Well spotted, cheers. I really have to stop posting while writing essays...
Berbatov | Fulham player
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Well spotted, cheers. I really have to stop posting while writing essays...
Sorry I've got to understand this right....
Are you telling me that in the first half of the season Hernandez started 12 games without scoring?
And that he had a run of 4 starts, followed by further run of 4 starts, followed by a further run of 4 starts in the first half of that season?
I find that very hard to believe. In fact, I'd wager a fair bit of cash that he didn't even start 12 games. And that he never started even as many as 2 games in a row.
Hernandez seems a strange player to be bringing up in the first place. Rooney was the player who Berbatov was able to effectively replace for half the season or more, and god knows Rooney/Berbatov and Hernandez play different enough roles. Yes, Berba supplied a lot of the goals which Rooney wasn't able to, but he also did a lot of the playmaking which is normally Wayne's job.
Look at the 7-1 defeat of Blackburn. Berbatov scored 5, but he also completely ran that show in a way that Hernandez never could have, regardless of his form. That was why that season was such a good time for Berbatov to have his best for us, because he was probably the only person in the squad who could replace Rooney's contribution both in terms of scoring and playmaking.
Look at the 7-1 defeat of Blackburn. Berbatov scored 5, but he also completely ran that show in a way that Hernandez never could have, regardless of his form. That was why that season was such a good time for Berbatov to have his best for us, because he was probably the only person in the squad who could replace Rooney's contribution both in terms of scoring and playmaking.
To ask you a question. One you wouldn't answer and took on a different tangent.
I wouldn't answer?
By "who said it was", my answer was, yes, if he scored in half the games he played then it was a good record. I thought that was obvious, otherwise I'd have said "no, it's not good".
And if you mean, to ask me a question about how many games he started in total, well, you got that answered before I got chance to reply, hence why I didn't answer it. See below...
Best eyes in the premier league, say what you want about him.
Yes, you didn't answer. The question was, how many games did he start? Given you were so able to give the games he didn't score in I thought you'd able to tell me how many he'd started in total. The second sentence wasn't a question. It was a statement. You agreeing with it isn't an answer. The response given by another poster was appearances. Not starts.
No, he had a run of 4 games without scoring, then later another run of 4 games without scoring and then later another run of 4 games without scoring.
After New Year the biggest run of games without scoring was 2 games which is really impressive.
So while Chicharito is my favorite player, I think that he needed a little time to settle in the team, and during that time Berbatov did some good job.
42 appearances, from them 32 were as a starter.
He scored 21 goals which were scored in 11 games.
So what you're saying is, he went 4 games not scoring but also not starting? starting maybe 1 or at most 2 of the 4 games?
Weird stats to use them. One of the runs you are talking about is, a sub appearance v Newcastle, a full game v Fulham followed by missing 2 games, then a start vs. Rangers playing in a crap United team, then missed a game, then a start v Scunthorpe playing in a crap United team.
And then he gets a run in the team alongside the actual first team, starting 4 of 4 games and does better? go figure
He had some league achievements. Is that really all you pictured when he became our record signing? Much lesser players have achieved a lot more.
So what you're saying is, he went 4 games not scoring but also not starting? starting maybe 1 or at most 2 of the 4 games?
Weird stats to use them.
And then he gets a run in the team, starting 4 of 4 games and does better? go figure
I don't have the stats in how many games of them he started and in how many he came as a sub. But, it was only at late March or early April when he basically started in every game, while the form of him changed after New Year.
Edit: I found them. In 2 of these runs he started in 3 games. On the other he started on 2 games.
One of the runs you are talking about is, a sub appearance v Newcastle, a full game v Fulham followed by missing 2 games, then a start vs. Rangers playing in a crap United team, then missed a game, then a start v Scunthorpe playing in a crap United team.
The next run of "4 without a goal" the only one worthwhile mentioning, with 3 starts and a sub appearance sandwiched between.
The final run of 4 was 3 sub appearances and 1 start.
Very misleading stats.
Lies.
In the final 4 he started just 1 game.
As I already pointed out, in the first 4 he played in 2 games where we were awful and he was playing with a crap team, far from the first team.
The only 4 worth mentioning are the middle 4.
