Gareth Bale is...The most expensive player ever?!

[Brightonian]

It's this notion that the manager has decided after 25 years to change the style of football we play and somehow, you know this.

Anybody who mentions tika bleeding taka needs a period of introspection, it's the second most pathetic term of all time. (Chillax being the worst).

This smacks of the English football inferiority complex. It's just a term, in another language, to describe a certain style of football. If I'd said 'short one-two passing', I'd have described exactly the same thing in more words. Honestly, why get so het up over terminology? Chillax, man.

As for the other bit, the idea that we've had one definitive style which we've always played under Fergie is laughable. He has certain preferences which tend to shine through, sometimes more and sometimes less. But basically, he builds the style of football around the players, and it's been ever-changing since he first came here.

And don't try and make out that I'm somehow arrogantly claiming to know what Fergie's thinking. I have eyes. I use them to watch our football. Anyone else with eyes will agree that our style has changed since the predominantly counter-attacking, speedy, direct football we played when Ronaldo was here. Possibly you think it's happened entirely by accident and has nothing to do with Fergie. I'd say it's probably a result of him looking at the players we have and tailoring our game more closely to their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Plechazunga]

Bale's a tit because he claims that any contact is a foul. Or, more likely, he doesn't but uses that as an excuse to continue trying to con referees.

He pretty much does. In that interview he seems to use the two words interchangeably.

 

[kietotheworld]

Yeah, in fact we should just scrap refs altogether, since footballers are such good judges of when they've been fouled. They have a responsibility to dive anyway to signal that there was enough contact to count, so what's the point in paying refs just to corroborate it?

I'm talking about the action of the player who has been fouled but not enough to knock him to the ground, he has two choices

A) Go to ground anyway, get the free kick/penalty, correct decision made, foul punished, neither team disadvantaged

B) Stay on his feet and try to get to the ball, having been slowed/knocked off balance by the foul, defender's foul goes unpunished, no free kick or penalty to the attacking side, the attacking side is disadvantaged.

For me A is the better action in every respect, and it seems bizarre to me that people expect players to harm their own team by doing B. Defenders cheating with snidey little fouls that referees don't pick up on, like the defender grabbing Bale when he's on his way through, seem to be perfectly fine, but attackers helping the referee make the correct decision seems to be morally unacceptable. It's a crazy situation.

Of course, there is an obvious conflict of interest as far as judging whether a foul has occurred or not on the part of the player, but I'm talking about instances where a foul has actually occurred and whether the diving player deserves criticism or not.

That's bollocks.

A lot more significant - Yes.
Much bigger issue? - Nope.

If you don't cut it out in one place, you can't then expect to cut it out in other places. Diving is a bigger issue outside the box as there are much more fouls in other areas of the football pitch and easier for players to dive and gain fouls in the middle of the pitch. You see a lot of 'foul dives' (no idea what else to call them) where players come under contact but go over way too easily, which is a dive in my opinion.

If it's visibly and definitely deciding matches and titles then I think it is automatically a bigger issue. Perhaps we'll agree to disagree on this one, I don't think it's really worth arguing about.

 

[VoetbalWizard]

How is bale ever going to come to us? We'd have to break the British record and levy would still sell him abroad. Furthermore bale seems to be interested in la liga much more than your typical British player. Levy will do a Modric with him.

 

[Brophs]

He pretty much does. In that interview he seems to use the two words interchangeably.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the interview I was thinking of from the other day. What annoys me about him is that he's doing interviews with eager journos who want a 'Bale exclusive' and getting them to peddle this nonsense he seems to have dreamt up whereby he insists that he only goes to ground/dives to avoid getting hurt. Which might be true in some instances, but what about all of those times where he goes to ground under next-to-no contact? It's extraordinarily disingenuous and cheap.

 

[MrMojo]

This smacks of the English football inferiority complex. It's just a term, in another language, to describe a certain style of football. If I'd said 'short one-two passing', I'd have described exactly the same thing in more words. Honestly, why get so het up over terminology? Chillax, man.

