Then you have a weak central midfield again, playing Nani doesn't begin to solve the problem. Plenty of teams don't have to play with a wide man stuck on the wing all the time. It's a great option to have in the last 30 minutes if you need a breakthrough (something City didn't have) bringing on Scholes and Nani/Valencia to stretch a game, but for most of the game you need to be subtler than that.
Shinji Kagawa
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Then you have a weak central midfield again, playing Nani doesn't begin to solve the problem. Plenty of teams don't have to play with a wide man stuck on the wing all the time. It's a great option to have in the last 30 minutes if you need a breakthrough (something City didn't have) bringing on Scholes and Nani/Valencia to stretch a game, but for most of the game you need to be subtler than that.
No it doesn't have to be weak. Clev and Ando can improve with experience. That's where their problems are. Ando anyway is more about consistency and fitness, he's got a good defensive understanding. Then if you actually have Rooney/Kagawa at the tip of the midfield that will give stability. Alternatively if Fletcher gets back to his old self for the tough games you have both him and Carrick. Then you get the defensive stability and whilst not top notch creativity in the middle, both can create and certainly keep the ball moving well for the other players.
Sure other teams don't play with width but we don't have to be like that. You can use width you just have to get the balance right and at the moment we're not. Anyway the likes of Rooney although they can play wide aren't the best there and don't play in the way of say a Silva, Nasri, mata, Hazard etc, they don't carry the ball well. Playing that way could lead to just as much creative frustration in the same way we've seen from Arsenal in the past.
We've learned before playing Rooney or Kagawa infront of a midfield 2 doesn't offer the same protection, if you leave out Carrick then you don't get the covering protection, if you leave out either Ando or Cleverley and you lose the pressing required.
It's not about playing wide, thats the whole point, you saw against Newcastle the width comes from players behind naturally filling the spaces.
From the newbie samurai_foot26.
PL 5 apps, 2 goals, 1 assist.
CL 1 app, 1 assist.
Love how he's hit the ground running.
PL 5 apps, 2 goals, 1 assist.
CL 1 app, 1 assist.
Love how he's hit the ground running.
I think he's been largely positive for us. But equally IMO we're not using him to the best of his abilities.
His game is dependant on close proximity to other players, above everything else. We need to get runners from midfield forward who he can link up with, and we need our wingers to start using him to combine on the edge of the box. Only Nani has at times tried to involve him from wide areas.
Also, we need to push our midfield up so there's not a huge gap between them and Kagawa, launching 40-yard passes into him with the opposition payers given plenty of time to intercept/go in hard on him isn't the solution.
His game is dependant on close proximity to other players, above everything else. We need to get runners from midfield forward who he can link up with, and we need our wingers to start using him to combine on the edge of the box. Only Nani has at times tried to involve him from wide areas.
Also, we need to push our midfield up so there's not a huge gap between them and Kagawa, launching 40-yard passes into him with the opposition payers given plenty of time to intercept/go in hard on him isn't the solution.
Jaysus, he has been subbed alot this year hasnt he 
He is settling in quicker than I thought. With us generally playing a new system, the team as a whole is learning. Once we up the tempo that little bit, the quick link up potential between him, Cleverley/Rooney/RVP/possibly Welbeck too will be unreal
He has all the potential there for everyone to see.
He is settling in quicker than I thought. With us generally playing a new system, the team as a whole is learning. Once we up the tempo that little bit, the quick link up potential between him, Cleverley/Rooney/RVP/possibly Welbeck too will be unreal
He has all the potential there for everyone to see.At this rate we'll end up with him turning into a Ji-Sung Park who can "do a job" in the big games due to his workrate.
It's astonishing how unsuited our current style of play is to him. It's a good thing that he's still producing under these circumstances I suppose, because him and RvP are starved of service, completely.
It's astonishing how unsuited our current style of play is to him. It's a good thing that he's still producing under these circumstances I suppose, because him and RvP are starved of service, completely.