Taking into account only games he played:
http://www.manchesterunited-mad.co....season_140/javier_hernandez_43020/index.shtml
stats are a little different
http://www.manchesterunited-mad.co....season_140/javier_hernandez_43020/index.shtml
stats are a little different
confirms my post:
28/12/2010 Premier League Birmingham C. 1-1 Man. Utd. * 0
26/12/2010 Premier League Man. Utd. * 2-0 Sunderland 0
30/11/2010 League Cup West Ham Utd. 4-0 Man. Utd. 0
24/11/2010 Champions League Rangers 0-1 Man. Utd. * 0
* indicates sub appearance.
You're right, missed the asterisk on the Sunderland game.
Anyway, if we want to continue this can we go in Chicha's thread cause one of the mods will kill us tomorrow. It's Berba's thread here.
ok, moved....
Looks like Berbs is turning into a bit of a Ronaldo over at Fulham. Having hissy fits and throwing his arms about at his teammates in this evenings game.
I love Berbatov, but that hardly sounds like anything new.
..actually he used to do that a bit when he was with us...
He looks a lot more cocky at Fulham.
...probably feels a bit superior to his teamates...couldn't really feel that at united.
I fail to understand why this thread is bumped every week. He's gone, yet Berba-lovers won't let it go.
this is precisely why fulham fits him.
they lost, but so what, it's not the end of the world, he can go home, have a nice cuppa, do some squirrel watching, go to a show without a care in the world, smoke a cigar and turn in for the night.
no mental anguish, no pressure, no worries, no hairdryers, no feeling as if you've let down ten's of millions.....berb is in his element.
plus he can lord over his less gifted teammates and feel good about himself even in a loss.
classic big fish, small pond.....its shocking fergie couldn't see all this when there were quite a few on here saying no to berba before he even arrived. I would imagine fergie's best trait when it comes to rating a player is rating his mentality.
they lost, but so what, it's not the end of the world, he can go home, have a nice cuppa, do some squirrel watching, go to a show without a care in the world, smoke a cigar and turn in for the night.
no mental anguish, no pressure, no worries, no hairdryers, no feeling as if you've let down ten's of millions.....berb is in his element.
plus he can lord over his less gifted teammates and feel good about himself even in a loss.
classic big fish, small pond.....its shocking fergie couldn't see all this when there were quite a few on here saying no to berba before he even arrived. I would imagine fergie's best trait when it comes to rating a player is rating his mentality.
Maybe people like to follow the careers of former players, especially those they really liked?
I'm like that myself and I don't see a problem with it
I'm like that myself and I don't see a problem with it
As I mentioned before, watched the game last week and every time he looked at Kacaniclic it seemed like he saw Nani's face. Gave him a right earful any time he didnt pass to Berbatov. Doesnt change that he's been a great signing for them or that he's contributed a lot already. Need to give Ruiz credit as well though, 5 assists behind only Mata in the premier league and joint with Rooney in 2nd.
It's a thread on the general football section, Berbatov has been appreciated by many fans despite not being as successful as both parties would have hoped.
You finding it weird that this thread gets bumped is even weirder to me.
Ironic, as in this thread, it has been mentioned that Fulham fans know he has taken Kacaniclic under his wing and is mentoring him. Read the thread mate!
I find it even more confusing that a thread in the Football Forum (about a former player no less,) causes you such unrest.
An interesting read from the Sunday Times:
I'm really looking forward to seeing them play together today.
Fulham’s website advertises free printing if you buy a shirt with “Berbatov 9” on the back and the latest issue of the club magazine, which has Bryan Ruiz on its cover. You feel there should also be ads for velvet smoking jackets, Fabergé eggs, Aston Martins and rare parakeets.
There is just something so recherché, so decadent about a team, in 2012, encrusted with these two jewels. Modern football is supposed to be science, speed, tactics, pass completion stats, “final-third entries”, “high-intensity runs” and all that rather unmelodic noise. Yet here are two players who seemingly perform off the cuff, take their own sweet time — and always seek marks for artistic impression.
Berbatov would choke on a Marlboro if you said he’d be even better if he did a little more defending from the front. Ruiz would gaze, uncomprehending, doe-eyed, if you told him to put in tackles. These are kindred souls to whom pressing and percentage play are what an Ikea print in a clipframe would be to Brian Sewell.
