Semi Final 2 - antohan v Gio

[Brwned]

Team antohan

Strongest back 5 with Passarella who can take up a libero role and build up from deep. El Kaiser was the highest scoring defender in history (1/3 record). Both my fullbacks are accomplished CBs so when he moves to libero they tuck in and create a formidable back three with McGrath

The midfield trio now has a more potent box-to-box in Breitner (1/2 for Bayern). There’s a good mix of defensive nous, power and sublime passing providing the ideal platform for the best and only out and out wide pair remaining. Morena will keep his CBs busy and use his killer instinct

With Gio it all revolves around shackling Platini, which Breitner, Falcao and Passarella as libero can take care of

His left flank offers no real width and his dangerous flank faces the most rock solid flank he could face:

• Boniek keeps Nelinho pinned back but was great at tracking back

• Briegel was the best LB in this era

• Cover: Breitner kept Rep in his pocket in the 74 final, Passarella got him subbed in 78

Platini is great eye candy but man for man my side is better:

• My entire back 5 is solid and has better footballers

• Breitner was as effective as Souness, but scored 3x more goals

• Brady was great but in Falcao I have the best deep lying playmaker of this era and one of the best ever

• Platini was better than Schuster but many argue that with him Germany may have won all WCs from 74 to 90

• Boniek is a better wide option than Kempes and a big part of Platini’s form at Juve. When Boniek moved to Roma, Platini conceded the top league scorer would be whoever partnered Boniek. And so it was

• Which will make Morena a happy camper in the box. I do not expect him rated higher than Elkjaer, but just check his record and you'll see he is good for a goal with this service (0.85 record without Boniek, Schuster, Falcao, Breitner or Simonsen)

• Simonsen scored more goals than Rep and will have an easier game.

So 1-2 of his players would improve my side, 7 of mine would improve his. Surely has to more than make up for “he has Platini”.

Starting Lineup

Spoiler

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WARNING: This is a tactical change to hold a lead in the last five minutes of a game. The oppo is throwing the kitchen sink at me, which creates great opportunities on the break for two players who excelled at running at defences Giggs '99 style.

Team Gio

Starting Lineup

Spoiler

Current Lineup

Tactics:
The 6ft-plus backline pack plenty of physical punch with three of the four famed for their defensive intelligence. Hansen and Gentille should have little trouble dealing with Antohan's forward line, whether that's Simonsen, Moreno or the in-all-likelihood isolated Boniek. Their comfort on the ball, combined with the passing range, vision and tenacity of the midfield trio should ensure control of the game - providing plenty of ammunition for the marauding and direct four of Platini, Elkjaer, Rep and Kempes. In light of Antohan's packed defence, two forwards will stay wide, interchanging as the mood takes them.


Player Profiles

Where the difference will be made:

• Midfield. The best midfield in the game will force Antohan's team back into his own half. It's so strong Liam Brady is stuck on the bench cursing that 'Scottish fecker' in charge. Antohan's greatest threat will come from Boniek, Schuster and Simonsen running from midfield. But Souness and Tardelli will win it back quicker than you can say 'box-to-box'.
• The square of death. Hansen, Gentille, Tardelli and Souness form the defensive axis of the team: an impenetrable quartet that will give the square root of feck all away.
• Strikers. Antohan has a very strong defence, but consider the schooling Preben Elkjaer gave Paul McGrath's Ireland in 1985. Compare the goal threat - Moreno (if he starts) and Simonsen (a decent goalscorer), whereas I've got four of the highest calibre. Kempes (45 goals in 1977/78 and top scorer in the 1978 World Cup), Platini - the only playmaking midfielder who hit 30 goals a season throughout his career, no better encapsulated than by the 9 goals in 5 games at Euro 84, Johnny Rep (7 World Cup goals adept on the right or leading the line) and Elkjaer (38 goals in 69 internationals for Denmark). All proven and productive at the highest level.
• Squad depth. Game-changing class in the waiting cavalry of Liam Brady, Cha Boom, Davie Cooper and Humberto Cuelho. That's three players capable of changing the shape of a game, far beyond what's sitting in the opposition dugout.
• Cohesion. Souness and Hansen anchored Liverpool to unprecedented domestic and European success. Platini, Tardelli and Gentille picked up where they left off to establish Juventus as Europe's finest team, Platini having done the same at an international level with Bossis. Rep linked up superbly with both Platini at St Etienne - "what a goal scorer. Cruyff dropped into midfield to escape the shackles of the centre backs, but Platini kept on going where it hurts" - and Kempes at Valencia as part of what Rep called a "sensational forward line". Right through the team there are established relationships, players who are proven to work together and be more than the sum of their already very sizeable parts.