As for the other bit, the idea that we've had one definitive style which we've always played under Fergie is laughable. He has certain preferences which tend to shine through, sometimes more and sometimes less. But basically, he builds the style of football around the players, and it's been ever-changing since he first came here.

And don't try and make out that I'm somehow arrogantly claiming to know what Fergie's thinking. I have eyes. I use them to watch our football. Anyone else with eyes will agree that our style has changed since the predominantly counter-attacking, speedy, direct football we played when Ronaldo was here. Possibly you think it's happened entirely by accident and has nothing to do with Fergie. I'd say it's probably a result of him looking at the players we have and tailoring our game more closely to their strengths and weaknesses.

God forbid we use English and a couple more words than necessary.

If only Fergie had thought about this short one-two passing you refer to years ago, who knows what we could have won. The idea that our current style isn't working is a joke right, how many goals have scored this season?

We play now as we've always played. We've always counter attacked quickly, before and after Ronaldo. We play with two wingers, two midfielders, a striker and a deep lying striker. How succesful this is depends on how good the acquisitions are.

You're just overcomplicating football n my opinion.

 

[Snake Plissken]

With that particular poster it was clear he just had a different taste. For those who just want to emulate Barcelona, it is indeed snobbish fashion.

Pink Floyd fans can't appreciate ACDC, it's too obvious for them. Same goes for fans of small technical players, they can't 'lower' themselves to appreciate a Bale type player.



Me neither. I don't blame the players and I definitely don't understand Bale being the one put on the cross.

The authorities need to sort it out in the summer and give the players some proper guidance.

Utterly bizarre argument. Comparing music with football for a start. Secondly using Pink Floyd and ACDC as examples, both of which are completely different, it's hardly a crime to like one and not the other.

 

[MrMojo]

Utterly bizarre argument. Comparing music with football for a start. Secondly using Pink Floyd and ACDC as examples, both of which are completely different, it's hardly a crime to like one and not the other.

You're taking a musical analogy a little too seriously.

 

[Plechazunga]

I'm talking about the action of the player who has been fouled but not enough to knock him to the ground, he has two choices

A) Go to ground anyway, get the free kick/penalty, correct decision made, foul punished, neither team disadvantaged

B) Stay on his feet and try to get to the ball, having been slowed/knocked off balance by the foul, defender's foul goes unpunished, no free kick or penalty to the attacking side, the attacking side is disadvantaged.

For me A is the better action in every respect, and it seems bizarre to me that people expect players to harm their own team by doing B. Defenders cheating with snidey little fouls that referees don't pick up on, like the defender grabbing Bale when he's on his way through, seem to be perfectly fine, but attackers helping the referee make the correct decision seems to be morally unacceptable. It's a crazy situation.

Of course, there is an obvious conflict of interest as far as judging whether a foul has occurred or not on the part of the player, but I'm talking about instances where a foul has actually occurred and whether the diving player deserves criticism or not.

I don't think defenders committing sneaky little fouls is alright, I think both fouling and 'going down easy' are wrong.

Your 'instances where a foul has actually occurred' is begging the question. Deciding that is the ref's job. Players are in no position to judge. Not because they’re cynical (thought they are), but because in the heat of the action they may not have a clear view, and their perceptions are also obviously influenced by bias.

Probably more importantly, if players think it’s completely normal and irreproachable to fall over when they’ve been fouled, the will pretty soon start falling over every time they’ve been touched. This not only makes it harder for the ref to judge what level of contact there was, but is also a rubbish spectacle.

Obviously it will always happen, as will sneaky fouls from defenders. But it’s important that it’s not considered legitimate, otherwise it becomes more and more common - which is what has happened. That's why the likes of Bale have this attitude of, "Well if you touch me, then yeah, duh, I'm going to fall over", as if it's nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Member 39557]

I don't think defenders doing sneaky little foul is alright, I think both fouling and 'going down easy' are wrong.

