Yeah and nani hadn't stepped up at that point, not to mention he did it in like a handful of games, plus it didn't exactly go well for him there in terms of his personal game. Now though nani has stepped up his game is easily a much bigger threat that Rooney from out wide.
Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Yeah and nani hadn't stepped up at that point, not to mention he did it in like a handful of games, plus it didn't exactly go well for him there in terms of his personal game. Now though nani has stepped up his game is easily a much bigger threat that Rooney from out wide.
The games in the EPL are far more frantic than in the Bundesliga no matter how Dortmund play. The English game is extremely physical and he'll need to adapt to that.
Don't think he'll have any issue with that, looked happy to get stuck in and took a few bashes with no complaints.
Rooney would lose more from his game if he was put out wide than Welbeck/Kagawa, I don't know about RvP.
Kagawa (even if he would play on the wing) wouldn't play as a typical winger, but rather as a wide forward drifting in, finding spaces and interchanging positions. I agree though, and I've said it myself a hundred times, Kagawa's best position is as a #10, and it was a no brainer for me until we signed RvP, someone has to either be benched or played out of position, and I think Kagawa could cope with it better than any of our strikers.
RVP and Rooney ahead of Kagawa. Kagawa ahead of Carrick and two hard working wingers in Valencia and probably Young.
Get 'er done. 6-3 win every week.
Get 'er done. 6-3 win every week.
I'm not saying he'll have issues with it. He'll need to get used to it. He showed some neat touches & combinations, kept in simple. But also got lost a few times, even getting in the way of other players, and faded in the 2nd half. He'll need more games before he'll really stamp his authority on games like he did in Germany.
Fair enough, I think that's more of an adjustment to a new team. But yeah am sure there will be some differences in the league that he'll find he needs to adjust to.
The way he already looks a step above our other attackers just highlights how much we overrate our own players to a large extent.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/08/21/ferguson-showcases-a-4-2-1-3-against-everton/
Not if Rooney's only playing that wide. I think he would thrive with the space; and he'd allow Evra to make those beautiful runs (Evra offered more in attack than most of our players vs Everton). Interestingly, out of the whole front 4, when RvP came on, Rooney, RvP and Nani (replaced by Young) all changed positions fluidly (except the wingers never went central), but Kagawa stayed central behind those 3, throughout.
Kagawa's got an important role for us, and I think we can fit something like this:
------------------------RvP------------------------
---------Rooney-----Kagawa---------------Winger
which is what we kinda did against Everton, and have it work well; because RvP and Rooney will constantly interchange; and if the winger is Nani, he'll be obviously closer than some traditional winger like Valencia will.
If the whole purpose of bringing in Kagawa and Van Persie was to cut Rooney's impact by half by sticking him on the left wing, I doubt the team will end up better off
Nani works extremely hard as well, in fairness.
I suspect his poor opening showing has counted against him in your selection though...
The pace of the premier league will be a non issue for him. Players like him and Cleverley make up their minds before they get the ball and hence don't need time on the ball to decide what to do so they're rarely ever rushed.
The physicality is a more valid point. I can see him taking time, like all players from other leagues, to get completely used to scrappy games where defenders are really imposing themselves. But again, his ability to think quickly will help him here as well.
I don't know why people blame Nani's work rate.
He's one of the most hard-working wingers around, it's just Valencia's got a claim to being probably THE most hard-working winger around, who can actually beat his man consistently (i.e. not a defensive winger, like say Park, or Hargreaves) and Young's pretty close too in defensive work-rate to that.
Nani's not far behind there, at all.
His game vs Everton isn't going to help him get selected vs Fulham, at all, however.
He's one of the most hard-working wingers around, it's just Valencia's got a claim to being probably THE most hard-working winger around, who can actually beat his man consistently (i.e. not a defensive winger, like say Park, or Hargreaves) and Young's pretty close too in defensive work-rate to that.
Nani's not far behind there, at all.
His game vs Everton isn't going to help him get selected vs Fulham, at all, however.
To be honest if we're gonna drop players after one game then only kagawa will start in attack from the last game. Nani was no worse than Rooney or welbeck and yeah Valencia played right back but he saw plenty of the ball in attack and was equally poor on it.
End of the day you dont drop players after one game. These guys will be angry and eager to make amends. I'd go with the same team and swap welbeck for rvp with kagawa being given freedom to drift from the left and switch with nani and Rooney.