 

[Duffy]

It's a tough one this...gonna have to have a think before voting...

 

[Interval]

That GK, defence of antohan's.

His midfield

 

[antohan]

MORENA's RECORD (see what you did there Gio... bastard! LOL)

1973-79 with Peñarol:

• 189 goals in 194 league and Libertadores games, top league scorer every year, twice breaking the league record (still stands at 36 in 21 games), top Libertadores scorer twice.

1979-81 with Rayo Vallecano and Valencia:

• 20 goals in 34 despite Rayo being relegated fodder
• 24 goals in 37 outscoring Kempes and scoring the winner at the European Supercup (wiki has 20, Valencia site has 24)
• Now allow for time to settle abroad, in a different league, with a new team…

1981-83 back at Peñarol after the fans raised the money to bring him back (i.e. he didn't fail with Valencia, just something extraordinary happened):

• 40 goals in 68, top scoring in the league and the Libertadores
• Won the league, Libertadores and Intercontinental Cup in 1982. League winner and Libertadores runner-up in 1983.
• He scored in all of the two-leg continental final games: an extraordinary big game player.

Other:

• Second highest Copa Libertadores scorer ever, with a 1 in 2 record, equivalent to Raúl’s in the CL
• Scored 1 in 2 for the national team during their worst period ever (averaged 1 in 1 after his return from Spain, with better service)
• Highest scorer for Peñarol against bitter rivals Nacional with 27 in 29 games: big game performer again, he didn’t just pummel dross.

 

[antohan]

That GK, defence of antohan's.

His midfield

It's just insanely good, and Gio benching Brady for Tardelli menas he is even more reliant on Platini. I just need to mark one guy very well and his entire creative engine and gameplan falls apart.

 

[Interval]

It's just insanely good, and Gio benching Brady for Tardelli menas he is even more reliant on Platini. I just need to mark one guy very well and his entire creative engine and gameplan falls apart.

Yep. With Breitner and Falcao, I can see you control the game.

 

[antohan]

Like how a central "square of death" is going to disposess two free roaming wide players. Right...

 

[Interval]

Like how a central "square of death" is going to disposess two free roaming wide players. Right...

Eh?

 

[antohan]

Eh?

He is calling his two CBs and DMs "the square of death"

 

[Gio]

My entire back 5 is solid and has better footballers
Breitner was as effective as Souness, but scored 3x more goals

We've both got solid defences and I'm not seeing how you possess better footballers. I've got more technical quality at full-back in the cultured Bossis and perhaps the best right foot in the whole draft in Nelinho. Briegel and Gerets are a fine pair - that's not up for dispute.

Don't downplay just how good Souness was - he's the best midfield anchor in the draft. In fact there's plenty on here who rate him higher than the legendary Robbo.

Boniek is a better wide option than Kempes and a big part of Platini’s form at Juve. When Boniek moved to Roma, Platini conceded the top league scorer would be whoever partnered Boniek.

Boniek wasn't French though, where Platini netted 42 goals in 71 internationals and 9 goals in 5 Euro '84 games. With a midfield axis of Souness and club team-mate Tardelli, he'll have complete licence to dictate play and score goals.

Simonsen scored more goals than Rep and will have an easier game.