That breed, The Mavericks, was supposed to have died with Peter Osgood and Rodney Marsh, so how can Fulham be high in the Premier League, and outplay Arsenal away, with two in their side? “Good footballers can work together all the time. It is about good footballers and I even feel, if you look at Ruiz and Berbatov, maybe it’s not the best combination,” Martin Jol said. “But nothing in football is what it seems.”
It comes down, perhaps, to football starting to alter — and to clever management from Jol. The game is becoming less mechanical. More goals are being scored, more roles on the pitch are free in scope, tackling is more difficult because of refereeing changes, flair is back in.
“The Premier League has become all about transitions,” says an analyst for one of its biggest clubs. He means inviting attacks, retrieving possession and hitting opponents with counters. In such circumstances, having forwards with quick wits and high technique — who find unseen spaces or unexpected angles with their passing — is valuable. Strikers who don’t come back but hang out, ready for the next break, can be advantageous.
Of course a coach must cover up for what his players don’t do. Ruiz, who at FC Twente enjoyed the presence of Cheick Tiote playing behind him, has two sturdy midfield minders, Chris Baird and Steve Sidwell. Berbatov is flanked by wide players, such as Damien Duff, who work hard out of possession. Nonetheless, Fulham’s high goals-against tally confirms luxury comes at a price. Thankfully for the team, with Ruiz and Berbatov they went into this weekend having outscored every Premier League side bar Manchester United.
Jol’s understanding of Berbatov is key. The Bulgarian was given four days off last week because his girlfriend was preparing to give birth. Jol says he “likes football. He is like a junior player who has just started . . . the thing you’ve got to understand is even when he’s happy, he doesn’t always look it”.
Having managed Berbatov at Tottenham and been behind his recruitment from Bayer Leverkusen in 2006, Jol feels his star’s reputation as “a sulker” is false. “We have an unbelievable medical department and when players arrive they fill in a [personality] test,” he said. “With Berba, I said, ‘Don’t let him fill it in!’ But, OK, he did it. They came back saying, ‘He’s an extrovert, a leader’. I said, ‘What are you bloody talking about?’ He wasn’t being serious when he filled in his answers . . . Berba’s no extrovert. But he loves people.”
Against Arsenal last weekend Berbatov converted a penalty after an extravagant pause in his run-up. Jol said on Friday: “He loves training, he loves finishing and he loves taking penalties. Today he wanted to show me his last penalty was not a coincidence. I said, ‘Please next time, like you always did at Spurs — just put it in the net instead of waiting for the keeper’. But he did that last week because I said there is no player I know who could wait for the keeper . . . so he did in front of 60,000 people.
“He is different. He wanted to prove to me he could wait for the keeper. That is not what you want — just put it in the corner!”
Jol suggested: “He doesn’t like to be an entertainer — he is an entertainer because of his style. I don’t want to take that away from him because, if you don’t win, people will say he is floating and dropping in.”
Though Berbatov was revelatory in a deeper position in a cameo against West Ham, Jol wants him to stay as a No 9. “Berba wants to be involved in the build-up. That’s not always easy,” he admitted.
The No 10 role and that band of space between midfield and forward line is Ruiz’s preserve. The Costa Rican started slowly in English football while attuning to its pace but is beginning to show why at FC Twente he was regarded by many as the club’s greatest player: Ruiz scored 24 goals and provided 18 assists, mostly from the right, as FC Twente won the first league title in their history.
“Ah, you want to talk about the sensational Bryan Ruiz?” said Eddy van der Ley, a journalist, broadcaster and FC Twente specialist. “Steve McClaren and the other players were important but who brought FC Twente the championship? Ruiz.”
Like Berbatov, he leaves the exhibitionism on-stage. Van der Ley, who got to know him in Holland, said: “Bryan’s a shy person, very humble.” Raised in a poor district of San Jose by his mother and grandfather, he flew grandad to Enschede and showed him the stadium.
“Wonderful,” said Pops, “now can you show me the Bernabeu?” He thought that Europe was small enough to drive to Madrid in an hour or two. Ruiz duly booked more flights and took him to Madrid. Grandad, a Real fan, had tears in his eyes.
Ruiz was scouted by Tottenham and watched by Harry Redknapp but Spurs pulled out. Fulham came in but, “on the same day Bryan was here [agreeing a deal] another club had a helicopter waiting to take him to their training ground”, Jol revealed.
