster, but that's because prices increase for everything over time in the world economy, and they've especially done so in football in recent years - for every one, not just youth players.
Well, yeah, that's my point. If they impress enough on the pitch that they have other clubs running after them offering them 1 million pounds a year because they value them that highly, then they'll naturally ask for parity. That's how any market works. But that's only happened for Pogba and it wouldn't happen to our other youth players just because they're same age as Pogba and played in the same youth team as him.
I've no idea what Juve's wage structure is for young players but you can bet your arse Pogba's wage will be taken into account when it comes to future negotiations. That's the way these things work.
If the reason he's leaving is because Juventus have a different wage structure for youth players than we do, we'll have to live with that. Some teams (e.g. Arsenal) give very inflated wages very early in a young player's career. Others (e.g. us) expect them to wait until they're a bit more established. The latter strategy is what allows us to pay our best players that bit more than Arsenal can pay theirs. It's worked well for us over the years. Madness to change it for just one player.
Anyway, has anyone confirmed that the wages he's being offered at Juventus are higher than he could get if he stayed put?
If the reason he's leaving is because Juventus have a different wage structure for youth players than we do, we'll have to live with that. Some teams (e.g. Arsenal) give very inflated wages very early in a young player's career. Others (e.g. us) expect them to wait until they're a bit more established. The latter strategy is what allows us to pay our best players that bit more than Arsenal can pay theirs. It's worked well for us over the years. Madness to change it for just one player.
Anyway, has anyone confirmed that the wages he's being offered at Juventus are higher than he could get if he stayed put?
Good, sensible post.
Most of the articles I read suggested that Juve and United are offering the same pay package.
Apparently you live in the real world and not the "gotta get mine" world of professional sports. I bow to your supreme knowledge of sports finance.
Get the violin out...
Tell you what, you can write Mr. Gill and Sir Alex Ferguson expressing your sentiment. Perhaps the club will respond.
How many other clubs are in for Pogba? By all accounts it seems that it's just juventus. So I don't see where market value comes in. No one else is seemingly offering him anything. One club offering more doesn't equate to us not paying the market rate.
Secondly going back to people saying ronaldo smalling etc weren't established there's a massive difference. Firstly ronaldo had shown himself to be a talent in a good league and showed enough that fergie rightly through him straight into the first team.
When we signed smalling he might not have played many games but he showed enough that he could cut it at this level and again once he came he went straight in to the team.
Pogba hasn't. This season he's not shown anything to suggest he could play a big part next season imo and as such we've likely offered him a wave reflecting that. Again if we start giving in to a relative no body and someone who might fufil his potential then that will set a bad precedent.
If Pogba has gone for money then that's his prerogative. I have no qualms with us not matching any offer juventus have him. If he's gone because of a lack of opportunity then again that's his prerogative but I would say that fergie is proven in terms of bringing through your players. If you're good enough then he'll play you and if he'a gone for those reasons then I wouldn't be surprised if he'a not as good as many seem to think.
Secondly going back to people saying ronaldo smalling etc weren't established there's a massive difference. Firstly ronaldo had shown himself to be a talent in a good league and showed enough that fergie rightly through him straight into the first team.
When we signed smalling he might not have played many games but he showed enough that he could cut it at this level and again once he came he went straight in to the team.
Pogba hasn't. This season he's not shown anything to suggest he could play a big part next season imo and as such we've likely offered him a wave reflecting that. Again if we start giving in to a relative no body and someone who might fufil his potential then that will set a bad precedent.
If Pogba has gone for money then that's his prerogative. I have no qualms with us not matching any offer juventus have him. If he's gone because of a lack of opportunity then again that's his prerogative but I would say that fergie is proven in terms of bringing through your players. If you're good enough then he'll play you and if he'a gone for those reasons then I wouldn't be surprised if he'a not as good as many seem to think.
Very hard to swallow your second paragraph. How would you know that kind of detail about our wage strategy vs Arsenal's and what its implications are? You seem to have just made that up based on what is even a false understanding of "wage structure". Oh well.
So he's gone? Good luck to him. In my opinion he would have been better off staying, although I'm sure he has considered his options and has made the decision he thinks is best.
I've heard arsenal have a similar system to that as well. Guess it's not conclusive but I think it's just one of those things that most reporters etc know. Am sure they've discussed it on Sunday supplement before.
To be fair to Pogue thats my understanding of the way our wage structure is.
Well I don't share the same view of how you guys think it works.
what?
How would you know that kind of detail about our wage strategy vs Arsenal's and what its implications are?
In answer to how I know. It's what I've read. From a number of different sources.
Would have to agree. It's why people like Denilson and Bendtner are hard to get rid of. They were paid good wages when they were younger for them to stay at/sign to Arsenal.
I haven't said any esoteric detail about our wage strategy... all I've done is apply basic supply and demand laws to the Pogba wage situation in particular, and wages of footballers in general. That's how any market in a capitalist economy works.