Your 'instances where a foul has actually occurred' is begging the question. Deciding that is the ref's job. Players are in no position to judge. Not because they’re cynical (thought they are), but because in the heat of the action they may not have a clear view, and their perceptions are also obviously influenced by bias.

Probably more importantly, if players think it’s completely normal and irreproachable to fall over when they’ve been fouled, the will pretty soon start falling over every time they’ve been touched. This not only makes it harder for the ref to judge what level of contact there was, but is also a rubbish spectacle.

Obviously it will always happen, as will sneaky fouls from defenders. But it’s important that it’s not considered legitimate, otherwise it becomes more and more common - which is what has happened. That's why the likes of Bale have this attitude of, "Well if you touch me, then yeah, duh, I'm going to fall over", as if it's nothing to be ashamed of.

This is what Mbia was doing yesterday for QPR. I was actually waiting for him to fall over every time he got the ball. By the end of the game, his shirt was muddier than his boots. In fairness to the ref, he mostly ignored the dives, but Mbia kept on throwing himself to the floor and I think the ref should have booked him for the sake of the game. QPR would have been better off without him, because he broke up their rythym by playing for fouls, rather than trying to be creative.

 

[Brightonian]

God forbid we use English and a couple more words than necessary.

If only Fergie had thought about this short one-two passing you refer to years ago, who knows what we could have won. The idea that our current style isn't working is a joke right, how many goals have scored this season?

We play now as we've always played. We've always counter attacked quickly, before and after Ronaldo. We play with two wingers, two midfielders, a striker and a deep lying striker. How succesful this is depends on how good the acquisitions are.

You're just overcomplicating football n my opinion.

God forbid I use a widely-used Spanish term which you understand perfectly well.

You seem determined to argue with a point which I am very obviously not making, and it's getting tedious. I'm going to restate it one more time, and then leave you to your own devices.

I believe our style is changing, at the moment. It is not a case of moving from 'shit English rubbish' to 'tiki taka', however much your inferiority complex is determined to read it that way. For me, it is moving from a swift, direct passing-oriented game which relies heavily on wing play, towards a more patient, steadier, passing-oriented game which balances wide and central attack more equally. I don't think either system is 'better', it's just an observation of what is clearly apparent in our actual football on the pitch this season.

Whilst our position so far this season is brilliant, some aspects of our football were unarguably a bit inconsistent earlier in the season. For me, this had a lot to do with the aforementioned transition. Our earlier style no longer suits our players so well, and when we tried to employ it we struggled. Out of form wingers didn't help things, of course. We would see things like Kagawa and Anderson forced into a 4411 which didn't suit them at all. Or, when that failed, players like Giggs and Scholes (who, in their prime, were the reason 4411 worked so well for us) were put in there, in the hope that they would be as good at it as they once were. All of this is natural and possibly unavoidable with a transition in style.

Whilst a brilliant player, and good enough that he would improve us regardless of formations, styles etc, Bale is more suited to the sort of football we are moving away from than the sort we seem to be playing these days. He excels when his team are not dominating possession, because he's at his best running at a midfield and defence that have space in behind them. As the West Brom game shows, when playing well we dominate possession and tend to have to find a way through ten opposition players packed into their box. Bale is not so good at this. If we were going to spend the huge amount which would be needed to get him, then we'd be able to afford similarly capable players who are more suited to our current style of football, and to the sorts of challenges (packed penalty areas, for example) that it presents. This does not mean loads of tiny technical playmakers. It just means not Bale.

I'm not actually overcomplicating anything. What is making things complicated is your determination that we have an argument in which one of us says 'Fergie's shit, he's always played one formation and it doesn't work any more, why can't we be like Barcelona', and the other puts him in his place. READ WHAT I'M ACTUALLY WRITING.

/rant. And also, for me, /argument.

 

[MrMojo]

God forbid I use a widely-used Spanish term which you understand perfectly well.

You seem determined to argue with a point which I am very obviously not making, and it's getting tedious. I'm going to restate it one more time, and then leave you to your own devices.