Berbatov was en route to Italy, where he had meetings with Juventus and Fiorentina, when Jol called and made his pitch to persuade the striker to to join Fulham. “Berba, you’ll love it here. Your missus will love it. The fans will love you,” the manager crooned.
The double act so nearly never got together. But some things are meant to be. They’re two mavericks on a wavelength but the wave’s not fierce and choppy; it’s a long, slow, lovely, undulating swell of water.
I'm really looking forward to seeing them play together today.
Fulham’s website advertises free printing if you buy a shirt with “Berbatov 9” on the back and the latest issue of the club magazine, which has Bryan Ruiz on its cover. You feel there should also be ads for velvet smoking jackets, Fabergé eggs, Aston Martins and rare parakeets.
There is just something so recherché, so decadent about a team, in 2012, encrusted with these two jewels. Modern football is supposed to be science, speed, tactics, pass completion stats, “final-third entries”, “high-intensity runs” and all that rather unmelodic noise. Yet here are two players who seemingly perform off the cuff, take their own sweet time — and always seek marks for artistic impression.
Berbatov would choke on a Marlboro if you said he’d be even better if he did a little more defending from the front. Ruiz would gaze, uncomprehending, doe-eyed, if you told him to put in tackles. These are kindred souls to whom pressing and percentage play are what an Ikea print in a clipframe would be to Brian Sewell.
That breed, The Mavericks, was supposed to have died with Peter Osgood and Rodney Marsh, so how can Fulham be high in the Premier League, and outplay Arsenal away, with two in their side? “Good footballers can work together all the time. It is about good footballers and I even feel, if you look at Ruiz and Berbatov, maybe it’s not the best combination,” Martin Jol said. “But nothing in football is what it seems.”
It comes down, perhaps, to football starting to alter — and to clever management from Jol. The game is becoming less mechanical. More goals are being scored, more roles on the pitch are free in scope, tackling is more difficult because of refereeing changes, flair is back in.
“The Premier League has become all about transitions,” says an analyst for one of its biggest clubs. He means inviting attacks, retrieving possession and hitting opponents with counters. In such circumstances, having forwards with quick wits and high technique — who find unseen spaces or unexpected angles with their passing — is valuable. Strikers who don’t come back but hang out, ready for the next break, can be advantageous.
Of course a coach must cover up for what his players don’t do. Ruiz, who at FC Twente enjoyed the presence of Cheick Tiote playing behind him, has two sturdy midfield minders, Chris Baird and Steve Sidwell. Berbatov is flanked by wide players, such as Damien Duff, who work hard out of possession. Nonetheless, Fulham’s high goals-against tally confirms luxury comes at a price. Thankfully for the team, with Ruiz and Berbatov they went into this weekend having outscored every Premier League side bar Manchester United.
Jol’s understanding of Berbatov is key. The Bulgarian was given four days off last week because his girlfriend was preparing to give birth. Jol says he “likes football. He is like a junior player who has just started . . . the thing you’ve got to understand is even when he’s happy, he doesn’t always look it”.
Having managed Berbatov at Tottenham and been behind his recruitment from Bayer Leverkusen in 2006, Jol feels his star’s reputation as “a sulker” is false. “We have an unbelievable medical department and when players arrive they fill in a [personality] test,” he said. “With Berba, I said, ‘Don’t let him fill it in!’ But, OK, he did it. They came back saying, ‘He’s an extrovert, a leader’. I said, ‘What are you bloody talking about?’ He wasn’t being serious when he filled in his answers . . . Berba’s no extrovert. But he loves people.”
Against Arsenal last weekend Berbatov converted a penalty after an extravagant pause in his run-up. Jol said on Friday: “He loves training, he loves finishing and he loves taking penalties. Today he wanted to show me his last penalty was not a coincidence. I said, ‘Please next time, like you always did at Spurs — just put it in the net instead of waiting for the keeper’. But he did that last week because I said there is no player I know who could wait for the keeper . . . so he did in front of 60,000 people.
“He is different. He wanted to prove to me he could wait for the keeper. That is not what you want — just put it in the corner!”
Jol suggested: “He doesn’t like to be an entertainer — he is an entertainer because of his style. I don’t want to take that away from him because, if you don’t win, people will say he is floating and dropping in.”
Though Berbatov was revelatory in a deeper position in a cameo against West Ham, Jol wants him to stay as a No 9. “Berba wants to be involved in the build-up. That’s not always easy,” he admitted.
