Yeah if probably take out ando too, with rvp Rooney kagawa and a winger I don't think we'd need Andos power as much. But yeah if they were playing great a winger would have to earn their way back in but I think one of them will come good soon and when they do a front four with them and clev and carrick behind for me should work really well. Still though it would hinge on how we set up, if we're too rigid I don't think we'll see the best out of these players.
Shinji Kagawa
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Yeah if probably take out ando too, with rvp Rooney kagawa and a winger I don't think we'd need Andos power as much. But yeah if they were playing great a winger would have to earn their way back in but I think one of them will come good soon and when they do a front four with them and clev and carrick behind for me should work really well. Still though it would hinge on how we set up, if we're too rigid I don't think we'll see the best out of these players.
These formations are all well and good lads, but my concern is how do we shape up defensively? Kagawa flings himself about the pitch, but doesn't provide much defensively. I think, on form Madrid are probably the best team in the world at the moment. Do we think the likes of Rafael and Evra can cope with Ronaldo and Di Maria based on their form and without decent cover?
It's fine to claim that we are Manchester United and we should give any opposition more to think about than us, them. But sadly, that just isn't the case anymore.
It's fine to claim that we are Manchester United and we should give any opposition more to think about than us, them. But sadly, that just isn't the case anymore.
Kagawa isn't defensive ? What? Did you watch him at Dortmund or are you completely speculating ?
He tries to help out defensively put its pretty obvious that he doesn't have a clue what he is doing most of the time. It's one thing being able to put pressure on people but its another to actually position yourself correctly
I have found him to be wanting in that respect and am hoping that he improves that aspect of his game.
Jazza13: I guess with the formations being mentioned we are looking at a fluid front four and Kagawa not having a rigid position on the left side of the midfield. Him, Rooney, RVP will be free to move around and interchange positions. You'll often find Rooney dropping on the left and will have to help out Evra in defense.
I hear your concerns regarding Evra and that is the reason why Fergie is playing Young or Welbeck on the left.
Jazza13: I guess with the formations being mentioned we are looking at a fluid front four and Kagawa not having a rigid position on the left side of the midfield. Him, Rooney, RVP will be free to move around and interchange positions. You'll often find Rooney dropping on the left and will have to help out Evra in defense.
I hear your concerns regarding Evra and that is the reason why Fergie is playing Young or Welbeck on the left.
It shouldn't be an issue if we have carrick and ando/clev and then Rooney in the middle. That's 3 players who will work hard, Kagawa hasn't been great defensively but he has shown he's more than willing to get back and so if say he was one of the wider players with license to drift, with 3 in the middle already tracking back and the other wide attacker, he wouldn't have to be so disciplined in his role. Obviously if we were playing against a Ronaldo we might adjust the system to say have a Young/Valencia who will cover well but the majority of the time it shouldn't be an issue.
The other thing is that by playing a more narrow way not only should we be able to keep the ball better but it will also help to tighten up the middle as there will be a lot less space to exploit. That's one of our big problems atm, by playing so wide and with most other teams playing more narrow, all the space to attack us is through the middle and as we'e seen with the diamond this can be remedied.
fergie will either convert him into a winger or a central midfielder who plays in a 442.
When is he even due back?
Until we have an actual top-class DM to field, it's our only option. Madrid are better than us, so no approach is going to make us the favourites, but we don't have any way of providing really top-class shielding. Better to try and keep as much possession as possible, and use the magnificent attacking players at our disposal. Yes, Ronaldo and Di Maria are going to trouble us whatever we do, but I reckon a front five of Cleverley, Ando/Nani, Rooney, Kagawa and RVP would give them a hell of a lot to worry about too.
Well, despite people repeating it all the time, it seems like another group of people seem to not get it. I was just trying to help.
Positioning isn't defensively important in that area of the pitch, there is no threat behind. The main reason defenders need to position themselves well is to prevent and intercept through balls to strikers, so you can't leave huge gaps between defenders otherwise it will be exploited. The question is identifying the threat and then positioning yourself to counter it. You look at someone like Rio and he's a master at positioning himself to cut out danger, he makes it look easy. Smalling as well has the ability to really stand out here.
With Kagawa playing in attacking midfield positioning isn't really an issue. If he works hard and gets in a few tackles then that is the defensive contribution you want from players in that area of the pitch.
His lack of ability to defend was an issue when he played right of a diamond and it could possibly be if he plays out wide. Hopefully he will learn though. Nani came to the club and wasn't good defensively, now he's much better.
He barely played in a diamond, was more of a winger against Newcastle because he pushed so wide. Lynk is right though above, he is fine defensively.
Only one match and one that was lost but that's not what matters.It's no wonder Kagawa doesn't play in the role where he can influence things at his best considering there is a better player in Rooney available for United.
He hasn't been helped by all the changing formations and tactics by SAF tbh
His defending isn't much of an issue when he plays in the hole but like Koroux said, Rooney is a better player and plays in that role. Kagawa is likely to play out wide or left/right of a diamond where he needs to be defensively good. IMO at the moment he isn't very good defensively, his tackling isn't very good either.
I agree that Rooney is the better player overall, but is he really a better AM?