I believe our style is changing, at the moment. It is not a case of moving from 'shit English rubbish' to 'tiki taka', however much your inferiority complex is determined to read it that way. For me, it is moving from a swift, direct passing-oriented game which relies heavily on wing play, towards a more patient, steadier, passing-oriented game which balances wide and central attack more equally. I don't think either system is 'better', it's just an observation of what is clearly apparent in our actual football on the pitch this season.

Whilst our position so far this season is brilliant, some aspects of our football were unarguably a bit inconsistent earlier in the season. For me, this had a lot to do with the aforementioned transition. Our earlier style no longer suits our players so well, and when we tried to employ it we struggled. Out of form wingers didn't help things, of course. We would see things like Kagawa and Anderson forced into a 4411 which didn't suit them at all. Or, when that failed, players like Giggs and Scholes (who, in their prime, were the reason 4411 worked so well for us) were put in there, in the hope that they would be as good at it as they once were. All of this is natural and possibly unavoidable with a transition in style.

Whilst a brilliant player, and good enough that he would improve us regardless of formations, styles etc, Bale is more suited to the sort of football we are moving away from than the sort we seem to be playing these days. He excels when his team are not dominating possession, because he's at his best running at a midfield and defence that have space in behind them. As the West Brom game shows, when playing well we dominate possession and tend to have to find a way through ten opposition players packed into their box. Bale is not so good at this. If we were going to spend the huge amount which would be needed to get him, then we'd be able to afford similarly capable players who are more suited to our current style of football, and to the sorts of challenges (packed penalty areas, for example) that it presents. This does not mean loads of tiny technical playmakers. It just means not Bale.

I'm not actually overcomplicating anything. What is making things complicated is your determination that we have an argument in which one of us says 'Fergie's shit, he's always played one formation and it doesn't work any more, why can't we be like Barcelona', and the other puts him in his place. READ WHAT I'M ACTUALLY WRITING.

/rant. And also, for me, /argument.

This is the crux of my argument against you, I don't agree with that at ll. All the other stuff about Inferiority complex etc I can't bring myself to respond to.

I'll leave it there.

 

[Fergus' son]

Bale definitely is more suited to the game that Brightonian describes, but I'm not so sure we are moving away from that style, at least not as sure as he is.

 

[MrMojo]

Bale definitely is more suited to the game that Brightonian describes, but I'm not so sure we are moving away from that style, at least not as sure as he is.

Agree, that was my point from the start.

 

[Fergus' son]

Also, there is a great deal of snobbishness on the cafe reading Bale, exactly the same as what MrMojo describes.

 

[Fergus' son]

Agree, that was my point from the start.

I'm not sure why people do think we are moving away from that style? What has happened to suggest this?

 

[MrMojo]

I'm not sure why people do think we are moving away from that style? What has happened to suggest this?

Signing Kagawa I think, even though we've barely seen any evidence of how we're going to use him.

 

[Fergus' son]

signing kagawa i think, even though we've barely seen any evidence of how we're going to use him.

2 + 2 = 5

 

[Brightonian]

I'm not sure why people do think we are moving away from that style? What has happened to suggest this?

The style of our football. That's what I've been trying to say. Not signings, not hints from Fergie. Out different style of football has suggested to me that we're employing a different style of football. Not radically different, mind you, but noticeably so.

 

[Fergus' son]

If the season so far somehow represents a shift in our style of football according to your mind, then the shift isn't any less accommodating to Bale than it was previously, with it being more or less the same style and all.

 

[Joemo]

The style of our football. That's what I've been trying to say. Not signings, not hints from Fergie. Out different style of football has suggested to me that we're employing a different style of football. Not radically different, mind you, but noticeably so.

I agree with you that we're moving towards a different style, with a very fluid interchangeable attacks, but I think you have done a real disservice to Bale in your previous posts. He's not simply a kick and run merchant (I know you haven't outrightly said this) but it's what he's made his name for because of the style that Spurs play. But he's shown in games for Spurs that he's a clever player who has the ability to drift around, picking up space in holes and capitalising on slower-thinking defences. Look at the goals he scored against Villa, two of them are from Spurs being on the edge of the box, Bale receiving the ball in close proximity to the goal and then finishing well.