The No 10 role and that band of space between midfield and forward line is Ruiz’s preserve. The Costa Rican started slowly in English football while attuning to its pace but is beginning to show why at FC Twente he was regarded by many as the club’s greatest player: Ruiz scored 24 goals and provided 18 assists, mostly from the right, as FC Twente won the first league title in their history.
“Ah, you want to talk about the sensational Bryan Ruiz?” said Eddy van der Ley, a journalist, broadcaster and FC Twente specialist. “Steve McClaren and the other players were important but who brought FC Twente the championship? Ruiz.”
Like Berbatov, he leaves the exhibitionism on-stage. Van der Ley, who got to know him in Holland, said: “Bryan’s a shy person, very humble.” Raised in a poor district of San Jose by his mother and grandfather, he flew grandad to Enschede and showed him the stadium.
“Wonderful,” said Pops, “now can you show me the Bernabeu?” He thought that Europe was small enough to drive to Madrid in an hour or two. Ruiz duly booked more flights and took him to Madrid. Grandad, a Real fan, had tears in his eyes.
Ruiz was scouted by Tottenham and watched by Harry Redknapp but Spurs pulled out. Fulham came in but, “on the same day Bryan was here [agreeing a deal] another club had a helicopter waiting to take him to their training ground”, Jol revealed.
Berbatov was en route to Italy, where he had meetings with Juventus and Fiorentina, when Jol called and made his pitch to persuade the striker to to join Fulham. “Berba, you’ll love it here. Your missus will love it. The fans will love you,” the manager crooned.
The double act so nearly never got together. But some things are meant to be. They’re two mavericks on a wavelength but the wave’s not fierce and choppy; it’s a long, slow, lovely, undulating swell of water.
Lost 1-3 at home to Sunderland today (apologies for the lack of flowery language).
It wasn't a match report, so the sarcasm is bit misguided.
It was a load of overwritten bollocks (hence the juxtaposition).
Can say what you like, it still happened. Unlike some others I actually watched a football match before talking about it.
FYI I saw the second half of the Fulham-Sunderland game today. I can't confirm or deny it happened, as I was on the laptop with the game on as well, but the point I was making is that if he has taken a player under his wing and is mentoring him, the on-field complaining shouldn't matter as much.
But go on, infer stuff and not understand what I meant by the post.
For all we know he could have been "mentoring" Nani. He still gave him a bollocking on the pitch any time he disagreed with what he tried to do and if thats the best thing for all football clubs, every player would be doing it.
I mentioned it to follow on from the point about him throwing hissy fits that was mentioned, not in response to something about him mentoring or not mentoring players. Thats irrelevant. Lots of other players mentor a younger one without having a go at them in public.
Can you remove your knife from between his shoulder blades please? He's gone, let him be
I am not sure why people are getting stuck in on this argument. We don't know if he is 'mentoring' anyone at Fulham or if he did at OT. What we do know is that a lot of his current team mates have expressed their joy that he is with Fulham and an admiration for his footballing skills.
Imo, it is normal for younger players to look up to the established, and especially more talented players.
Berba does react when someone messes up a pass or is not where they should be, but so what? A lot of other players also express this emotionally. Actually, it is a good thing imo, shows he cares about what is happening. Do you think that he doesn't also get pissed off with himself when he fecks something up? He does and you can see it through his reactions on the pitch.
At the same time, he is the first to give praise if someone has done something well.
Anyway, emotions run high when playing and usually what happens on the pitch, stays on the pitch. It was always like this when I was playing football actively, arguments, swearing, even fights, but all was forgotten when the match finished.
Emotion is good.
Imo, it is normal for younger players to look up to the established, and especially more talented players.
Berba does react when someone messes up a pass or is not where they should be, but so what? A lot of other players also express this emotionally. Actually, it is a good thing imo, shows he cares about what is happening. Do you think that he doesn't also get pissed off with himself when he fecks something up? He does and you can see it through his reactions on the pitch.
At the same time, he is the first to give praise if someone has done something well.
Anyway, emotions run high when playing and usually what happens on the pitch, stays on the pitch. It was always like this when I was playing football actively, arguments, swearing, even fights, but all was forgotten when the match finished.
Emotion is good.
Only if you remove your tongue from his you know where