If you go by that logic then we should be playing Nani in midfield.
Kagawa is class, but we shouldn't move him into a 2 man midfield and waste his talents, he should be up there with Rooney/Welbeck. He's a goalscorer after all.
Shinji Kagawa
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If you go by that logic then we should be playing Nani in midfield.
Kagawa is class, but we shouldn't move him into a 2 man midfield and waste his talents, he should be up there with Rooney/Welbeck. He's a goalscorer after all.
A bit like Scholes then.
Or at least the Scholes of a few years ago.
We've been crying out for someone to replace his goals from central midfield in a 442. Don't see why Kagawa can't be that player. Maybe not against everyone we play but certainly against a lot of the weaker teams.
Or at least the Scholes of a few years ago.
We've been crying out for someone to replace his goals from central midfield in a 442. Don't see why Kagawa can't be that player. Maybe not against everyone we play but certainly against a lot of the weaker teams.
He reminds me in Scholes in that he does things which look to simple to get away from players. You think they've gone into a crowded area and then they do something like a turn or a dummy and they've made room for themselves. Looks simple but few players have the ability.
Scholes loved to get forward but he still played a deeper role than Kagawa does. And come on, Kagawa is not at Scholes level, he most certainly can't pass like Scholes can. He also had a certain Roy Keane alongside him back then.
Senseless comparison.
EDIT: Re your edit, maybe we can against weaker teams, but mostly I think he'll be behind Rooney.
Kagawa touches has shown how little technical ability we have in the squad.He has already become a level above from most of the players we have in the squad.
When you say "but he still played deeper", which era of Scholes are you talking about?
Serious question here- the guy is too good to sit on the bench, who is he going to replace in starting XI
Welbeck. Certainly in the bigger games. I wouldn't be too surprised to see him in a midfield 2 in some games.
He's class. Can't wait to see him properly once the season starts.
Rooney if he carries on his form from the last many games.
I knew Kagawa was great, but I've been blown away by how impressive he's looked so far. I'd want him in the team ahead of most as he brings something different and much needed to our style, and I can't wait to see him get a proper outing with the likes of Cleverley, Nani and Welbeck. The one-touch football will be terrific.
I think we both know there's absolutely zero chance of that happening.
Although I'd have absolutely nothing against benching Rooney when he's in shit form and Kagawa in great, I'm not sure SAF will do that.
Sorry but because he has not had to do those type of cross field passes, does not mean he cannot do them
scholes from 2003-2004 never really did that type of passing anyway, he would usually play passes alot more to feet as beckham was never a great runner, and giggs was better when running with it.
Sorry but because he has not had to do those type of cross field passes, does not mean he cannot do them
scholes from 2003-2004 never really did that type of passing anyway, he would usually play passes alot more to feet as beckham was never a great runner, and giggs was better when running with it.
so we're just to assume he can, even though he never has? Are you suggesting he's as good at them as Paul Scholes, despite having never really done them before, or playing in a deep enough position to do so?The way the games going, I think Asia will be a BIG market for us in years to come. If Shinji is a sign of the potential there, then that's not a bad thing. He did decent against Barcelona. Unlucky not to grab another goal for us. I can't wait to see some of the link up player we're going to see.
Are those passes integral to being a midfielder?
He can play good long balls, thats not the problem.
The problem is we dont have Roy Keane to cover all the defensive work and send a rocket up his ass if he is an inch out of position
This is why he's perfect to play in a midfield 3, not 2.
The problem is we dont have Roy Keane to cover all the defensive work and send a rocket up his ass if he is an inch out of position
This is why he's perfect to play in a midfield 3, not 2.
Have you seen us play for the last 5 years? We've generally had a midfielder doing that.
Not my point anyway, someone else brought up Scholes.
You can't just say that because someone is a technically gifted player that they can suddenly play in a midfield two. Kagawa has never played in a midfield two, he's always been behind the striker, it's his best position and personally I'd rather keep him there and utilize him properly rather than trying to move him further back in order to compensate for our midfield.
I do find it funny that you're always going on about how our midfield is fine yet you claim we should move someone who isn't a midfielder into our midfield.
Kagawa's short passing in the final third at time is, quite frankly, stunning. He is one of the very few, if any players we have that is capable of playing passes that other players don't see. More importantly, he weights them perfectly and does it off both feet, at speed. I can not understand why we would want to lose these qualities just to shoehorn players into the side. We had all the same discussion about Sneijder last year. It totally nullifies the aspects of his game that you pay money for.
It would be like dropping David Silva, Mata, Iniesta type players into a deeper role. Sure, they could keep the play ticking over all day, but you need them in the final third doing damage.
