In fairness, he's not much of a tackler.
Although it is pre-season.
Although it is pre-season.
Shinji Kagawa
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Scholes didnt make his debut for utd until he was 22, he started as a striker.
Come again please?
His proper debut came at 20 against Port Vale in the league cup, with the Premier League debut three days later.
You're very wrong here.
Cina your missing my point.
Just because Kagawa has played as an AMC for Dortmund for 2 years, does not mean he could not adjust.
If we sign van persie, he is going to play every game he is fit.
Rooney wont be dropped.
Where will kagawa play?
Against the weaker teams in the division at old trafford Kagawa will be needed to get on the ball, he can drop deep and move around anywhere from midfield.
You are talking like he will be stuck between the 2 centre backs and wont see any of the ball all game!.
He can also still score plenty from midfield, if you are good enough, you will score.
Just look at Lampard / Gerrard, they all scored regularly and you wouldn't call them typical number 10's.
I personally feel Kagawa will be moving back in the easy games, and back up top for the harder.
I don't understand why people would want Kagawa deeper. First of all he's unlikely to have the same impact there. The reason the likes of silva, nasri, iniesta, sneijder etc are so revered is because of what they can do around the box. They can make that pass, or that run that opens things up. Kagawa can do that too. But part of that is having the freedom to roam, to not be bothered by a set position. If you put him in a two man midfield then he has a positional burden.
Additionally one of the things I think we've been missing is that link player, particularly in the tough games. That person who can float around the middle and has the ability to start a counter either with quick thinking and quality in the pass or by being able to turn in to space. For me Rooney hasn't been doing it well enough nor been coming deep enough and Welbeck doesn't have the killer touch yet in front of goal. Kagawa behind Rooney, particularly in tough games could be just what we need.
I don't disagree that he couldn't play there against some teams but again I don't see the point. The weaker games are where we should be looking to involve the likes of Powell and potentially Ando, if scholes and clev are ahead of the pecking order to partner Carrick.
I think you're wasting him in a deeper role. Additionally this isn't like when Scholes was coming in to a deeper role. When he was at his peak most teams played 442, which meant that he had much more freedom. Now most teams play 451/433 and flood the middle. For teams set up like ua there just isn't the space for midfielders to have a massive attacking influence in that way at the edge of the box. People complain about our static-ness there, and whilst that's somewhat due to the players a large part of it, is that they're simply outnumbered in the middle and unless we're playing a weaker team or a team who is happy to leave space in the middle then they have to be a bit more conservative. Again though this is where Kagawa can help as his natural game includes going deeper at times which takes some pressure off the midfielders and allows them to get more involved.
Additionally one of the things I think we've been missing is that link player, particularly in the tough games. That person who can float around the middle and has the ability to start a counter either with quick thinking and quality in the pass or by being able to turn in to space. For me Rooney hasn't been doing it well enough nor been coming deep enough and Welbeck doesn't have the killer touch yet in front of goal. Kagawa behind Rooney, particularly in tough games could be just what we need.
I don't disagree that he couldn't play there against some teams but again I don't see the point. The weaker games are where we should be looking to involve the likes of Powell and potentially Ando, if scholes and clev are ahead of the pecking order to partner Carrick.
I think you're wasting him in a deeper role. Additionally this isn't like when Scholes was coming in to a deeper role. When he was at his peak most teams played 442, which meant that he had much more freedom. Now most teams play 451/433 and flood the middle. For teams set up like ua there just isn't the space for midfielders to have a massive attacking influence in that way at the edge of the box. People complain about our static-ness there, and whilst that's somewhat due to the players a large part of it, is that they're simply outnumbered in the middle and unless we're playing a weaker team or a team who is happy to leave space in the middle then they have to be a bit more conservative. Again though this is where Kagawa can help as his natural game includes going deeper at times which takes some pressure off the midfielders and allows them to get more involved.
Good post.
