Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

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This "backward and sideways" arguement sounds exactly like the thing people say about Carrick.

Guess what? If the forwards aren't getting into good enough positions quick enough, then the best way to keep hold of the ball is to pass it sideways or backwards.

Would you rather he start lumping aimless balls upfield?
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
He was forced to be conservative because he was playing with Scholes. Everton away is one game in which we didn't need Schloes on pitch from the start.
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I thought this was the case. In an ideal world, he'll have Carrick mopping up behind him, freeing him to go forward. In the circumstances, I thought it was a solid game from Tom.
 
He was fine. The problem yesterday wasn't the midfield. It was pretty much everything else.
 
Feed Me said:
I thought this was the case. In an ideal world, he'll have Carrick mopping up behind him, freeing him to go forward. In the circumstances, I thought it was a solid game from Tom.
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Tom was fine. He impersonated Carrick pretty well. It' his partner that was the handicap to him and the team. In a game like that and away from home Schoels would have been a bigger weapon off the bench.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Tom was fine. He impersonated Carrick pretty well. It' his partner that was the handicap to him and the team. In a game like that and away from home Schoels would have been a bigger weapon off the bench.
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I thought Cleverley was a bit subdued in the first half if I'm honest. Like he was afraid of cocking up (perhaps understandable). When we went 1 down I expected him to shrink so was delighted to actually see him step it up.

I was gutted when he went off instead of Scholes.
 
cw1984 said:
I thought Cleverley was a bit subdued in the first half if I'm honest. Like he was afraid of cocking up (perhaps understandable). When we went 1 down I expected him to shrink so was delighted to actually see him step it up.

I was gutted when he went off instead of Scholes.
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Just like me. I believe like Evra in the first half he was asked to be conservative.
 
We were very open in CM.

The problem with Scholes these days in high energy encounters is he can't go forward because he's not got the legs, and his partner can't go forward because Scholes can't cover for him defensively. Which in turn means a very static and flat CM duo, which in turn means Noodles patented zombie midfield rearing it's ugly head.
 
marjen said:
We were very open in CM.

The problem with Scholes these days in high energy encounters is he can't go forward because he's not got the legs, and his partner can't go forward because Scholes can't cover for him defensively. Which in turn means a very static and flat CM duo, which in turn means Noodles patented zombie midfield rearing it's ugly head.
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Which is why we simply shouldn't have recalled Scholes; we should have bit the bullet and sign a fecking CM. Fergie's gotta learn to move on from his golden oldies.
 
Siorac said:
Which is why we simply shouldn't have recalled Scholes; we should have bit the bullet and sign a fecking CM. Fergie's gotta learn to move on from his golden oldies.
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Not saying we shouldn't have signed a CM but arguing about Scholes coming back is a bit stupid. But for Scholes we wouldn't have even been close last season.
 
cw1984 said:
Not saying we shouldn't have signed a CM but arguing about Scholes coming back is a bit stupid. But for Scholes we wouldn't have even been close last season.
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That's still no reason to give him another contract instead of actually strengthening the midfield. Everyone keeps saying that he can still do a job and can be brilliant at home, against lower opposition - but you just know that Fergie is going to stick him in there at Goodison Park, at Anfield, at the Etihad and we're going to be outfought and overrun again.

Scholes needs someone to cover for him defensively, must not be closed down and harassed because he can't deal with that anymore (not regularly during the 90 minutes; I'm not saying he can't play his way out of trouble once or twice). There are way too many conditions that must be met if we want Scholes to be useful. He'd be a fine luxury player but Fergie doesn't use him that way, he clearly regards him as a key player.
 
I'd say it's more a case that we shouldn't have needed to recall Scholes. Obviously when the time came we had no choice.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with passing the ball sideways and backwards, so long as you make the occasional progressive pass when it's on. Which he did.
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I've just checked his stats on FourFourTwo app and kept the ball well with 78/85 passes made and 24/26 in the attacking third. Had plenty of forward passes too seeing as that was one criticism. He was also 5 out 5 on tackles.

So everything he originally said was pretty much made up.
 
Scholes shouldn't be playing in games like that anymore because he's not fit enough or quick enough. We should have started Anderson, and if we can't trust him then I'm not sure why we haven't added another player. A bit of extra energy instead of Scholes last night in that deepest CM role would have gone a long way.
 