Yeah but then there's an even bigger gap between Midfield and Defence
. Seriously I think Kagawa is still used to a system where the team presses high up the field, he needs to either drop deeper or we need to play younger players.Jaysus, he has been subbed alot this year hasnt he
Hardly surprising, the PL is a tough league to adjust to physically.
Didn't he used to get subbed often at Dortmund? Or did I imagine that.
Yeah but then there's an even bigger gap between Midfield and Defence
I'm talking about when we have the ball.
We need to get one of our midfield players closer to him.
I'm btw of the opinion that we should adopt a high-pressing approach in most matches, but that opinion, it seems, isn't shared by the people in charge at OT. Only when we go 2-0 down.
I mean in Zarlaks screen-grab. In 2012, he played 16 times for Dortmund, came off 11 times, came on once. So he played 5 full games. Obviously I dont know the games he came off in, for all I know they could have been 10-0 up and be came off in the 90th minute.
Yeah sorry, thought you were referring to his time here.
He's basically our Oezil then
He's basically our Oezil then
Cleverley? The only issue is with Carrick-Scholes is if one of them try to support them they're fecked when we lose the ball.
Showing some great signs just 6 games in. Would like to see TC push up and combine with him.
Cleverley, Anderson, or both.
We can't have it both ways. If we want to adapt our system, and utilize players like Kagawa, we need to have a midfield who's set up for it. And we probably need to do something with our pressing game, because pressing low and keeping it tight at the back isn't the strengths of players like Cleverley or Ando, and Carrick/Scholes can't even keep it tight while sitting in their own half these days.
I'm not sure about the position he's currently occupying for us.
For some reason, I got the impression that he'd be playing a bit deeper than he is, and that he'd be more integral to our build up play.
We're not getting the best out of him as things stand.
Another bugbear is that he seems to be getting the ball a lot with his back to goal. For me, we need to get him into attacking positions with him on the front foot, moving towards the goals. We're blunting his dangerousness by feeding innocuous balls into him with his back to goal.
I think he's underwhelmed so far, but it's not his fault. I'm disappointed that we signed a player widely considered to be potentially world class, but we don't seem to know how to bring the best out of him.
For some reason, I got the impression that he'd be playing a bit deeper than he is, and that he'd be more integral to our build up play.
We're not getting the best out of him as things stand.
Another bugbear is that he seems to be getting the ball a lot with his back to goal. For me, we need to get him into attacking positions with him on the front foot, moving towards the goals. We're blunting his dangerousness by feeding innocuous balls into him with his back to goal.
I think he's underwhelmed so far, but it's not his fault. I'm disappointed that we signed a player widely considered to be potentially world class, but we don't seem to know how to bring the best out of him.
I don't think we should leave out carrick I meant have him with one of those guys and a Rooney or kagawa just ahead. I think that would work well. If we needed to be particularly solid that bring in fletch next to carrick.
Well that was against a poor Newcastle team, doesn't mean it would happen all the time. And anyway you just have to look at arsenal who imo have had better on the ball players than clev and ando and still struggled by playing a similar set up. It could be ok it could also lead to a lot of frustration against organised teams and as I've said nani and Valencia aren't squad players. I think including one of them particularly if in good form would give the team an extra dimension.
Just seems like we could utilise him alot better than we currently have. It doesn't help that our central midfield sits much too deep at times to provide him support. I really hope we sort out our formation and actually become more cohesive because just look at what he can do as evidenced by the second half of the Spurs match.
He's a bit meh when he receives the ball to his feet. He gets brushed off by his marker or just recycles posession. We need to start playing him more through balls.
Yet he is racking up goals and assists. Imagine how good he'll turn out to be.
Yet he is racking up goals and assists. Imagine how good he'll turn out to be.
Fwiw, where he is playing now is exactly where he played for Dortmund. Almost more of a second striker than a CAM.
I do agree about the back to goal thing though. The problem is not so much he receives it with his back to goal, but the lack of options when he does. Because our central midfielders don't join the attack, he ends up with the option of playing it back, trying to turn or playing it wide. What he needs is players closer to him to play one twos with. For that we need Ando or Clev imo.
