Paul Pogba

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I'm always right said:
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Fair play to him, we nicked him from another club so we just got a little taste of our own medicine. He'll be a top player so it's a shame but the club are right not to pay youth prospects over the top. Barca let Fabregas go for the same reasons and he was much more talented at a younger age, same with Pique. We may end up buying Pogba back for big money in 6 years but the club must keep to it's principles with young player contracts.
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I really doubt it was money, at least I hope not. If it was, then that is not a good sign. I don't buy that young player contract principles stuff... players should be valued according to their talent and ability, not their age, and I think that's what we've always done. If we felt Pogba was a special promising youngster, and given our CM issues, then surely we would have been able to match freaking Juventus? I'm leaning towards SAF just not thinking he was worth the investment and opting for more advanced talent. If we really wanted him and just couldn't match Juve, then we're broker than I thought.

And I don't think Fabregas and Pique left for money and even if they did, it was because Barcelona had other better youngsters they were willing to pay up for and keep for the first team. I doubt Arsenal and United gave those players money Barca couldn't have if they wanted to.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
so we couldn't match €1 million (£800,000) per season? seriously?
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It's not the club couldn't I would be inclined to say the club wouldn't. If every youth player starts getting paid 500k or more soon enough the club will be spending damn near 25m+ per year in youth wages alone. That's insane.

It would also potentially trigger this player asking for more than that player based on playing time, goals, first team appearances, etc. When does the club draw the line?
 
MrMarcello said:
It's not the club couldn't I would be inclined to say the club wouldn't. If every youth player starts getting paid 500k or more soon enough the club will be spending damn near 25m+ per year in youth wages alone. That's insane.

It would also potentially trigger this player asking for more than that player based on playing time, goals, first team appearances, etc. When does the club draw the line?
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I have no idea where some of you get this silly notion that paying a talented player like Pogba his market price - as determined by the demand for his services - automatically means every other youngster on our pay roll could ask for the same wages or even a rise just because they are the same age.
 
EB100 said:
I have no idea where some of you get this silly notion that paying a talented player like Pogba his market price - as determined by the demand for his services - automatically means every other youngster on our pay roll could ask for the same wages or even a rise just because they are the same age.
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It's not about every other youngster asking for the same wages but it's really not difficult to see how breaking our wage structure for one talented yet unproven youngster could inflate youth wages across the board.
 
EB100 said:
I have no idea where some of you get this silly notion that paying a talented player like Pogba his market price - as determined by the demand for his services - automatically means every other youngster on our pay roll could ask for the same wages or even a rise just because they are the same age.
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Eh? That makes no sense. Of course anybody who's performed as well as him at the reserve level would ask parity.
 
There is no way we can break our wage structure for an unproven potential talent. At the end of the day I'd prefer us to not win anything for a number of years that give in to the increasing pandering, threats and blackmailing of these football agents. As Ferguson has said, dealing with the transfer market is not about which club a player really wants to play for, its about how much his agent can get by whoring his client around as many big clubs as possible who will pay stupied signing on fees and wages.

That is why Ferguson says there is no value in the market, fees have been totally exaggerated by billionaires buying clubs as hobbies and toy things.

I so don't want united to go down that route. (not that we can at the moment of course).I'd rather players sweat for the club they play for rather than sweat for the agent. If the Sultan of Brunei bought united tomorrow I for one would feel really depressed and disappointed.

There is nothing more wonderful and fulfilling than getting a young player and developing into a world class one or at least one that can play at the top level
 
MrMarcello said:
It's not the club couldn't I would be inclined to say the club wouldn't. If every youth player starts getting paid 500k or more soon enough the club will be spending damn near 25m+ per year in youth wages alone. That's insane.

It would also potentially trigger this player asking for more than that player based on playing time, goals, first team appearances, etc. When does the club draw the line?
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OK then, in that case lets just let our best young talents go to other clubs that are wiling to do just that.
 
togg said:
There is no way we can break our wage structure for an unproven potential talent. At the end of the day I'd prefer us to not win anything for a number of years that give in to the increasing pandering, threats and blackmailing of these football agents. As Ferguson has said, dealing with the transfer market is not about which club a player really wants to play for, its about how much his agent can get by whoring his client around as many big clubs as possible who will pay stupied signing on fees and wages.

That is why Ferguson says there is no value in the market, fees have been totally exaggerated by billionaires buying clubs as hobbies and toy things.

I so don't want united to go down that route. (not that we can at the moment of course).I'd rather players sweat for the club they play for rather than sweat for the agent. If the Sultan of Brunei bought united tomorrow I for one would feel really depressed and disappointed.

There is nothing more wonderful and fulfilling than getting a young player and developing into a world class one or at least one that can play at the top level
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when we signed ronaldo he was unproven and a potential talent. i bet he was on more than £20k
 
ben_foster said:
when we signed ronaldo he was unproven and a potential talent. i bet he was on more than £20k
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also...lets flip this...lets say he was a juve and we kncked him off them. we would happily give him more than £20k!!
 