You on the other hand went into the kind of detail I'm struggling to understand how you got a hold of. I highly doubt there's any public information that would give you that kind of verified inside information about our youth "wage strategy" vs Arsenal's so that you could construct the kind of concise financial analysis you did. You sounded like a former United and Arsenal accountant. Its more likely you just made up a detailed narrative based on how you think we handle our wage situation compared to Arsenal.
can't wait until this thread gets locked.
Or, alternatively, what I've said is based on information I've come across that's in the public domain. Information that, presumably, Lawman is also aware of. Bearing in mind his recent outing as an ex-professional footballer I think you'd be foolish to suddenly decide your opinion carries more weight.
But hey, you're not only an expert on market forces as they apply to contract negotiations for promising young footballers, you can also read our minds. Well done.
Thanks for the compliment bro. I advise you not to let any public stuff you read give you the confidence and audacity to make statements as if you are privy to internal information like both Arsenal and United's financial and business strategy. I would bet my left nut if Gill read that financial analysis of yours in all its majesty he'd have a good laugh.
I'm not your "bro" (what are you? 12?) and everything I've said is in the public domain and not exactly difficult to verify either. The wages paid at Arsenal and United aren't exactly a top secret business strategy for feck's sake. Carry on with your speculation about exactly what other posters do or don't know about the topics they're discussing if you want. Of course you'd be a better poster if you actually had anything interesting to say on the topic yourself.
I like the way you act like you have a monopoly on reason. Just because someone disagrees with you legitimately does not mean they have nothing interesting to say and are 12 years old. Okay, I'm sorry for calling you bro... its just part of the way I talk. Calm down. And, no, I still don't think United's business and financial strategy the way you presented it is in the public domain. You have no idea what you are talking about in that respect. So I suggest you take the advice I gave you.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opi...n-van-Persie-by-John-Cross-article868943.html
Now obviously you can't believe everything you read and I'm sure the numbers aren't completely accurate but from most the reports I've heard Arsenal tend to give big money to their young players. Now you can argue about this on principle as no one has confirmed this but sometimes you can take these stories for truth, journalists may make stuff up but sometimes they also know a lot more then they should as we all now know. Also as mentioned in this article, Arsenal have a big wage bill and have for years. Considering they've not had that many superstars recently and in general have had a young squad you can assume that unless a select few are getting an insane wage, in which case the likes of RVP wouldn't need to ask for more, that on average the first team is getting quite a high salary given their respective stature in football. It might not be 90K or anything but you can assume it's high.
Now obviously you can't believe everything you read and I'm sure the numbers aren't completely accurate but from most the reports I've heard Arsenal tend to give big money to their young players. Now you can argue about this on principle as no one has confirmed this but sometimes you can take these stories for truth, journalists may make stuff up but sometimes they also know a lot more then they should as we all now know. Also as mentioned in this article, Arsenal have a big wage bill and have for years. Considering they've not had that many superstars recently and in general have had a young squad you can assume that unless a select few are getting an insane wage, in which case the likes of RVP wouldn't need to ask for more, that on average the first team is getting quite a high salary given their respective stature in football. It might not be 90K or anything but you can assume it's high.
He's right on the public factual stuff: Arsenal obviously pay their younger players more because their bunch of young players tend to be key first teamers that keep them in the top four. The older more established ones that would command very high wages tend to leave in search of silverware despite their best efforts to keep them. If Fabregas and/or Nasri had decided to stay, and/or if RVP decides to stay, wouldn't their "wage structure" be the same as United's now? It would, they'd have given them around their market wages. That's why I argue that treating "wage structure" as some sort of rigid thing is a false premise. What's even worse is using those false premises to comment on "internal wage strategy" and how it impacts a clubs finances without being privy to the necessary internal information. Because how can you say Arsenal's strategy is to pay a bunch of youngsters about the same relatively high wages, with no high-earning standouts, when they tried to keep Fabregas, tried to keep Nasri, and are trying to keep RVP?
But that's their problem. They've given young unproven players big pay and as a result given them less room to manoeuvre with the actual stars as a result. Fabregas was never about money but with nasri would they have offered him close to what city did? Probably not and although we probably wouldn't either we could offer him and our star players more because we don't have loads of unproven players eating the budget. They can't sell these players either because of their big pay. The other aspect of the article we can only guess at with regards to our players being more hungry as a result of less pay but I wouldn't be surprised if its true.
Either way with our method we might lose a few good prospects but we'll always adapt. When we tried to get mikel we obviously believed he'd be a top player, mourinho called him gold, and yet despite us missing out on him have we missed him? No, and whilst he's proven to be a good player he'a not the top player some thought he would be. We got carrick and haven't really looked back since. There's always another player.
Either way with our method we might lose a few good prospects but we'll always adapt. When we tried to get mikel we obviously believed he'd be a top player, mourinho called him gold, and yet despite us missing out on him have we missed him? No, and whilst he's proven to be a good player he'a not the top player some thought he would be. We got carrick and haven't really looked back since. There's always another player.