Rep is a thoroughbred right-winger and only played occassionally through the middle. Simonsen was deployed more often down the middle and his scoring rate isn't a great reflection of that fact.

So 1-2 of his players would improve my side, 7 of mine would improve his. Surely has to more than make up for “he has Platini”.

The only noticeable improvement I'd get from your side is Boniek and Passarella. Others are either similar (Falcao/Tardelli, Briegel/Bossis) or much poorer (Elkjaer/Moreno, Platini/Schuster).

 

[antohan]

It is also a bit rich to point at a game were "McGraths Ireland" got school by Denmark. McGrath was not playing as a CB but a midfielder. If the point is McGrath can't cope with Elkjaer it's a fail, if it is that Denmark were a cracking side it's just old news.

 

[Gio]

It is also a bit rich to point at a game were "McGraths Ireland" got school by Denmark. McGrath was not playing as a CB but a midfielder. If the point is McGrath can't cope with Elkjaer it's a fail, if it is that Denmark were a cracking side it's just old news.

McGrath played on the right-hand side, the flank where Elkjaer did almost of all of his best work that day, drifting out then attacking from deep - with little resistance.

 

[antohan]

We've both got solid defences and I'm not seeing how you possess better footballers. I've got more technical quality at full-back in the cultured Bossis and perhaps the best right foot in the whole draft in Nelinho. Briegel and Gerets are a fine pair - that's not up for dispute.

Had to chop down to text to fit it in a PM. Briegel I think is the better fullback and Gerets a much better all-round proposition than Nelinho. As you say, not up for dispute.

The "better footballers" was more aimed at the CB pair and McGrath v. Gentile in particular, that particular matchup is down to how you prefer your CBs. Passarella and McGrath is a better footballing proposition.

Don't downplay just how good Souness was - he's the best midfield anchor in the draft. In fact there's plenty on here who rate him higher than the legendary Robbo.

I don't, when I had Lerby (who I rate more than anyone else here) it was one of the reasons I shirked from a midfield confrontation and sat back. Breitner though is an entirely different proposition.

Boniek wasn't French though, where Platini netted 42 goals in 71 internationals and 9 goals in 5 Euro '84 games. With a midfield axis of Souness and club team-mate Tardelli, he'll have complete licence to dictate play and score goals.

Which is why I said Juve and the point was to highlight his creative and assists contribution. Of course, I don't think Platini was "Boniek dependent", which is the issue I have when people start pointing out club partnerships. Transfers usually involve one player, not the 2-3 that work well together. Great players will just perform (so long as they play in a system that fits them and not out of position, like Kempes).

Rep is a thoroughbred right-winger and only played occassionally through the middle. Simonsen was deployed more often down the middle and his scoring rate isn't a great reflection of that fact.

Think we are looking at different stages in his career. He did end up playing through the middle as he lost pace, so has Giggs at times. You are looking at the end of his career when he made third place in the Ballon d'Or, I'm looking the earlier stage when he was first almost unanimously with Keegan second and a St. Etienne Platini third.

He is the only player to have scored in all three big finals (European, UEFA and Cup Winners Cup). Big game player, much like Boniek, and Morena.

In any case, I do have a lot of time for Rep, which is why I went into detail about how much harder a game he will have.

The only noticeable improvement I'd get from your side is Boniek and Passarella. Others are either similar (Falcao/Tardelli, Briegel/Bossis) or much poorer (Elkjaer/Moreno, Platini/Schuster).

Those last two are the 1-2 I refer to (although Morena's record speaks for itself I can't walk into a final with stats). I agree Boniek and Passarella would be your noticeable improvements. One was the most outstanding and complete defender of the era, the other would give you width on the left, which you blatantly do not have.

So yes, you have two picks and those would be it but Falcao, Gerets and Dasayev would definitely improve your side and Briegel/McGrath is down to preference I guess but I reckon they would be improvements.