It would be like dropping David Silva, Mata, Iniesta type players into a deeper role. Sure, they could keep the play ticking over all day, but you need them in the final third doing damage.
Agreed. Kagawa may be 'able' to play in a midfield two, but we would limit him severely there, why do that when he has shown for Dortmund and even in pre season for us just how good he is behind the striker? It's like when we decided to play Rooney on the left wing because of Ronaldo. An absolute waste.
Have you seen us play for the last 5 years? We've generally had a midfielder doing that.
Not my point anyway, someone else brought up Scholes.
You can't just say that because someone is a technically gifted player that they can suddenly play in a midfield two. Kagawa has never played in a midfield two, he's always been behind the striker, it's his best position and personally I'd rather keep him there and utilize him properly rather than trying to move him further back in order to compensate for our midfield.
I do find it funny that you're always going on about how our midfield is fine yet you claim we should move someone who isn't a midfielder into our midfield.
Shows how much you actually listen, doesn't it.
I never say our midfield is fine, I just say that rightly or wrongly Ferguson has given Scholes and Giggs another year and as such that leaves no room in the squad for another midfielder. If we did sign one, one of those or probably both would get extremely limited play time and that's not how we treat our legends.
When I say our midfield isn't as big a problem as you make out though, I have already been factoring Kagawa in.
He will be playing with one striker ahead of him and as such will be a midfielder in a midfield 3. He has the technical ability to play in a two so there is no harm in speculating about it. Time will tell if Ferguson plays him there, I bet he does on a good few occasions next season.
You say he would be wasted deep in midfield but are an advocate of him playing wide. It's all well and good as an inside forward but our wingers are much different to the system Japan and Dortmund play. They are expected to stay wide stretch the play and create space in the centre and put in crosses. If you haven't seen him play a sweeping Scholes pass then you'll have seen even fewer crosses from him.
It would be a much more natural move and beneficial to both parties to drop into our midfield than it would be to be played as a traditional United winger. Especially when we already have 3 top notch ones at the club.
Bollocks, you constantly quote people who claim we need another midfielder and tell them it's bullshit, you're one of the biggest advocates on here for 'we don't need to sign a midfielder', and constantly citing about how good the players (Anderson, Cleverley) in our midfield can be.
He shouldn't be used in a midfield two OR wide, he should be used behind the striker, he's brilliant there, why ruin that? Him and Rooney practically play the same position, and when someone suggested on here that Rooney play in midfield, he got laughed at.
He shouldn't be used in a midfield two OR wide, he should be used behind the striker, he's brilliant there, why ruin that? Him and Rooney practically play the same position, and when someone suggested on here that Rooney play in midfield, he got laughed at.
I say our midfield isn't as bad as you make it out to be, because you make out we have a midtable midfield being carried by other positions. It's a lot better than you give it credit for.
They got laughed at because they have different qualities. Rooney is a striker being played in the hole. His touch and passing is inconsistent. Sometimes amazing, other times amazingly poor. It's because of this people don't see him as a midfielder, Kagawa on the other hand works in small spaces, has a fantastic touch, great engine, great vision, great one touch play and great movement.
Seriously, you are now comparing Rooney and Kagawa. You don't see how stupid that is?
he will not look out of place even in a barca midfield, which should speak itself for his quality.
I'm not comparing them, I'm pointing out the fact that they play practically in the same position, I'm pointing out the fact that Rooney was used wide, not in his natural position, and he wasn't very good there. I'm not saying they're similar players.
Seriously, why play him in a midfield two, you seriously think that wouldn't limit him, given that he's never done it before and has been so good for Dortmund in the last two years behind the striker?
Seriously, why play him in a midfield two, you seriously think that wouldn't limit him, given that he's never done it before and has been so good for Dortmund in the last two years behind the striker?
Kagawa in a midfield two alongside Carrick is something I can see working but only in certain games, just as Giggs plays in this role at times.
There is no doubt that in the majority of games he should only be used in his main position behind the striker, but in certain games against teams who we will dominate the ball against and also at certain times in games where we are searching for a late goal and space is opening up it might benefit us to have him and Rooney both interchanging behind the forward whilst still having two wide players on at the same time.
It wont matter that he doesn't have the long passing range of Scholes, his movement and short passing game will bring its own type of control and fluidity to our play. It also doesn't mean he necessarily has to play much deeper than he prefers.
There is no doubt that in the majority of games he should only be used in his main position behind the striker, but in certain games against teams who we will dominate the ball against and also at certain times in games where we are searching for a late goal and space is opening up it might benefit us to have him and Rooney both interchanging behind the forward whilst still having two wide players on at the same time.
