Feels like we've seen nothing of him so far. Really frustrating.
Shinji Kagawa
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With seen, Solius?
Oh feck.
I agree. It hasn't helped Kagawa is injured. It's just there's only been one match where we've shown any real indication of moving to something new in terms of how we attack. It will take time but it's one thing trying to work towards such a system and another when the opportunity is there to make some more progress but default to our 4-4-2 unnecessarily. There will be some games where we can use our old system but it's annoying when we don't even use that correctly.
I don't think it's as radical as how we played from 07-09 though. We used 4-3-3 more often then but I guess you could say the players we had then make such a time an anomaly.
4-2-3-1 is the one system we play that will fit in Kagawa. On the left in the David Silva role, able to dove tail with RVP and Rooney in the hole. Problem is we are failing to find a consistent 2 in center midfield.
Is spot on. Don't know where all these other posters who keep seeing Fergie played 4.4.2. Can't comment on Spurs or Norwich but I have watched every other game this season and not seen a 4-4-2.
So who is the "1" in the 4-2-3-1?
I'd like to see Kagawa behind RVP & Rooney, or Kagawa & Rooney behind RVP. Practically though, these three can all play up and move around as much as they want!
I would like to see Carrick-Cleverley-Ando as a middle three, with the fullbacks providing the width. I'm tired of watching our trio of wingers playing so poorly and not doing what wingers are meant to do.
rvp
We've definitely played a 4-4-2ish style even if it's not been the archetypal 4-4-2.
I can't wait until this guy's back. Our game will surely improve so much once he's back - his influence on our play is excellent in my opinion. He definitely hasn't completely adapted yet, but within a few months he'll be as effective as Silva was for City in his hay-day last season hopefully.
We miss his forward-thinking and creativity in the final third definitely. Anyone with an idea when he'll return?
We miss his forward-thinking and creativity in the final third definitely. Anyone with an idea when he'll return?
He's been pushed back a further month so i'd say we won't properly get to see him until the new year. He looked bright in the first few games but then tailed off a bit. Was top drawer second half against spurs.
Shame that his start is hampered by injuries. Plus, we could do with someone who could also slot in on the side right now
Where do we think he'll play when he comes back? Looking at our team right now, it'll probably be on the wing due to how poor our wingers have been. It'll be worrying if he's been rotated from position to position though; he needs to find one which he can settle in permanently.
In a middle 3 with Anderson and Carrick/cleverley, and behind Rooney rvp and Hernandez. Worth a try at least. Would be great to watch for sure.
Plus, we could really do with his great movement upfront right now!
I think if he were fit now he'd be playing on the left, with whichever of our wingers that is least out of form playing on the right.
The front 3 of Rooney, RVP and Hernandez wouldn't work. The team would need some wingers and it's why I'd rather we stuck with two up front. If we're going 4-3-3, then we're wasting one of Rooney or RVP and they might as well be dropped for an actual winger.
Out of interest, in that 4-3-3, who would be your central striker out of the three you mentioned?
I'd like to see him in a 4-2-3-1 formation. Play him from the left side but give him the freedom to drift infield and affect the game like silva does for city.
-------------DDG---------------
Rafael---Rio-------Evans---Evra
--------Carrick/Fletcher---------
----Anderson------Cleverley----
----------Kagawa--------------
---Rooney--------RvP-----------
Rafael---Rio-------Evans---Evra
--------Carrick/Fletcher---------
----Anderson------Cleverley----
----------Kagawa--------------
---Rooney--------RvP-----------
Should take Young's spot. At least he'll offer more than passing the ball backwards
Could really do with him, particularly if we can get him adjusted to a drifting role from wide. We need someone who can come inside and create, we're sorely lacking it atm.
He'd be a massive massive improvement on Young/Welbeck on that left wing.
Doesn't he start wider for Japan? Drifting in from the left I believe. Would like to see it happen if he cannot dislodge Rooney from the central role. To be fair both are flexible and could alternate positionally during games.
That's what I're heard but not seen it, though have read that he doesn't enjoy it. But I agree there's no reason why he can't swap, in fact we should be able to play an interchangeable front 4, or at least 3 in rooney, rvp and kagawa, all of them are comfortable across, the pitch, right not everyone is far too fixed in their positions and never close enough to do quick little exchanges. For me it's the perfect mix of the benefits we've seen in a narrow system whilst retaining the edge our width gives us. Have those 3 and ideally for me Nani but it could work with any of our other attackers if they're on form to an extent, with Valencia and Hernandez you lose some link up/versatility but in most games it shouldn't matter.
And tbh if Fergie doesn't have that sort of role for him planned then I really don't know why he bought him, surely not simply as an alternative to Rooney in the hole. It's like how we were chasing Hazard, we must have been thinking of a role that let him drift at least I hope we were.
It is an exciting thought to imagine a front four with that ability and movement. What I feel with Kagawa is that at some point in the next year he will need to in some way stamp his authority on this United side, like Rooney has done, and to become a focal point in the way Silva and Mata have at their respective clubs. It will be hard for him but he has the talent...hopefully he has the determination to truly make his mark and become more than another talented player who doesn't quite live up to his potential.