 

[antohan]

McGrath played on the right-hand side, the flank where Elkjaer did almost of all of his best work that day, drifting out then attacking from deep - with little resistance.

As said, he was not playing CB. Moran and Lawrenson were.

Are you seriously trying to make the point Elkjaer would have the better of McGrath by pointing out the best Danish side ever gave Ireland the runaround?

 

[antohan]

I have to go to work, will have to check in later and see how this has gone.

So far all I can see is Gio being entirely Platini-dependent while all five in my midfield spread the creative onus and pass their way around Souness and Tardelli running around like headless chicken.

 

[Gio]

Had to chop down to text to fit it in a PM. Briegel I think is the better fullback and Gerets a much better all-round proposition than Nelinho. As you say, not up for dispute.

The "better footballers" was more aimed at the CB pair and McGrath v. Gentile in particular, that particular matchup is down to how you prefer your CBs. Passarella and McGrath is a better footballing proposition.

The reaon I suggested Passarela as an improvement would see him come in for Nelinho, with Gentille moving out wide. Hansen and Passarela are the two best defenders on the park (and in the draft apart from Scirea).

Which is why I said Juve and the point was to highlight his creative and assists contribution. Of course, I don't think Platini was "Boniek dependent", which is the issue I have when people start pointing out club partnerships. Transfers usually involve one player, not the 2-3 that work well together. Great players will just perform (so long as they play in a system that fits them and not out of position, like Kempes).

There's plenty of great players who haven't performed well together, otherwise any middle-east oil baron with more money than sense would bring instant success. Look at the synergy Xavi and Iniesta have playing together. It's that kind of fluidity I'd be looking at with my attack, Kempes starts from the left because he's left-footed, but interchanges freely with Elkjaer (excellent on either wing) and Rep who he combined with to devastating effect in La Liga.

So yes, you have two picks and those would be it but Falcao, Gerets and Dasayev would definitely improve your side and Briegel/McGrath is down to preference I guess but I reckon they would be improvements.

Gerets wouldn't be an improvement on Gentile however - in fact probably a defensively less robust switch. Falcao, Tardelli and Breitner are of a similar standard - same for Dasayev and Preud'homme. All great players but none appreciably better than any others.

 

[antohan]

Fair enough, I can see the wisdom in getting rid of Nelinho, he sticks out like a sore thumb in your back four from the moment you need someone to actually defend in that flank.

Falcao is an entirely different proposition than Tardelli from a playmaking point of view. Breitner v Souness really depends on what goalscoring contribution and flank cover you need, which is where Breitner edges it for me.

Anyhow, first vote in and it's yours. As usual, some random who won't give any reasons. Brilliant

 

[Polaroid]

Gentile-Hansen is an excellent partnership as is Passarella-McGrath
Not much between the keepers and fullbacks in their prime either

Both sides have quality midfield trios, the best of the semi-finalists
Platini is the obvious standout although Souness might be under-rated here. He ran Liverpool's midfield like Roy Keane ran ours, at a time when they ruled England and Europe. He also had a passing range and accuracy that cannot be underestimated, especially with the pace and movement Gio has upfront.

Upfront, Antohan has Boniek, Gio has Kempes and Elkjaer. Morena is not in the same class. Advantage Gio

Other than direct comparison of player quality, Gio has made a good case on goal threat and cohesion. Hence my vote for him

 

[antohan]

That's fair enough Pol.

I think you are underestimating the fact I have real width upfront, which in tight games like this is what stretches defences and creates openings. It was the one thing I also didn't like about your side (and said it then), although it was clearly packed with outstanding individuals (three of your front four being involved in the semis!).

Obviously don't agree with not putting Morena in the same class when he played alongside Kempes at Valencia and was their top scorer, but I've always known I'm running a risk there.

I had the chance to pick Rossi and didn't because, frankly, he was nowhere near as deadly a goalscorer as Morena. If any ball is spilt, rebounds or comes loose for any reason in that box he will nail it, he always did. He was a mixture of Vieri's heading, Inzaghi's opportunism and Solskjaer's finishing.