Midfield is one thing but I think that sort of link up is more to do with how wide we play an how little movement there is from wide. Nani aside no one on the wing really makes any runs across the goal so there's little opportunity for kagawa to put someone through. Likewise because they're usually so wide it restricts his link up. I think having width is fine but we need to work on mixing that up with some central play. For kagawa especially I think if we are going to keep with lots if width he should be moved back a bit so that when he gets the ball the wingers are closer to him, atm he has to wait for support from them.
loved his goal against Spurs, great first touch and nice finish
If he's this good when not used properly and not given great service, imagine how good he'll be when the team gels and things start clicking on the field.
Hopefully we see him in a deeper role to see how he does.
I have questioned before on here how good he might be in a CM role. He certainly has the vision and passing but I suppose a lot depends on his discipline and defensive contributions
I mean without Cleverley AND Anderson, i.e you need 2 of them.
We'll see how no wingers works today.
I don't think you need both and yeah guess we will. Still again not exactly the toughest team. Anyway I didn't say we have to have wingers just that you can easily become just as reliant on central play if you go to far the other way. Long term regardless of how well this goes I'd be highly surprised if fergie leaves out both nani and Valencia. Looks like a big standard 433 that we've seen in Europe before.
I agree with everything Marjen has said on this page.
Today would actually have been a perfect game for Kagawa, we were playing more narrow than normal and Clev, Ando and Rooney were knocking it around well in the middle with Fletcher keeping everything ticking over. Maybe he just needed the rest
Today would actually have been a perfect game for Kagawa, we were playing more narrow than normal and Clev, Ando and Rooney were knocking it around well in the middle with Fletcher keeping everything ticking over. Maybe he just needed the rest
Yeah I think he would have had a bigger impact than Hernandez that always struggle a bit when it is tight.
Would like to see RVP lead the line with Kagawa playing the withdrawn role along with Rooney. If we are going to play a 4-3-3 formation then it has to incude Kagawa as he is the best option we have when playing through the middle.
Apparently there's Japanese and Dortmund fans hanging around Old Trafford today singing Kagawa songs.
Apparently there's Japanese and Dortmund fans hanging around Old Trafford today singing Kagawa songs.
Quick someone living close to Old Trafford go out and take some pictures or even better a video of this. Fans coming to Manchester to watch their club's game at Etihad always visit Old Trafford
Fans coming to Manchester to watch their club's game at Etihad always visit Old Trafford
I find it a bit surprising so many people seem to believe Kagawa is better than Rooney playing behind the strikers. In the tiny sample of games we have seen him play, versus the years Rooney has been the main man for us, with all we have achieved in that time. Especially considering until relatively recently most people assumed playing in the hole was his best position (I still want to see him play there more).
Id be amazed if Kagawa was better at it than Rooney to be honest. If he is we are very lucky indeed.
Id be amazed if Kagawa was better at it than Rooney to be honest. If he is we are very lucky indeed.
We're the anti-Dortmund at the moment so you'd really expect there to be a settling in period. Coming from one of the worlds most aggresive and quick counter-attacking teams to AC Zombie United. The likes of Lewandowski, Götze, Grosskreutz were always coming inside to make themselves available to him and there wasn't a massive gap between him and the midfield. In the first half against Spurs he was alone in a ball park with no one to play with.
I hope we play with a similiar team like we did in that second half against Newcastle, to let Tiote focus his energy more on Rooney instead of him.
I hope we play with a similiar team like we did in that second half against Newcastle, to let Tiote focus his energy more on Rooney instead of him.
Rooney and Kagawa are two different, talented players, incorporating a system that can fit the two of them (and van Persie) is a challenge.
The only comparison between the two, for me, is that their best position appears to be behind the striker.
The only comparison between the two, for me, is that their best position appears to be behind the striker.
This.
What some fans think Kagawa can do better than Rooney is operate and keep hold of the ball in tight spaces (at least once he acclimatizes to the physicality of the league), something Rooney can sometimes struggle to do. It's not like Kagawa is going to score the amount of goals Rooney does and also manage to do that. They offer different things because they are quite different players.
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