Trigg said:
I've just checked his stats on FourFourTwo app and kept the ball well with 78/85 passes made and 24/26 in the attacking third. Had plenty of forward passes too seeing as that was one criticism. He was also 5 out 5 on tackles.

So everything he originally said was pretty much made up.
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Thanks for the stats. Only the idiots on the Caf could see that as a bad performance.
 
I thought he was fine on the ball, good ideas in attack it just didn't come off as senior players like nani and rooney and even valencia couldn't produce. He's got issues defensively but they're made to be a bigger issue because he's next to scholes who simply shouldn't play in the sort of matches. He was fine on the ball but off it he was an issue and could easily have been sent off. Personally I think if we really want clev to excel he needs a partner who can cover for his lack of experience when it comes to the defensive aspect of the game.
 
Oh yeah, this thread was about Cleverley. He was OK. Was actually willing to run with the ball and drag opponents out of position; that's something our midfield often lacks.

Needs to learn a lot, needs Carrick beside him.
 
He played okay, but that miss was horrific, it was effectively an open goal.
 
Chabon said:
He played okay, but that miss was horrific, it was effectively an open goal.
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he didnt miss, it was cleared off the line.

Sure he still should of powered it in imo, he took the safe option and tried to place it.

Sometimes it just isnt your day, give it another 9/10 goes and it goes in everytime, such be our luck.
 
He prefers the side footed shot over putting his foot through it, he done the same in the first half with a woeful side footed attempt, and i remember when he was in against Arsenal in the 8-2, he done the same and cocked it up. Hopefully he will become more confident infront of goal as the season progresses if the chances fall his way.
 
Confirmed what we know about him. Assured, at times inventive in possession, positionally naive, at times exposed when we're not. All about the right composition of the midfield where Tom is concerned. Still an exciting player.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Good thing he didn't miss then.

Probably should have roofed it but I'd always far rather someone make sure they hit the target in that situation. Brilliant recovery by Jagielka.
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He probably should have aimed anywhere but the far corner, when the entire half of the net nearer to him was wide open. It was a great block by Jagielka, but he should never in a million years have had the chance to make it.
 
Chabon said:
He probably should have aimed anywhere but the far corner, when the entire half of the net nearer to him was wide open. It was a great block by Jagielka, but he should never in a million years have had the chance to make it.
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He actually hit it down the middle. It was a percentage shot, making absolutely sure he hit the target. Harsh to criticism him for it.
 
I thought Cleverley and Scholes played well and are a partnership I'd happily play in the next game. Carrick-Cleverley first-choice partnership for me. I've no idea what this whole zombie passing thing is about though, since when did every one of your front six have to burst forward at every chance for it not to be called zombie passing?! 4231's been the go-to formation for most teams for ages now and having a midfielder who sits deep consistently is an essential part of that...do Madrid do zombie passing because Alonso sits deep? Cleverley got forward just as much as Khedira, and got far more involved in the attacking play.

Strange stuff. I thought Cleverley's performance was really encouraging. It was the attacking play/movement that wasn't good enough.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with passing the ball sideways and backwards, so long as you make the occasional progressive pass when it's on. Which he did.
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He did, but to no effect. It's hard to say whether a sideways pass is right or wrong out of context. I thought he looked sharp last night and confident, but he was part of the malaise that we suffered from going forward, no real incision or no real bite. You can have one player that just keeps things ticking over ... ideally until someone does something or makes a run or spots a gap. Last night we just kept things ticking over until we sped it up and misjudged a pass or had a heavy touch. Cleverley didn't do much wrong for me, but he didn't do much right either. One of the main areas we suffered in last night which we should have been able to deal with was the second ball at the base of our midfield, mainly off Fellaini, and that 'blame' lies with Cleverley as much as anyone.

I think taking 4 centre backs out of a squad will efffect the psyche of a team and everyone in it, especially when it's expoited the way Everton did. Hard game to analyse with so many injuries in one area of the team.
 
moses said:
He did, but to no effect. It's hard to say whether a sideways pass is right or wrong out of context. I thought he looked sharp last night and confident, but he was part of the malaise that we suffered from going forward, no real incision or no real bite. You can have one player that just keeps things ticking over ... ideally until someone does something or makes a run or spots a gap. Last night we just kept things ticking over until we sped it up and misjudged a pass or had a heavy touch. Cleverly didn't do much wrong for me, but he didn't do much right either. One of the main areas we suffered in last night which we should have been able to deal with was the second ball at the base of our midfield, mainly off Fellaini, and that 'blame' lies with Cleverley as much as anyone.