In any case, I can see your reasons, thanks for the feedback.

 

[Red-Indian]

I suppose i shouldn't be doing this but i'll give Antohan a vote for Morena and that story i really enjoyed. There have to be people who voted for weaker reasons. Not many have seen this generation play properly.

 

[antohan]

Thanks mate. No worries, your vote will be more than balanced by those who haven't seen him yet state he doesn't belong here, or call him Moreno to diss him. Christ, if only Moreno (el Charro) wasn't too old I would happily have him on here as well!

If his flaw is not to have established himself in Europe, all I can say is Zico failed in Europe yet no one disputes the player he was. Morena played in Europe for as long, in two different teams and top scored in both, only to return to South America for really exceptional reasons. Apparently it's fine for Rep and Kempes to do well for Valencia but not for Morena.

If his flaw is not to have played in a successful national side, I can only say the likes of Giggs and Weah had the same problem.

Let's face it, any Boca or River fan that sees no one picked Brindisi or Acosta would go ballistic, but those names mean nothing to people in the rest of the world, which is understandable, but not a good basis for disqualifying a player altogether.

I just happened to pick the one I watched week in week out for years and very rarely didn't go home without him having scored. The chap even played and scored on his wedding day FFS

 

[Gio]

I had the chance to pick Rossi and didn't because, frankly, he was nowhere near as deadly a goalscorer as Morena. If any ball is spilt, rebounds or comes loose for any reason in that box he will nail it, he always did.

I appreciate his goalscoring qualities but just cannot see him getting a sniff marshalled by Gentille and Hansen, particularly with Preud'homme's exceptional handling minimising any rebounds or loose balls.

 

[antohan]

I appreciate his goalscoring qualities but just cannot see him getting a sniff marshalled by Gentille and Hansen, particularly with Preud'homme's exceptional handling minimising any rebounds or loose balls.

Same applies to my back three TBF. On that basis all these games would be goalless

I didn't say he would freely score, I said he was good for one, didn't even push 1-2 goals. Just one loose ball, one rebound, one post, and he will nail you.

I wish I could download those career review youtubes and edit a few of his goals out, one of them you see a cannon shot hit the post and before the camera has moved to follow it back you are seeing the ball darting back in. He truly was something else in his reading of where the ball would end up and his reaction, that split second quicker, was devastating.

You don't top score in a league six seasons in a row without defenders being fully aware they should be on to you, yet he kept scoring... And it wasn't just the league, he top scored the Libertadores three times, he scored in four consecutive Libertadores finals... He was being man-marked all along, but it made bugger all difference.

The main difference I see between my side and yours is that I can stretch you more and create more openings. It's not only creating but several players with different distinctive ways they can hurt you, which is what I think makes the difference in such tight games (other than luck, of course).

 

[antohan]

And as I write that two more pop in and give no reason whatsoever. Great

 

[Gio]

Same applies to my back three TBF. On that basis all these games would be goalless

However there's considerable more goal threat posed by Elkjaer, Platini, Kempes and Rep than there is in Boniek, Morena, Schuster and Simonsen.

 

[antohan]

Beware Gio, it's midweek and getting dark, just about the time European games were played.

Time for "Il bello di notte" to dazzle.

Just type that into google and you will get this video of Boniek giving Hansen and Souness' team a licking (SuperCup Final, 2-0, both from Boniek).



The clip also adds his winner in the 1984 CWC final against Porto, for good measure.

And don't forget the 1985 European Cup Final was decided by a penalty on Boniek as he entered the box after running that same Liverpool defence ragged.

That's what I mean when I say I'm better equipped to stretch you and create the openings: a set of outstanding passmasters in midfield (+Passarella from libero) and two free-roaming mazy dribblers with pace to burn.

 

[antohan]

However there's considerable more goal threat posed by Elkjaer, Platini, Kempes and Rep than there is in Boniek, Morena, Schuster and Simonsen.