Kagawa is better than Rooney in tight spaces, has a better first touch, quicker turns, better short passes, better vision, better at dribbling, better at keeping the ball, and he's more creative. How often do you see Rooney make creative defense-splitting assists? Rooney is more of a "fighter AM". He's a striker at heart so he scores goals, but at the same time he's so hard-working that he's involved everywhere, making his allround game seem indredible. Since he's involved in a lot of goals as well as the battle in midfield, people just assume that he's a natural AM, but the fact is that he's not.
The reason Rooney works so well in the AM role is because he's so damn versatile and hard-working. Our immobile CM also plays a big part in this, because it allows Rooney to shine defensively as well. Put Rooney in Real, Barca, or Dortmund's AM position, and you'll realize that he's more of a striker after all.
Long story short:
In a high-class team with a mobile center midfield and wingers that cut in, Kagawa is the better AM. In any team(no matter how skilled) with an immobile center midfield and wingers that provide width, Rooney is the better AM. That is why he currently is a better choice in the AM position for us. Not because he's a better AM in general.
Make no mistake; I love Rooney and I think he's class, but people overestimate his AM skills.
I think it's arguable whether or not Rooney is better than Kagawa in the hole. Personally, when it comes to creating through the middle, I think Kagawa is better. If you put Rooney in the hole in Dortmund's system, I'm not sure if he would be as effective as Kagawa. I could be wrong. Point being, Kagawa is still adjusting here and as you pointed out, our fluctuating formations and lineups hasn't helped in his transition. Rooney has been here for 7 seasons now. More than enough time to know how we like to play.
I mentioned Kagawa's best match. He's shown some signs of quality play but they have only been indications of what he could bring to the team, not shown in a performance in 90 minutes. His injury does him no good either. We know where his best position is. The question is whether or not we will use him there. We haven't played him there enough to really know. I don't count the times where he played with Scholes in midfield because in those games, there was a lack of acclimation towards Kagawa's style of play and we mostly tried to play through our wingers. In other threads, I've remarked we will most likely use him as a left winger who drifts inwards like he does for Japan. Although, I don't see why him and Rooney can't alternate positions as they are both versatile players.
Hehe Mad Winger, our thoughts are basically the same and separated by a minute.
Paraphrasing is my specialty
I didn't express it clearly but I meant that Rooney is just more suited to playing for Man United and in that particular position as he has showed this season (despite not scoring that many goals).
Great post Man Winger and you explain it here the reason I think why Rooney is better for Man United in that particular role
@Plato: I don't undermine Kagawa and I think how Rooney would perform for Dortmund is irrelevant.Rooney's qualities shine more in that role partly he takes an extra responsiblity with the usual immobile CM pairing we have.
Great post Man Winger and you explain it here the reason I think why Rooney is better for Man United in that particular role
@Plato: I don't undermine Kagawa and I think how Rooney would perform for Dortmund is irrelevant.Rooney's qualities shine more in that role partly he takes an extra responsiblity with the usual immobile CM pairing we have.
Right but that doesn't answer question if he's a better AM than Kagawa. I'm sure if we picked more balanced midfield combinations, we wouldn't have to rely on Rooney so much to carry us through. It can work when he's on top form, but when he's average, it's simply asking too much. No reason to make our whole attack suffer as a result. But if we have to pick an immobile midfield, then I think Rooney is the best option we have at this point in time for that position.
He's a better AM for Man United than Kagawa will be IMO.After all how they perform for the club matters the most, not what Kagawa used to do for Dortmund
It's arguable though because Kagawa's abilities suit the AM position better. The only reason you say that is because Rooney can make a shit midfield look good but that's not because he's a better AM. He's not even playing as an AM in these type of games. Besides if we transition to a more fluid setup, Kagawa is an even better fit for the position than Rooney. Mad Winger has already highlighted why that is. You get more consistency from him than you would Rooney in the same role. I summarised this in the "Javier Hernandez". You should go read it and think about it.
To say Rooney is a better AM for United than Kagawa just means you're taking the safe option based on how we've played the past couple of seasons. It's not incomprehensible that Kagawa, who is more suited to the AM position can do a better job than Rooney in the same role if he receives more game time in that position. Currently, Rooney is there because he understands how we play in a expansive 4-4-2 better than Kagawa. However, he's not really playing as an AM. It's a second striker role where he has the freedom to drop deep and help the midfield get the ball to the wings and advance play. An AM does more than that.
Starting running today and could be on the bench for Sunday according to Fergie.
Has started training and may make the bench tomorrow.
Great to hear. I was just wondering when we would get to see him again.
Good news. Need all the players back with the christmas fixtures coming
The bench must be a good distance away.
Glad to see he might be making the bench, now have to wait and see who replaces him in the physio room given our luck with injuries.
great news
Good news. I really really like him. He has potential to become my new Rafael/Chicharito.
Might make the bench on Sunday, not tomorrow.
I found that funny, but dont want to boost your ego by giving you a green smiley.
surely he'll not be fit enough for the derby.
Like Park last year?
Sir Alex says Shinji Kagawa is making progress: "Kagawa started running today. He may make the bench [against City]
Bitch, don't front.
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