End of the day you dont drop players after one game. These guys will be angry and eager to make amends. I'd go with the same team and swap welbeck for rvp with kagawa being given freedom to drift from the left and switch with nani and Rooney.
Well, he certainly hasn't made himself first name on the team sheet, when there's so much competition.
SAF will think it through; but if he had a blinder, he'd be starting 100%, whereas now, maybe not.
I know that the theory is to stretch the pitch against such organisation. Perhaps it wasn't the tactic of going wide that was the issue, but rather the execution that was errant. Cross after cross found an Everton man, which was probably a result of them packing out the central areas so effectively. It called for a more subtle delivery in my opinion; too often we crossed from innocuous areas with predictable consequences.
Interesting that on the night, some of our best attacking moments resulted from Kagawa's slide rule balls through central areas. That's when we looked most threatening.
That's true of any player. If fergie was truly being objective he could easily justify dropping Rooney and putting rvp in, could take out welbeck as well. Both of them had good opportunities that had they done better who k ows how the game would have turned out.
I think the final ball be it a cross or pass was just a miss (with the exception of Kagawa) really. Always seemed to be a little too short or two far. Probably down to rustiness and going on a round trip of the world didn't help.
We should try him on the left drifting inside next game, it's not his best position but he can adapt to play there better than Rooney.
Thought he was our best player against Everton to be honest. He was making goods runsn and sitting in good space, was just overlooked for the simpler pass.
Once the team gets used to his movement and position i think he'll be great.
Once the team gets used to his movement and position i think he'll be great.
I really really like this guy, I haven't seen much of him but he is so confident on the ball, made 2 or 3 amazing passes, and I noticed that the further into the game we went, the more players like Rooney and Scholes trusted him and he got more and more of the ball. Gary Neville hit the nail on the head after the game by saying we couldn't get the ball into him enough. He seemed to be the only player on the pitch that could cut Everton to ribbons and it is something we have missed in the last 2-3 years. I hope this guy plays every game.
Yeah that's what I reckon. Not ideal but as we have them all we may as well try and use them and this is the best way I can think off. With Evra able to provide width on the left Kagawa should be able to get a lot of freedom to drift. I mean in recent years we've not used a proper left footer on the left since Giggs. Park, nani and young whilst all capable of going down the left, enjoyed/enjoy their best success there cutting in.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/tacticsandanalysis/id/5?cc=3436
Now I'm sure this has been posted on the forum already, but it's a fascinating slant on the Van Persie signing and how that related to Kagawa. It's written by Michael Cox, the brains behind ZonalMarking.com, and was posted before the Everton game, from which the early signs seem to support this tactical theory.
Basically he suggests Fergie is looking to create something of a 4-2-1-3 with Kagawa floating behind three interchangeable forwards, similar to what we had in 08 with Rooney - Ronaldo - Tevez and what Jose's Inter had in Eto'o - Milito - Pandev. It certainly explains the pursuit of Sneijder (as a playmaker) and Hazard (as a wide forward), but raises interesting questions about Valencia - his complete lack of versatility means he can't really be a wide forward, but he is our player of the year and shunting him either out of the team or to right back, as against Everton, seems ridiculous.
Having said that, some combination of Rooney, Van Persie, Nani and Welbeck, with Hernandez and Young to offer something different from the bench, sounds absolutely lethal. Definitely fits the bill in terms of interchangeability, with a constant supply from Kagawa in behind.
Could well be pure speculation but interesting nonetheless.
Now I'm sure this has been posted on the forum already, but it's a fascinating slant on the Van Persie signing and how that related to Kagawa. It's written by Michael Cox, the brains behind ZonalMarking.com, and was posted before the Everton game, from which the early signs seem to support this tactical theory.
Basically he suggests Fergie is looking to create something of a 4-2-1-3 with Kagawa floating behind three interchangeable forwards, similar to what we had in 08 with Rooney - Ronaldo - Tevez and what Jose's Inter had in Eto'o - Milito - Pandev. It certainly explains the pursuit of Sneijder (as a playmaker) and Hazard (as a wide forward), but raises interesting questions about Valencia - his complete lack of versatility means he can't really be a wide forward, but he is our player of the year and shunting him either out of the team or to right back, as against Everton, seems ridiculous.
Having said that, some combination of Rooney, Van Persie, Nani and Welbeck, with Hernandez and Young to offer something different from the bench, sounds absolutely lethal. Definitely fits the bill in terms of interchangeability, with a constant supply from Kagawa in behind.
Could well be pure speculation but interesting nonetheless.