Whilst I agree that Kagawa probably could be thrown into midfield against weaker teams, it would definitely restrict his ability to get forward and score/make goals and it'd also make us less defensively sound at the same time. Gerrard and Lampard aren't really great example of players scoring heaps from midfield, because neither of them are typical centre midfielders.
It's worth remembering that Lampard has spent almost his entire career playing as the most advanced of a 3-man midfield with a dedicated DM and a more box-to-box player behind him (e.g. Makelele, Thiago/Essien, Lampard during Mourinho's time at Chelsea). Gerrard's most productive seasons have come as a right-midfielder around 2004-5 and when he played as a second striker off Torres in the 08/09(?) season. In the modern game it's very unrealistic for a player in a two-man midfield, burdened by the associated positional and defensive responsibilities, to expect a decent goal return. Even at League 2 level where he was clearly a cut-above, Crewe had to relieve Powell of his defensive duties to allow him the freedom he needed to put in that 16 goal season last year.
Ideally I expect Kagawa'd be playing behind the striker, or in a similar position to where Lampard did until recently (as in 'area of the pitch', not 'role', I'm not saying they're similar players). Playing him in a 2-man midfield would limit his ability to play the way we've all been raving about all pre-season.
The problem that i can see is when we are playing the lower placed teams in the league who are content with taking a point, they are going to sit very deep and minimise space.
A classic number 10 who works between the lines wont be getting any room to work there, and he isnt going to win many aerial battles from crosses into the box.
That would mean he is being waisted anyway, his creativity and passing range would be much more suited outside the box and looking for the killer pass in those situations. We would fair alot better having hernandez / rooney in the box than kagawa in those situations.
In away fixtures i can see him being the ideal tool to help us counter attack in a quick/fluent way, but i think sometimes the way we dominate posession at home wont help the way he plays, we normally end up getting the ball wide and firing in crosses as much as possible - that is a long way off how Dortmund used to play.
I don't think slightly deeper will hurt him. He can alternate with Cleverly or Anderson or whatever, making us more unpredictable. It's harder for teams to deal with. That said at least he has shown, that the potential for goals is there. He could have had three already so it's looking good.
I am not missing your point, I am rather literate at English, it's my natural language, I studied it for a year in university, and I wish people would stop using that daft statement in order to try and emphasize their 'point' and make it look like the person they are debating with is an idiot.
Also, it's "you're missing".
I never said he couldn't, what I said is that he is already so effective in that attacking role, that if we did move him to midfield we would be limiting him. Have you watched him play on a regular basis? He is lethal from that position, it's clear that it is where he's at his best. Would you move players like Rooney and Nani in order to accommodate others?
"If" and "fit" being the key words.
Indeed.
Behind Rooney, with RVP on the left. But we probably won't sign RVP anyway, therefore behind Rooney in a 4-4-1-1/4-3-3.
He can drop deep anyway, Rooney does it quite a lot. Silva and Mata do it for their teams. Just because a player plays in an advanced position doesn't mean he can't drop deep.
No I'm not, don't put words in my mouth.
He'll score a lot more in an advanced position. Would Rooney score as many goals in midfield?
Gerrard was at his best behind the striker, with two midfielders behind him. Like when he played with Torres. Lampard was also usually spearheading a 3 man midfield, or a diamond. Neither played in a midfield two when at their goalscoring best.
What happens to Cleverley and Anderson? The whole logistics behind moving Kagawa to a midfield two seems to be because if he played behind Rooney then we would be limiting game time for Welbeck, Hernandez and (unlikely) RVP. But what happens to our young midfielders, do they not count?
Well done on ignoring your Paul Scholes post from earlier though, got that a little wrong, didn't you?
I hate multi-quoting, but one word sentences with questions sort of force it.
All this 'he can play deeper' discussion is fairly immaterial - it's not going to happen. Reminds me of all the "can Rooney play in midfield" stuff. He might get played on the left; or we might have a game where we're behind and SAF decides to make a sub and have him play a little deeper so he can put on another forward.
Other than that, the idea of him playing regularly in midfield is pretty fanciful.