I think taking 4 centre backs out of a squad will efffect the psyche of a team and everyone in it, especially when it's expoited the way Everton did. Hard game to analyse with so many injuries in one area of the team.
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That bit I agree with but I think you're being harsh on his contribution going forwards. I thought his passing was progressive enough and it was always going to be Kagawa - rather than Cleverley - who got most involved in the final third. Cleverley's primary role when we were in possession was to keep things ticking over and to feed the ball into the feet of Kagawa and Rooney when he had the chance. I thought he did that very well.

That said, I only watched the second half.
 
We were collectively slightly better in the second half, but I think that Kagawa is the only outfield player that rose above the dross. I'm not hammering them or judging them beyond one game, but in the 90 minutes I feel that he didn't do enough. It's a team game and any given player has it in him to lift the team, and a lot of days any team will need lifting. The centre of the park is the easist place to grab a game by and he certainly didn't do that. Keeping things ticking over is only ok on a good day. On a bad day you have to do a bit more. I'm not singling him out, at all, just saying he blended into the ineffectual attack.

edit - he did get the ball to kagawa, but then the movement was poor, we had lots of the ball and lots of bodies forward, but still surprisingly few options. We were caught betweem formations in a way, almost a cityesque narrowness at times, until we went one down and started to cross it.
 
Thought he had another good game and plenty of positives on the attack. Surely due a goal soon. Still think he needs to work on the defensive aspect of his game though, works hard but needs to learn that he doesn't always need to go straight for the ball and to sometimes defend the space. Quick closing down is good if you're a relatively narrow team and everyone is on the same wavelength. In our set up though you're taking a risk.
 
Ash_G said:
Thought he had another good game and plenty of positives on the attack. Surely due a goal soon. Still think he needs to work on the defensive aspect of his game though, works hard but needs to learn that he doesn't always need to go straight for the ball and to sometimes defend the space. Quick closing down is good if you're a relatively narrow team and everyone is on the same wavelength. In our set up though you're taking a risk.
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He is a bit of a baby in terms of playing Centre-Mid, was more advanced and out wide for Watford and Wigan.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
He is a bit of a baby in terms of playing Centre-Mid, was more advanced and out wide for Watford and Wigan.
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Yeah that's what I thought. That why I think it would have been good for us to get another midfielder in who can cover for that. Ando was decent defensively today, particularly first half, but even he is guilty of some of the same mistakes although I think he has a better understanding of that aspect than Clev does. Still something both can work on.
 
Decent game in an attacking sense where he kept the ball ticking over and played some intelligent passes. A bit selfish around the edge of the box though, could have played in the strikers but went for the shot. But defensively that he's a bit of a worry for me. Both he and Anderson are just not strong enough for me. Dembele just shrugged them aside more then a few times and they did nothing to stop him from dominating.
 
Anderson looks a much better player next to Cleverley. They play on the same wavelength which is good. Cleverley staying fit is key for us.

Also means we dont have to depend on Scholes and Giggs and instead can use them as the luxury subs they should be.
 
He looked pretty good.. hammered a few shots outside the box.. which we lag when Scholes is not playing.. one of them was a goal...
Some neat passes and a few threaded balls too... which should have done better..
Defensively , we looked bad.. but could be because we have Carrick playing in the back.. and we dont even have defenders...
Should be a gem of a player..
 
Sylar said:
Anderson looks a much better player next to Cleverley. They play on the same wavelength which is good. Cleverley staying fit is key for us.

Also means we dont have to depend on Scholes and Giggs and instead can use them as the luxury subs they should be.
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They do play well together but I think that they can only really be used in home games like this where we tend to control the match and dominate. Against teams who attack us they'll leave too much space in behind in the midfield.
 
Well I mean it's fair enough that they can't out muscle him, I'm not really concerned there, I mean he out muscled valencia at least once. If he can do that he'll out muscle anyone in our team. Like I said I think the positioning is the problem at the moment. Against Everton there was too much room for fellani to do what he wanted and today there was so much space for Dembele to go in to, we were always chasing after him rather than being able to force him out wide or something. Fulham didn't make the most of it but they had plenty of decent positions.
 
Looks like he works well with Anderson. Their passing was brilliant.

Needs to work on their defensive game though.
 
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