You are doing the same thing Polaroid did, you are adding goalscoring records without acknowledging they require an adequate platform creating the openings and ignoring that Kempes out wide is never going to score as many as usual and in any case the sort of goals he scored are the chances that will fall to Elkjaer.

As I said earlier, Rep is up against the worst flank he could face, including two players who kept him in their pockets in the 74 and 78 final (so much so that Rep got subbed in 78).

Your main creative and goalscoring outlet is Platini, so I just need to focus on him (Breitner, Falcao and Passarella as libero all limiting his space and options) and you are stuffed.

You are also ignoring Breitner's 1 in 2 record from midfield and Passarella's 1 in 3 record. Breitner's long rangers are an alternative which is non-exclusive from Morena's heading and predatory poaching in the box, or Boniek and Simonsen's mazing runs on either flank.

More creative outlets + more recognised goalscoring options = more chances of scoring

 

[Interval]

Think people are underrating Breitner here. I saw quite a bit of him when I was researching players and he was a monster of a midfielder.

 

[Gio]

You are doing the same thing Polaroid did, you are adding goalscoring records without acknowledging they require an adequate platform creating the openings and ignoring that Kempes out wide is never going to score as many as usual and in any case the sort of goals he scored are the chances that will fall to Elkjaer.

Souness, Tardelli and Platini are the best platform in the game: imposing, energetic and blessed with a superb array of passing to exploit our attacking width. Saying Kempes can't operate from the left side does not reflect his intelligent build-up play and quick feet. It's little different than claiming David Villa, Samuel Eto'o and Thierry Henry can't operate from wide positions in attack. Like Villa, Kempes did much of his best work in the inside-left channel - look at his goals in the '78 World Cup Final as one of many examples.

You are also ignoring Breitner's 1 in 2 record from midfield and Passarella's 1 in 3 record. Breitner's long rangers are an alternative which is non-exclusive from Morena's heading and predatory poaching in the box, or Boniek and Simonsen's mazing runs on either flank.

More creative outlets + more recognised goalscoring options = more chances of scoring

Breitner's not going to have any space for long-rangers against such an aggressive and defensively astute midfield. That's why I brought in Tardelli for Brady to reduce the space available to your attacking midfielders who are your only real threat.

 

[antohan]

Souness, Tardelli and Platini are the best platform in the game: imposing, energetic and blessed with a superb array of passing to exploit our attacking width.

Sorry but if you are saying they jointly offer more than Falcao, Schuster and Breitner you are talking nonsense. Platini is a standout player and the other two are very good players indeed but no way they would have the same array of passing.

Saying Kempes can't operate from the left side does not reflect his intelligent build-up play and quick feet. It's little different than claiming David Villa, Samuel Eto'o and Thierry Henry can't operate from wide positions in attack. Like Villa, Kempes did much of his best work in the inside-left channel - look at his goals in the '78 World Cup Final as one of many examples.

That inside left channel goal you are pointing out is more a centreforward goal than one from a guy deployed wide left, as you have. You say your midfield is going to exploit your width and what I'm saying is I'm not seeing it on that side and that clip underscores my statement more than yours.

Kempes could of course occasionally/rarely score a goal after drifting wide but the bulk of them are rather central scrappy charges. Not dissing him by any means, but a scrappy goal after bullying a defender or catching him napping is called a "gol a la Kempes" in Argentina for a reason. That sort of goal is cored when you play in central positions, not pretty much hugging the line. And McGrath and Gerets are far from bullying targets.

BTW, you can't possibly be comparing Kempes to Henry, completely different players.

Breitner's not going to have any space for long-rangers against such an aggressive and defensively astute midfield. That's why I brought in Tardelli for Brady to reduce the space available to your attacking midfielders who are your only real threat.

Tell me how exactly it is that Tardelli and Souness are going to win the ball back when Falcao, Breitner, Schuster, Boniek and Simonsen are exchanging passes.