Has anyone pointed out that we have rarely benefited from signing young foreign players and bringing them through?

Rafael and Fabio perhaps, everyone else fecks off. Manchester lads please United, put more money into it and improve this area.
 
Number7 said:
Rafael and Fabio perhaps, everyone else fecks off. Manchester lads please United, put more money into it and improve this area.
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Pique, Rossi, Pogba, Zieler... We've had some good talent. Annoying we can't get more out of them, football wise, but you just can't restrict yourself to one area.
 
Amir said:
Pique, Rossi, Pogba, Zieler... We've had some good talent. Annoying we can't get more out of them, football wise, but you just can't restrict yourself to one area.
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There's been no benefit in having those players. Money made from sales has been little and probably doesn't justify training and wage cost...in summary their time at United has been a complete waste of time and resources and our famed youth system has actually achieved very little for us as a result.

I can't believe how the excitement of our youth cup team last year has just evaporated.
 
Yeah, no matter how you look at it, losing Morrison and Pogba in a single season is the most enormous kick in the balls. I have watched so fecking much of these two, and got so excited seeing them progress through academy and reserves, and now it looks like neither of them are going to make it here in any capacity at all. It's an enormous shame - we don't know the circumstances yet, so we can't really judge the club, but there are few, if any positives to be taken from these two leaving (assuming Pogba does leave).

Still, lots more to look forward with Januzaj and Daehli, ey? :nervous:
 
Number7 said:
There's been no benefit in having those players. Money made from sales has been little and probably doesn't justify training and wage cost...in summary their time at United has been a complete waste of time and resources and our famed youth system has actually achieved very little for us as a result.

I can't believe how the excitement of our youth cup team last year has just evaporated.
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That's not true at all. The 4 million we got from Pique alone would have comfortably covered the cost of training and wages for the lot of them, throughout their time at United.
 
pocco said:
He's not wrong really. Ronaldo was far from great when he started out here and I remember many supporters giving him a lot of abuse and saying he's no good etc. Though I doubt anyone admits that now.
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Ronaldo cost us 12 million quid (iirc). Would we have paid that for someone who hadn't started a single league game for his club?

Claiming that Ronaldo arrived at United no more proven than Pogba is right now is one of the most stupid comments in this thread.
 
Number7 said:
Has anyone pointed out that we have rarely benefited from signing young foreign players and bringing them through?

Rafael and Fabio perhaps, everyone else fecks off. Manchester lads please United, put more money into it and improve this area.
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I did point this out in the Angelo Henriquez thread. A lot were getting very excited about him so I pointed out that we rarely do well with these types of youngsters regadless of how talented they are. Only Rafael has really staked a genuine claim for a first team starting spot so far.

Regardless, most in the thread thought that I was talking shite.
 
In reality we rarely do well with any type of youngster. How many academy products have established themselves as first team regulars in the last 10 years? How many have passed through the academy over that same period of time?

It so happens that those few who have are all from the UK but so are the vast majority of youngsters on our books. Stands to reason we're much more likely to see a kid from the UK come through into the first team.

The big difference for me about the young foreigners (especially in the age of the internet) is that people get much more excited about them than they do British and Irish youngsters so there's much more drama queenery if/when they eventually leave. IMO the most talented youngster we've had at the club since the class of '92 is Ravel Morrison. He's a mancunian, born and bred. Still didn't work out for him though.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
In reality we rarely do well with any type of youngster. How many academy products have established themselves as first team regulars in the last 10 years? How many have passed through the academy over that same period of time?

It so happens that those few who have are all from the UK but so are the vast majority of youngsters on our books. Stands to reason we're much more likely to see a kid from the UK come through into the first team.

The big difference for me about the young foreigners (especially in the age of the internet) is that people get much more excited about them than they do British and Irish youngsters so there's much more drama queenery if/when they eventually leave.
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How many British academy players have we let go in recent years that went on to be as good as Rossi or Pique?

BTW, the David Platt example is not credible.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
How many British academy players have we let go in recent years that went on to be as good as Rossi or Pique?

BTW, the David Platt example is not credible.
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We've let plenty of players go who have had/are having excellent careers at Premier League clubs. Whether Rossi or Pique would have done as well in England as they did in Spain remains to be seen. They both have a style of play that might not be well suited to the fast-paced and/or physical nature of PL football. I actually struggle to see Pique, in particular, doing as well as he has done at any other club than the one he currently plays for.

I guess that raises the question of whether continental youngsters are less likely than homegrown players to settle/adapt to English football but that would be a crazy reason to stop recruiting them. Not when so many of the league's best players come from outside the UK.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Ronaldo cost us 12 million quid (iirc). Would we have paid that for someone who hadn't started a single league game for his club?