It is interesting about Valencia, he really needs a 4-4-2 to get the best out of him, I don't think he operates nearly as well in a 3 man frontline.
I read that a couple days ago, it's a good article and makes a few good points.
The only bit I disagree with is that of Valencia, not that his "one dimensional" style will be a hindrance to him or this system, because it will. I think that he'll be very much part of a "Plan B". It's always important to have another tactic that is a real contrast to your A Game and 4-2-1-3 and 4-4-2 are Chalk and Cheese in tactical terms.
One has two deep midfielders, a very attacking midfielder in the Trequartista role and the width is supplied by inside forwards who prefer to carry the ball inside than cross it while the other tactic has two midfielders with both attacking and defensive responsibility, wingers who tend to hug the line and two front men who tend to stay central.
Being able to use Valencia a single substitute as an axis to switch from one tactic to the other fluidly would cause a hell of a lot of trouble for teams that might seem comfortable with us playing one way. It's a big ask for any team to adjust from defending against us playing one style to playing a completely different brand, attacking different areas with different players taking up different roles.
That Cox article is very good and I sincerely hope he's right about what Fergie's planning. It sounds infinitely better than somehow shoehorning Kagawa into a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1. As he said, it would be a misuse of resources. Using Welbeck as a wide forward at Goodison Park was encouraging and I believe he's a perfect fit for the role (even though he did not play well on Monday), the concern is more about Rooney who sometimes tends to play as a traditional and bit shit winger when deployed wide.
"The summer of 2009 meant an unplanned change. Tevez and Ronaldo left the club" - this sentence is stupid though. We had a whole year to prepare for Ronaldo's departure and Tévez was essentially a loan, it didn't exactly come out of the blue.
"The summer of 2009 meant an unplanned change. Tevez and Ronaldo left the club" - this sentence is stupid though. We had a whole year to prepare for Ronaldo's departure and Tévez was essentially a loan, it didn't exactly come out of the blue.
@Pexbo
Definitely makes sense, but I'd still say it would be very harsh to drop him to the bench purely as an impact player given that he should be one of the first names on the team sheet after his performance over last season. Perhaps that's why Fergie looks to want to convert him into a full back, though I think we lose a huge part of his game, where he hugs the touch line and consistently beats the man to get cross after cross in from the right. Can't do that anywhere near as often from full back, and we haven't even discussed his defensive/positional weaknesses yet.
Definitely makes sense, but I'd still say it would be very harsh to drop him to the bench purely as an impact player given that he should be one of the first names on the team sheet after his performance over last season. Perhaps that's why Fergie looks to want to convert him into a full back, though I think we lose a huge part of his game, where he hugs the touch line and consistently beats the man to get cross after cross in from the right. Can't do that anywhere near as often from full back, and we haven't even discussed his defensive/positional weaknesses yet.
That's true, but we still lost two of our most influential forward players and, whether planned or not, that meant a drastic change in our forward-thinking tactics.
He was the only player I was scared of during the game. Our fullbacks played well but Kagawa split us a couple of times, and if our Cb's weren't on top form it could have been a different story.
This is obviously completely unrealistic but I've been trying to think of a left winger who could play that role, imagine if we got Bale and played him for Young in that line-up. It could work very well, Bale is basically the left sided version of Valencia.
I dunno the thing about the 08 team is whilst there was some interchange along the front line I don't think it was as fluid as people remember. There were moments where Rooney might end up left or right, and Ronaldo through the middle, but generally it was Rooney through the middle, Tevez in the hole and Ronaldo out wide.
With the current team, were it Rooney in the hole, RVP upfront and Nani and kagawa wide then I think it could work. But I don't think shifting Rooney or RVP wide as there base position will go that well. Rooney has never looked comfortable there and doesn't carry the ball well enough imo. RVP could do it but then why put him there when he could get you a tonne through the middle.
I think in general we'll see Kagawa drift in from the left with maybe some tough games where we'll go 433 with Rooney on the left, but like I said don't think he offers much there.
With the current team, were it Rooney in the hole, RVP upfront and Nani and kagawa wide then I think it could work. But I don't think shifting Rooney or RVP wide as there base position will go that well. Rooney has never looked comfortable there and doesn't carry the ball well enough imo. RVP could do it but then why put him there when he could get you a tonne through the middle.
I think in general we'll see Kagawa drift in from the left with maybe some tough games where we'll go 433 with Rooney on the left, but like I said don't think he offers much there.