Other than that, the idea of him playing regularly in midfield is pretty fanciful.
He's Fergie's missing link, a player that can make the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 possible. For me, Rooney has never mastered it, he's much better playing off a striker in a 4-4-2.
Kagawa is the reason SAF isn't interested in another midfielder, not because he wants him playing in a 2, but because he wants him to play exactly where he has played on tour. Kagawa this season is what SAF wanted from Nasri last year, possibly Sneijder too if we were interested.
Kagawa is the reason SAF isn't interested in another midfielder, not because he wants him playing in a 2, but because he wants him to play exactly where he has played on tour. Kagawa this season is what SAF wanted from Nasri last year, possibly Sneijder too if we were interested.
I think he's going to miss the next couple of friendlies because of some pointless friendly he's playing for Japan.
So we come back to the same old question.
Why the hell are we buying van persie?
Its going to be either rooney or him on the bench..
Sounds good to me.
Options.
We'll also play 4-4-2 in certain games don't forget.
Thats what im saying though.
If we are buying Van persie to we want him on the pitch, we want rooney on the pitch, we want nani and valencia on the pitch, we want kagawa on.
we could play 4-4-2 comfortably without dropping any of those players.
People say "but kagawa would be waisted back there", well so will either rooney or van persie on the bench!. I would rather have kagawa working his magic a little further back than sitting on the bench.
It's all about options. Barca want Fabregas, Xavi, Messi, Villa, Iniesta, Busquests and Sanchez on the pitch, it never really happens but everyone still gets plenty of pitch time.
Your wasting your time Adam. According to Cina, players are born into a position and they must not leave that position. Despite showing all the qualities to excell in our weakest position, a position Cina has big issues with, Kagawa must stay in his attacking midfielder role that he plays with Japan and Dortmund, two teams who never had a player of Scholes or Carrick's quality to play alongside in a two man midfield.
For me it's not whether he can play there or not, it's clear he has the qualities, it's more whether he finally has a partner who could support him there. Allow him to play his natural game with two players ahead of him instead of behind.
For me it's not whether he can play there or not, it's clear he has the qualities, it's more whether he finally has a partner who could support him there. Allow him to play his natural game with two players ahead of him instead of behind.
Or, we could play Cleverley there and let him pick the ball up and move it forward to the players who can do some serious damage. Like say, Kagawa.
I think all this talk does a bit of a disservice to Kagawa. I feel his qualities are being underrated and when he starts pissing all over teams in his natural position, there won't be such a rush to change that. We'll see though
I think all this talk does a bit of a disservice to Kagawa. I feel his qualities are being underrated and when he starts pissing all over teams in his natural position, there won't be such a rush to change that. We'll see though
Nobody is saying he should start there every game, he should play most of the time in his natural position but as a tactical change against weaker teams who pressure us on the ball and play with a high line he would be perfect. It's what we struggled with last season and he could be the answer.
See, I think Cleverley is more than capable of doing the same thing. Not too many weaker teams play a high line against us, especially not at home, and having someone as sharp as Kagawa just behind the forwards (instead of Rooney) might make them think twice about pressing us anyway.
Eh? You were the one making a massive deal previously saying he couldn't play on the left wing.
Wee bit hypocritical there Pexbo.
We've got quality wingers as it is, he would add nothing to that position, his qualities are far better served centrally.
He could play left wing, he has the qualities to play there in the same way that similarly creative players like Mata or Silva or Iniesta have all thrived on the left. There's not even a question over whether he could play there tbh.
But anyway, point is you're being hypocritical. Cina obviously thinks he can't play centre mid, in the same way you think he can't play left wing.
But anyway, point is you're being hypocritical. Cina obviously thinks he can't play centre mid, in the same way you think he can't play left wing.
Selected for the Japan squad apparently.
You're such a fecking gimp. He's more likely to play on the wings than in the middle of our midfield, we only have three wingers.I agree.
He could play there pretty well IMO but we have good wide players so there's no point shifting him out to the wing when he looks really good in the middle.