They will all get a shot at doing what they do best. Your midfield is outnumbered, unless your fullbacks are going to go after their free-roaming wide men and get dragged all over the pitch.

 

[antohan]

From 4-1 down to 5-4 down, Il Bello di Notte is already working his magic

COME ON!!!!!

 

[Gio]

Sorry but if you are saying they jointly offer more than Falcao, Schuster and Breitner you are talking nonsense. Platini is a standout player and the other two are very good players indeed but no way they would have the same array of passing.

You're under-rating the range and vision of Souness again. Platini is the premier passer in the draft.

Kempes could of course occasionally/rarely score a goal after drifting wide but the bulk of them are rather central scrappy charges. Not dissing him by any means, but a scrappy goal after bullying a defender or catching him napping is called a "gol a la Kempes" in Argentina for a reason. That sort of goal is cored when you play in central positions, not pretty much hugging the line. And McGrath and Gerets are far from bullying targets.

I'll refer you to the OP:

In light of Antohan's packed defence, two forwards will stay wide, interchanging as the mood takes them.

I appreciate what you're saying, but Kempes is left footed, did a lot of good work in the inside-left channel and was productive outside the box: hence why his starting position was on the left. And he's got the freedom to interchange in a fluid front three. That will happen often given Elkjaer's tendency to drift into and dominate wide areas. And I've already said I want Kempes in the middle to directly link up and renew his successful club partnership with Rep. We want that movement because, with Platini pulling the strings behind, it'll be the best way to stretch your back four.

Tell me how exactly it is that Tardelli and Souness are going to win the ball back when Falcao, Breitner, Schuster, Boniek and Simonsen are exchanging passes.

They will all get a shot at doing what they do best. Your midfield is outnumbered, unless your fullbacks are going to go after their free-roaming wide men and get dragged all over the pitch.

If Boniek and Simonsen drift inside they'll get clustered out of the game by the quartet of Hansen, Gentille, Tardelli and Souness. If they drop deep it's harmless possession and my wide forwards would quickly be in attendance in any case. The only way you're going to get a foothold of possession is in relatively meaningless areas of the park. And if you do my front four are perfectly primed for the penetrating counter punch.

 

[antohan]

You're under-rating the range and vision of Souness again. Platini is the premier passer in the draft.

I would say you are underrating Falcao. Massively.

Despite Brazil being knocked out without even making the semis, you would expect one of their players to make Silver or Bronze Ball. It wasn't Zico nor Socrates getting it, it was Falcao getting the Silver Ball.

Falcao was the single most important reason why Roma kept Juventus challenged in Italy in the early 80s. Juve had Platini, Roma had Falcao. The problem for Roma was Juve had a truckload of other great players and they only really had 3-4 other great ones, and yet they even nicked a league and Italian Cup off them, and run them all the way to the close every season with Falcao pulling the strings.

If Boniek and Simonsen drift inside they'll get clustered out of the game by the quartet of Hansen, Gentille, Tardelli and Souness. If they drop deep it's harmless possession and my wide forwards would quickly be in attendance in any case. The only way you're going to get a foothold of possession is in relatively meaningless areas of the park. And if you do my front four are perfectly primed for the penetrating counter punch.

More often than not they'll just leave your fullback for dead and cut inside/shoot or cross for Morena, Schuster, Breitner and Falcao arriving in the box, let alone their counterpart from the other end.

The free roaming and drifting in is an option as and when that is the more appropriate course of action. As Pelé put it: "a player like Boniek just needs to be unleashed"

 

[Theon]

Too close to call this one, no idea who would win. Gio's midfield three is just perfect, but anto's is great as well and probably has the better defence with Passarella/McGrath being better than Gentile/Hansen. I could see Boniek having success against Nelinho as well..

 

[Gio]

More often than not they'll just leave your fullback for dead and cut inside/shoot or cross for Morena, Schuster, Breitner and Falcao arriving in the box, let alone their counterpart from the other end.