Claiming that Ronaldo arrived at United no more proven than Pogba is right now is one of the most stupid comments in this thread.
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We paid £7 million for Bebe based on two preseason games. Not far off.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We've let plenty of players go who have had/are having excellent careers at Premier League clubs. Whether Rossi or Pique would have done as well in England as they did in Spain remains to be seen. They both have a style of play that might not be well suited to the fast-paced and/or physical nature of PL football. I actually struggle to see Pique, in particular, doing as well as he has done at any other club than the one he currently plays for.

I guess that raises the question of whether continental youngsters are less likely than homegrown players to settle/adapt to English football but that would be a crazy reason to stop recruiting them. Not when so many of the league's best players come from outside the UK.
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There are clearly more variables that come into to play with foreign youngsters that affect if they can become a United first teamer or not. Culture, footballing style, home sickness and lack of connection to the club are all things that are largely not an issue with homegrown talent.

My point was, no matter how talented the player don't bank on seeing them in the first team.

I am holding out hope for Perreira though as he already chose us over every major club in Europe and he is the kind of player that is a dream to watch.
 
Those who have managed the step from youth to First team to an extent the later years (welbeck, cleverley, evans) have all gone through important loan spells. Coming through that way perhaps require an extra measure of attachment to the club and maturity to work out well. I question wether it's possible anymore to develop enough in the reserves. If not, most players will develop best in their own club playing a lot of games. Buy them when they are ready to fill squad roles sufficiently, and concentrate on more locally established players in the youth set up, I say.
 
Grande said:
Those who have managed the step from youth to First team to an extent the later years (welbeck, cleverley, evans) have all gone through important loan spells. Coming through that way perhaps require an extra measure of attachment to the club and maturity to work out well. I question wether it's possible anymore to develop enough in the reserves. If not, most players will develop best in their own club playing a lot of games. Buy them when they are ready to fill squad roles sufficiently, and concentrate on more locally established players in the youth set up, I say.
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Zoran Tosic had a very successful load spell for Koln in the German League, scoring a few sensational goals and being credited with keeping them in Bundesliga that season. When he returned to United he was promptly sold without making a first team appearance.
 
pocco said:
I'm answering your fecking question, you didn't mention wages, only the £12 million we payed for Ronaldo. You're the numpty that brought transfer fees into it.
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How's about you follow the discussion in the fecking thread?

You first mentioned Ronaldo when someone mentioned him as someone who was "unproven" yet would have been offered a salary >£20k/week. Your point was along the lines that he took a while for fans to warm to him, so he actually was unproven (or somesuch, I'm not really sure what your point was tbh)

I pointed out that we wouldn't have paid that much money for someone who was unproven, after eyepopper had already pointed out he'd played a full season for his club before we signed him.

Soooooo... Ronaldo was not "unproven" when we signed him. He was an already an accomplished player with a lot of first-team experience under his belt. Hence he was probably offered a much higher wage than we would offer to Pogba (who hasn't started a single league game for United. Not one.)

Bebe's a complete red herring. He came with zero experience and was no doubt offered a salary to reflect that. We're talking about wages after all. The transfer fee paid for Bebe is neither here nor there. Although it's worth pointing out that even though we paid what everyone agrees is a stupid amount of money for him, it's still only just half of what we paid for Ronaldo.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's not true at all. The 4 million we got from Pique alone would have comfortably covered the cost of training and wages for the lot of them, throughout their time at United.
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It might cover the costs but it doesn't justify it, when you consider the intentions are to produce footballers for ourselves. Making a million pound profit or so on a player when we could have developed another and potentially saved ourselves £25million 5 years down the line isn't justification for developing then selling players. As a one off, you could understand...shit happens, but shit is happening time and time again to the extent it's probably not worth the emotional involvement in watching young foreign players in our reserves.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What makes you think anyone at the club let that happen? When do you think he was first offered a new contract and how long is left on his current one? Be precise.
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I seem to remember it becoming club policy not to negotiate senior contracts with youth players until they were in their final year.

It's hard to see how Juve would have been able to get in his ear if United had put a contract on the table over a year ago.
 
Number7 said:
It might cover the costs but it doesn't justify it, when you consider the intentions are to produce footballers for ourselves. Making a million pound profit or so on a player when we could have developed another and potentially saved ourselves £25million 5 years down the line isn't justification for developing then selling players. As a one off, you could understand...shit happens, but shit is happening time and time again to the extent it's probably not worth the emotional involvement in watching young foreign players in our reserves.
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we have actually made over 50 mill from selling players since academy started.

I have never read more crap than some written in this Pobga thread; comparisons made with Ronaldo (what a joke) - Pobga is another talented kid amongst many talented kids that might or might not make top level.

As for the constant references to Rossi and Pigue one is a very good player; however would he have been a regular in Uniteds 1st team? I doubt it, anyway he was not prepared to wait and find out. The other wanted to go back to his home club and at United saw two top class CB's in front of him and from what i have seen would still be in front of him when fit.
 
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