Pogba put out on loan?
Paul Pogba hasn't officially been unveiled by Juventus but his failure to sign a new contract with Manchester United suggests he's off to the Turin club shortly, the photo of him holding a Juve scarf seeming a matter of when and not if.
The reasons originally behind the move were said to be playing time and a desire to play for the Serie A club, who have dubbed him the new Patrick Vieira, and not simply trying to get more money than was on offer in Manchester.
He thought he'd get more first team chances with Juventus, having become frustrated at what he saw as a lack of opportunity at Old Trafford.
The latest news from Tuttosport may show that to be folly. The Italian newspaper, who were first with the Pogba to Juventus link over a year ago, say that the 19 year old could be used as bait to lure Udinese midfielder Kwadwo Asamoah. TMW also bring this into the equation and say Udinese would be keen to get the much hyped youngster for a year in return for the Ghana international.
Manchester United have been linked with Asamoah, 23, but it appeared to be mainly agent talk. TMW have also spoken to his agent, Claudio Vagheggi, and it seems he has a touch of the Eden Hazards "For Asamoah, at this moment, there is a manifest interest of many clubs, including Juventus. For now there is nothing concrete.
"As far as we are concerned there are no preferences or special circumstances. We will listen to all that, eventually, will be proposed. We're talking about a very important player, so no wonder (there is interest)."
On the Paul Pogba front, an immediate loan to Udinese would make a mockery of the reasons put forward for leaving Manchester United. If he wanted a loan he could get that with his current club.
Should Juventus get Kwadwo Asamoah without having to send Pogba on loan then it just provides further competition for the young Frenchman in a strong Juventus squad.
Paul Pogba hasn't officially been unveiled by Juventus but his failure to sign a new contract with Manchester United suggests he's off to the Turin club shortly, the photo of him holding a Juve scarf seeming a matter of when and not if.
The reasons originally behind the move were said to be playing time and a desire to play for the Serie A club, who have dubbed him the new Patrick Vieira, and not simply trying to get more money than was on offer in Manchester.
He thought he'd get more first team chances with Juventus, having become frustrated at what he saw as a lack of opportunity at Old Trafford.
The latest news from Tuttosport may show that to be folly. The Italian newspaper, who were first with the Pogba to Juventus link over a year ago, say that the 19 year old could be used as bait to lure Udinese midfielder Kwadwo Asamoah. TMW also bring this into the equation and say Udinese would be keen to get the much hyped youngster for a year in return for the Ghana international.
Manchester United have been linked with Asamoah, 23, but it appeared to be mainly agent talk. TMW have also spoken to his agent, Claudio Vagheggi, and it seems he has a touch of the Eden Hazards "For Asamoah, at this moment, there is a manifest interest of many clubs, including Juventus. For now there is nothing concrete.
"As far as we are concerned there are no preferences or special circumstances. We will listen to all that, eventually, will be proposed. We're talking about a very important player, so no wonder (there is interest)."
On the Paul Pogba front, an immediate loan to Udinese would make a mockery of the reasons put forward for leaving Manchester United. If he wanted a loan he could get that with his current club.
Should Juventus get Kwadwo Asamoah without having to send Pogba on loan then it just provides further competition for the young Frenchman in a strong Juventus squad.
This whole Pogba problemo gets more bizarre as it goes along.
If they use pogba to get asamoah, they would be rubbing salt in our wounds.
United screwed by agent shocker...
He won't get more chances there that's for sure. They've Vidal, Pirlo and Marchisio there. They'll probably sign the Verrati(the new Pirlo) apparently, and are now also after Asamoah. So much for leaving for first team opportunities then.
the agent has just controlled Pogba to the maximum.
Personally the boy has been made a fool of and wont ever sucseed in this way. I feel sorry for him.
Personally the boy has been made a fool of and wont ever sucseed in this way. I feel sorry for him.
What a strange idea, probably nonsense, I thought Pogba wasn't even Juve's yet, they'd be idiots to let it be known that they plan to loan him out!
I remember what happened to the original Vieira, who landed in Milan as a hot shot youngster from France. He was on his bike to Arsenal before long.
Not sure what the great surprise is. There's little chance of Pogba's progressing into a first team regular at a top Italian club without a loan somewhere first.
Not sure what the great surprise is. There's little chance of Pogba's progressing into a first team regular at a top Italian club without a loan somewhere first.
I love how someone based in the states is trying to educate us about the European transfer market
For the record, i believe what you've written is complete nonsense EB100
As for this thread, the sum of all parts is greater than one 18 year old with an inflated opinion of himself
For the record, i believe what you've written is complete nonsense EB100
As for this thread, the sum of all parts is greater than one 18 year old with an inflated opinion of himself
This Patrick Vieira thing won't go away will it?
French, black, good physique = Next Patrick Vieira
French, black, good physique = Next Patrick Vieira
could one go as far as saying the comparison is mildly racist?
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