It wont matter that he doesn't have the long passing range of Scholes, his movement and short passing game will bring its own type of control and fluidity to our play. It also doesn't mean he necessarily has to play much deeper than he prefers.
You are comparing them. You are saying that "if we don't expect Rooney to play there why do we expect Kagawa as they play in the same position" that is a comparison and it's a rubbish comparison as they have different qualities. For what it's worth, Rooney didnt play in that position, he played further forward and closer to Welbeck than Kagawa played to Lewandowski it was much more of a "partnership".
As for Rooney on the wing, it wasn't his best position but he did a fantastic job for us there and in a case of "for the greater good" it was a tactical master stroke. That's really not a good example.
We really aren't talking about picking him in a midfield 2 in a UCL semi final or anything. I think most on here are thinking more along the lines of the midtable teams that press us and expose how static we can be at times. Playing 3 in midfield would be too negative but having Kagawa's dynamism in there would really add something to our play and could be the piece or jigsaw needs.
Pexbo, Kagawa doesn't even play in a midfield 3, have you watched him? He plays behind the striker, he's practically a forward himself, he was never expected to contribute defensively for Dortmund like a standard midfielder was. I was comparing him to Rooney because they play in the same fecking position, I never said they're similar players, only the fact that people have said Rooney should play there too.
I do think however Kagawa will play the high up role in a midfield 3 for us in big games, it's a fine line between an 'attacking midfielder' and a #10 (a.k.a Rooney).
I simply think he'd be a waste in a midfield two, that's all. Is that so difficult to grasp? He is so much more effective in an advanced role and that's where we should play him. I don't want him moved from there just to accommodate other players, which would basically be the only reason to move him into midfield.
Maybe we will use him in a midfield two against weaker teams at OT, but that'd likely mean Clev and Anderson would be injured again, so hopefully that doesn't happen.
I do think however Kagawa will play the high up role in a midfield 3 for us in big games, it's a fine line between an 'attacking midfielder' and a #10 (a.k.a Rooney).
I simply think he'd be a waste in a midfield two, that's all. Is that so difficult to grasp? He is so much more effective in an advanced role and that's where we should play him. I don't want him moved from there just to accommodate other players, which would basically be the only reason to move him into midfield.
Maybe we will use him in a midfield two against weaker teams at OT, but that'd likely mean Clev and Anderson would be injured again, so hopefully that doesn't happen.
I don't understand how this is so hard for people to get...
Fecking miles away from anybody we have on the books other than maybe Nani (and Berba). You can just tell from his touches, passing and awareness that he is exactly the type of player we've been missing for years now. With the way football is evolving into a passing game, he will help us tremendously.
Dortmund played a 2-3-1 formation with him operating in the centre of the 3. Bender and Kehl sat deep behind him and he would drop to pick the ball and carry it forward or move it quickly wide looking to counter with Gotze, Kuba, Grobkrutz or Ledowanski.
I really don't know what you have seen him do when you see him play, sit around the perimeter of the 18 yard box? He's been very mobile every time I have seen him.
I really don't know what you have seen him do when you see him play, sit around the perimeter of the 18 yard box? He's been very mobile every time I have seen him.
So he played as an attacking midfielder (in your opinion), with two central midfielders sitting behind him in a deep role, which now leads you to believe that he can infact play in a midfield two.
Will he still be as good in a midfield two? Will he not be limited there? Will he score as many goals?
Most importantly, WHY would we play him there? It seems the general reasoning behind playing Kagawa in a midfield two is to not limit game time for Welbeck and Hernandez, yet if we play him in a midfield two, both Cleverley and Anderson will then get less game time, the only difference is that Kagawa will no longer be operating in his best position. So why do it? What the feck is the point?
Sometimes, Kagawa even played as a second striker. On line with Lewandowski - he's capable of playing there, but also fine to play deeper, even in a two-man midfield.
thats the thing
i know he's only 23 but I think he will improve rooney/welbeck/cleverley/young and anderson
he'll link up fantastically with nani and scholes who don't need time on the ball like some of our players
So he has played in a two before? I imagine this was in games where Dortmund had the majority of the ball and his role was still to be creative rather than do a lot of defensive work?
Scholes started as a striker, and was moved backwards as he was shown to be more effective there.
Why could Kagawa not be the same?
Yes, there were times when he played on line with Lewandowski - in the German Cup final previously.
He also does a lot of defensive work - but, most of the time, when the opponent had the ball at the back and Lewandowski was moving towards the defender with the ball, Kagawa moved up to support him and stop the ball going to the other centre-back.
Um yeah, when he was 18.
Kagawa is 23 and has already shown just how effective he is in his current position. It's not even comparable.
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