As you say though a lot of that will depend on what Ferguson wants to do with him....can he get the best out of him, mould him accordingly or utilise him correctly? So far it's hard to determine.
Yes Honda plays the number 10 role so kagawa comes from the flank but pretty much has a free role aswell.
He has looked very good there whenever I have seen him but admittedly it was against poor opposition.
He says he prefers the number 10 role behind the striker but I'm sure he is hardly going to refuse coming off the wing for us.
Aye there is no harm in putting it out there that you prefer a particular position. He's got to go and nail it down.
Could be more effective drifting inside with United, better option there than Rooney I would say. He is a bit quicker in his distribution and movement and he can finish well....we lack a goal threat from wider positions when we play 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, especially if Nani is absent, in other words most of this season.
That's probably the most disappointing thing for me this season that we haven't seemed to set up like that on a more regular basis. It's all been very static in the attack and although some of it is down to poor form and injuries for some players a lot of it just seems to be a choice to attack in a certain way. Our best performance so far this season was probably Stoke and that was where for a while we saw Rooney, RVP and Welbeck drifting, swapping positions etc.
We've just not seen that enough for me. I mean even when Kagawa was fit once Rooney came back, we just saw a generic 4411 with everyone fixed in their position and the change to the diamond has been somewhat disappointing for me in the sense that although there has been some nice stuff it seems to suggest that Fergie atm either wants to play with 2 traditional wingers, keeping their width or no wingers where we dominate possession but don't have a huge amount of cutting edge.
I mean with Kagawa it's fair enough that maybe we're trying to ease him in, but even without him, with the players we do have, we've seen little fluidity in the front 4. I'm hoping it will change as there is huge potential in this attack.
He has played almost all of his games for Japan(30+) as a left "winger".
He's done really well in that position, but that is partly because Japan don't really use wingers. It's the fullbacks that create all the width, while the wingers cut in and create all the magic right outside the 16-yard line. This is especially necessary because Japan lacks a world class striker who scores consistently.
If we "switched" to a 4-2-3-1 formation where the wingers are supposed to cut in, then we would be able to utilize Kagawa's skills. Obviously he's better as an AM, but it's a pretty good compromise if you ask me. Kagawa was really good on the left wing in our first game against Everton. Imagine how good he could be in a game where the rest of our starting XI actually performs well.
Either way, if we want to bring the best out of Kagawa, then he needs to play as an AM(preferably in a diamond or a 4-3-2-1 formation), or he needs to cut in from the left. This is my conclusion after watching Kagawa for around 30 games in 3 different teams.
-------------DDG---------------
Rafael---Rio-------Evans---Evra
--------Carrick/Fletcher---------
----Anderson------Cleverley----
----------Kagawa--------------
---Rooney--------RvP-----------
Swap Cleverley and Ando and then
I was inking more of a 4-3-2-1 formation, Hernandez at the very front, and then Rooney and rvp playing deeper behind him and drifting around. In the whole between midfield and Hernandez, not as wingers but as inside forward type players I guess.
Something like...
Anderson Carrick kagawa
Van Persie Rooney
Hernandez
Something like that could easily be switched to a diamond , and the fullbacks would provide the width. Our wingers have been shite all season long so there's no reason to play them when our main width comes from the fullbacks anyways.
He plays a lot of games drifting in from the left for Japan and he always looks impressive doing it. The good thing is that Sir Alex has always been open to flexibility between our attacking players so he can move all around the pitch kind of like Park did but with a lot more technical quality.
I haven't seen that once since he's played for Man United so maybe if you have examples you can mention it to me.Kagawa has been ok, he's been adapting and it's not easy playing with a team that changes so much and anyway he got injured.
Kagawa doesn't really play as a left winger for Japan. As someone said above, they use their fullbacks for with so he is almost never on the wing. He's their playmaker and drifts around wherever he likes.
Japan are a good team to watch by the way.
Japan are a good team to watch by the way.
Best example was at Everton.
Thanks for that insightful information.....
Glad to see you get promoted man. Good promotion.
This is perfect, although I think it would actually play more like this:
Anderson Carrick/Fletcher Cleverley
Kagawa Rooney
RVP
Kagawa Rooney
RVP
Rooney definitely shouldn't end up playing any further forward than Kagawa. Wayne's effectiveness increases when he moves in and out of midfield, seeing plenty of the ball, whereas Shinji is best keeping disciplined and staying quite high up the pitch, so that he can always be the one to deliver that final through-ball. He's good at possession football, but engineering quick attacks is his real strength.
I think whilst the wingers are out of form that's a good shout although I think the diamond would have to be modified to tuck ando and clev in more, but once one of the wingers is playing well I'd want one of them to come back in, in place of either ando or clev. Both are good players capable of giving a cutting edge but not to the same extent as one of our wingers on form and I don't think in the vast majority of games we'd need to play both of them and kagawa.
Fair shout. It'd have to be Anderson for me. His role in the team is much closer to what a winger brings than Cleverley's. Clev is about keeping our possession snappy and our tempo high, whereas Anderson turns that tempo and possession into forward drive and attacking moves (which is basically what a winger does, but from a wider position.)
However, if the formation I posted was working as well as I think it might, I'm not sure I'd automatically bring a winger back in. Don't fix what isn't broken.
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