Maybe to cover an injury or something, but we have lacked a creative point centrally in the final third and I think that's where he's going to be playing the majority of his matches.
You're such a contradiction. Now we have plenty of midfielders so he won't play there but we only have 3 wingers so he will probably play there. Despite the fact we have looked to buy 2 different wingers this year which suggests he is not in our plans for that position and the fact we are looking to buy Van Persie which takes our striking options to 4 (5 if we can't shift Berbatov) which makes it highly likely we will be opting for more than one striker regularly.
Have a think.
Right but how many wingers have we right now in contrast to midfielders?
As I recall, you're the one who used the 'we have loads of midfielders' reasoning behind us not signing any midfielders, yet we have far more of them than wingers. Kagawa has played in neither position yet somehow he's more likely to play as a central midfielder. Ok.
As I recall, you're the one who used the 'we have loads of midfielders' reasoning behind us not signing any midfielders, yet we have far more of them than wingers. Kagawa has played in neither position yet somehow he's more likely to play as a central midfielder. Ok.
Let's be honest Cina. You know feck all about Fergies plans, I know feck all about Fergies plans. I'm speculating, you're speculating.
We have different opinions and it's like hitting your head against a brick wall for the both of us. Let's leave it til a good amount of games have gone by and see what happens. Let's at least let the transfer market close and see what plans Fergie has rather than arguing about pure conjection til we are blue in the face.
Very well said. I think a lot of people here are so desperate for us to sign a new CM that they now start of thinking on how to put other players in that position.
I think it's save to say that if we only play 2 midfielders in the center Kagawa won't be won of them and is more likely to come over the right or left wing.
I'm sure Kagawa has openly declared that he wants to play in "the hole" rather than on the left as he does for Japan. Ferguson appears to see it this way in pre-season.
To play him in central midfield is a waste of his best qualities. Against poorer opposition I would rather younger midfielders such as Powell get game time.
Play players in their best position for feck's sake....otherwise you don't get the best balance in your team.
To play him in central midfield is a waste of his best qualities. Against poorer opposition I would rather younger midfielders such as Powell get game time.
Play players in their best position for feck's sake....otherwise you don't get the best balance in your team.
Agreed. We're missing someone who can consistently control a football and turn to face goal whilst on the edge of the box (or around that area).
Kagawa is that player.
confirmed by phelan, that Kagawa will play the no10 position:
Manchester United No2 Mike Phelan says new arrivals Shinji Kagawa and Nick Powell have settled quickly.
Phelan had words of encouragement for new signings Kagawa and Powell as they continue to integrate with the rest of the squad following their summer arrival.
"We've introduced Shinji into the team now playing in a certain role and we need the other players around him to understand what he can bring to this team," he told MUTV. "The same goes for Nick Powell. He's made a huge jump from Crewe to Manchester United but he needs to learn what it takes to be a regular first-team player because he is a young boy.
"We've seen instances in games, not just games in the main group but also the second group, that he's more than capable of adapting."
http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/football...agawa-powell-bedding-down-quickly-at-man-utd/
It's quality how the management identified that Kagawa signing as being necessary. I'm sure there were some, but I didn't see a single person on here before the rumours saying that we needed another player for the role behind the front man. We've all been crying out for a midfielder of some sort - whether it be someone akin to Martinez or a player like Modric - and perhaps also a left back. Now that he's here, it seems so clear and so obvious how much we've missed that type of player.
So basically you've run out of excuses.
@kingeric: not true. That's why he tried to get Sneijder & Nasri last year
Hmm fair play, but I just don't remember anyone on here this summer saying a player like Kagawa was necessary. Personally, I was stuck firmly in the Javi Martinez camp with everyone else in that forum (don't think that's changed to be fair).
Yeah you are right but we tried so hard last year to get someone who plays a similar role, it goes to show how good Fergie and the scouting team is, sometimes we don't give them enough credit but I believe Kagawa will flourish for us in that role. Interesting season ahead!
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