That's an interest article and I think if we could make that sort of system work it could be really devastating. But it will require a lot of adapting from the players in question. Van Persie has recently been converted by Wenger into a goalscoring beast who focuses his attentions of goal getting. Rooney has developed into a player I wouldn't like to see drifting wide. He too has become more about goals IMO. Welbeck again likes to play those intricate passes around the box but he's never struck me as someone who would do well drifting out wide.
All three strikers have the ability to make that sort of system work, not to mention Nani who has enough talent to work as part of such a trio, but it seems like a lot would have to be worked on by these players to make it happen.
All three strikers have the ability to make that sort of system work, not to mention Nani who has enough talent to work as part of such a trio, but it seems like a lot would have to be worked on by these players to make it happen.
To be honest, the best way to try and make it happen at this point is:
- RVP in his usual position, the position he played the best football of his career in.
- Nani in his best position, coming in from the right as a wing-forward.
- Rooney in his usual position, starting just behind the front.
- Kagawa in the position he fills for his country, interchanging ALL the time with Rooney.
I don't really want Kagawa shifted but I just think he'd do a miles better job at it than Rooney would, and if the 2 interchange as much as we'd like, it wouldn't be an issue. This way every player is playing in a role they already are very comfortable in.
When I said Valencia could be used as a "single substitute" I meant substitute as a verb rather than a noun. If he is in form and the 4-4-2 is working then there is no reason for us to start with it.
Also, I think we would decide on tactics depending on opposition, if they have a weak left back, let Tony rape him, if they have weak centre-backs, let Kagawa toy with them and the strikers pull them all over the place.
This. The only problem i really have is val would have to be stored dropped or played as a rright back. wouldn't be happy with that as he is such a brilliant player. wouldn't work.differently though I guess.
This is probably the best solution, I'd rather see Kagawa out wide than Rooney or RvP or Welbeck. There will be plenty of games where we'll have to play more conservatively with Kagawa behind a single striker anyway.
Well the issue is, one of our brilliant players is going to have to be dropped, be it Nani, Valencia, Kagawa, Rooney or RVP.
In this system Valencia is the obvious one, but he'd also have plenty of chances to dislodge Nani I'm sure.
Thing is though, both Rooney and Van Persie love to drop off and play engage in interplay. Both have become regular goalscorers, but neither is an out and out centre forward and both love to drift around. Add a goalscoring winger to the fold in Nani/Young and you have an incredibly fluent front line that will excel with their interchange and the opposition defence won't have a clue who to pick up. I agree that Rooney out wide is a waste but he wouldn't be playing out wide per se, rather drifting in from wide positions into goalscoring positions and deeper to create play, which is exactly what Van Persie will be doing. I'd assume Nani would do the same, minus the shift up top.
The TV team sheet would probably read 4-4-2 with Kagawa on the left, yet in reality he would probably slot in just ahead of the central two and the front three would not have fixed positions but Van Persie would probably be referred to as 'the lone striker', despite being nothing of the sort. Even with this as our primary tactic, Hernandez and Valencia would be superb substitutes given their pace and the fact that their inclusion would change the side's shape entirely. Giggs, Welbeck and Young could all slot into that formation as it is. Only thing I'd worry about is who deputises when Kagawa is out - Giggs seems to be better off the bench and hasn't always thrived when starting in such a role. Powell, Petrucci and/or Lingard could have a say in there I guess.
Either way, it'll be interesting to see how Fergie's tactical outlook changes over the coming weeks as we see whether these are his plans and how the players adapt to them if they are.
The TV team sheet would probably read 4-4-2 with Kagawa on the left, yet in reality he would probably slot in just ahead of the central two and the front three would not have fixed positions but Van Persie would probably be referred to as 'the lone striker', despite being nothing of the sort. Even with this as our primary tactic, Hernandez and Valencia would be superb substitutes given their pace and the fact that their inclusion would change the side's shape entirely. Giggs, Welbeck and Young could all slot into that formation as it is. Only thing I'd worry about is who deputises when Kagawa is out - Giggs seems to be better off the bench and hasn't always thrived when starting in such a role. Powell, Petrucci and/or Lingard could have a say in there I guess.
Either way, it'll be interesting to see how Fergie's tactical outlook changes over the coming weeks as we see whether these are his plans and how the players adapt to them if they are.
For me, if we're talking about right hand side the obvious player to be dropped in such a case is Nani with the last being Valencia. I don't buy the argument for the opposite, he is our best RM full stop.
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