The free roaming and drifting in is an option as and when that is the more appropriate course of action. As Pelé put it: "a player like Boniek just needs to be unleashed"

Fine. If your entire midfield is attacking potential crossing opportunities, Platini will quite happily take the oceans of space to launch a counter in your unanchored midfield.

Boniek is your main man and if he does get past Nelinho, I've got Gentile backing him up: probably the best man in the draft for the job thanks to his ruthless man-marking skills, comfort at CB and RB, and familiarity with the Pole having played and trained with him every day at Juventus.

 

[antohan]

I could see Boniek having success against Nelinho as well..

Precisely my point. These tight games get decided by stretching the oppo and finding the path of least resistance.

The most glaring mismatch is Boniek vs. Nelinho, it's going to be a constant source of trouble and you can see 1-2 goals coming from there either directly from Boniek or through an assist. I have no weakness that comes even close to that.

As the clip earlier shows, Boniek shat on Liverpool's defence in the 1985 SuperCup then went on to do the same in the European Cup Final. That penalty was a professional foul, otherwise a certain goal by Boniek again.

One pile-up nipped in the bud at 9:17 (yellow)


And at 3:12 the reason I kept telling Gio he couldn't defend high up in the last game (to no avail, "Hansen was a master of the offside trap" and all that waffle that ignores the fact he has no one with Boniek's pace at the back)


Incidentally, Boniek was supposed to be playing in right midfield

 

[Gio]

As I said Nelinho's backed up by Gentile and Souness if he cuts into midfield. He's no mug in any case - the main reason for his lack of retrospective acclaim being the sheer brilliance of Brazil's other right-backs such as Cafu, Carlos Alberto, etc.

I'd be more concerned by the mismatch between my front four and yours. That's where the goals will likely come from.

 

[antohan]

As I said Nelinho's backed up by Gentile and Souness if he cuts into midfield. He's no mug in any case - the main reason for his lack of retrospective acclaim being the sheer brilliance of Brazil's other right-backs such as Cafu, Carlos Alberto, etc.

I lived in Brazil three years. As much as I watched Brazil and saw their clubs in the Libertadores, etc. one of my main sources for knowing about their players is what I learned watching their retro football shows and talking with Brazilians (football is always a good topic).

That's where I picked most of my stories on Uruguayan players who played there all the way to the early 50s. I also learned more than I normally would have about other less widely known players who were brilliant in the domestic competitions, people like Dinamite, who the Botafogo fans raved about and TDon mysteriously kept benching to play Aldridge.

Not once did I ever hear about Nelinho being a good defender but rather the opposite, that he was as good as Leandro or Cafu going forward but a complete liability at the back. Which fits with the average Brazilian fullback to be fair, only that Nelinho was better than average going forward.

I'd be more concerned by the mismatch between my front four and yours. That's where the goals will likely come from.

Again your doing this adding goals nonsense. I understand your point on Elkjaer moving wide to "dominate the flank" while you want Kempes you want to play centrally. I just don't understand why you didn't just put that on the teamsheet. So now both are central so you add their records, while having a wide option. It's all rather contrived, isn't it?

And again, it is not about comparing front 4s or 6s but who they are meant to be stopped by. That's what cost Duffy, his CBs, not his forwards being weaker. The same holds here, your defence is bound to be more porous than mine and has one eyesore of a weak link.

 

[Duffy]

Gone for antohan, just. Very tight game, the only reason I've gone for that is due to how far up field Gio has his winger, I think with them being so high up, it gives huge amounts of space up the flanks, in addition to the front 3 relying on service from Platini alone too much.

As I say close game, but antohan just scrapes it for me.

 

[antohan]

Cheers mate, Il Bello di Notte is going strong tonight

I'll give you another reason, for your peace of mind:

• Gio keeps banging on about how good Hansen and Souness were

• I've shown how Boniek boned Liverpool in two consecutive finals

Who is more deserving of your vote?