 

[Brightonian]

If the season so far somehow represents a shift in our style of football according to your mind, then the shift isn't any less accommodating to Bale than it was previously, with it being more or less the same style and all.

I'm willing to concede that I could easily be wrong about whether or not Bale would fit in with our current style of football. I think also there may be a miscommunication about when I see this shift in style (which you say doesn't exist) as occurring. It's not new this season, it's something that's been happening for the last two or three seasons.

 

[MrMojo]

I agree with you that we're moving towards a different style, with a very fluid interchangeable attacks, but I think you have done a real disservice to Bale in your previous posts. He's not simply a kick and run merchant (I know you haven't outrightly said this) but it's what he's made his name for because of the style that Spurs play. But he's shown in games for Spurs that he's a clever player who has the ability to drift around, picking up space in holes and capitalising on slower-thinking defences. Look at the goals he scored against Villa, two of them are from Spurs being on the edge of the box, Bale receiving the ball in close proximity to the goal and then finishing well.

I think people want this so much that they are beginning to imagine it.

 

[Fergus' son]

I'm willing to concede that I could easily be wrong about whether or not Bale would fit in with our current style of football. I think also there may be a miscommunication about when I see this shift in style (which you say doesn't exist) as occurring. It's not new this season, it's something that's been happening for the last two or three seasons.

And there we have it.

 

[Ash_G]

Bale has seemed to add a lot to his game and I don't think he's as limited as Valencia can be in tight areas but he's not as comfortable in it as players who are more about technique than power.

But that's fine, I think Bale is the sort who will always be a worry for other teams because he is a powerhouse, pace and strength is always a great asset to have. My concern would be particularly in europe that if we had Bale and Young/Valencia than we would be a bit one dimensional, although Bale is better atm his game is much more about exposing space than it is making something in a tight area, similarly to Valencia.

We've seen in the past how England and english teams have struggled internationally/in europe because there isn't often enough of a balance between physical ability and technical ability. Even for pl teams they can and have been shown up for not dealing with tight games well enough.

That's why I think Bale and Nani as a combo would be great, whereas Bale and Valencia/Young whilst still would be dangerous, all of them are good players, too good for it to be ineffective, but it wouldn't be as good as a combo off power and pace (Bale/Valencia) with a strong technical player (Nani).

If we could bring in bale for one off Valencia/Young then that would be awesome but as I've said before although none of our wingers are playing particularly well I don't think we're at the point yet where we would need to consider spending the sort of cash spurs would demand to bring in Bale.

 

[Brightonian]

And there we have it.

Willing to concede that opinion=subjective. Must be wrong.

No wonder arguing with you is such a barrel of laughs.

I agree with you that we're moving towards a different style, with a very fluid interchangeable attacks, but I think you have done a real disservice to Bale in your previous posts. He's not simply a kick and run merchant (I know you haven't outrightly said this) but it's what he's made his name for because of the style that Spurs play. But he's shown in games for Spurs that he's a clever player who has the ability to drift around, picking up space in holes and capitalising on slower-thinking defences. Look at the goals he scored against Villa, two of them are from Spurs being on the edge of the box, Bale receiving the ball in close proximity to the goal and then finishing well.

I definitely didn't mean to imply that I think he's a kick and run merchant. I agree with your assessment of him. I was just suggesting that the directness of his play might cause him problems in our current side, because we've been playing very patiently and not looking for the quickest route to goal the way we used to. He's very multitalented - he can dribble, shoot from distance, cross, burst into the box and tap in. He's a pretty complete footballer. But it's always about getting the ball in the goal asap, and for better or worse that hasn't been how we've played this season.

Kagawa seems to be getting his head round the same thing at the moment, in that he doesn't always get the ball in an advanced position even if he's available, and that we don't always have someone making an overlapping run the way Dortmund did. He often turns beautifully, finds no-one ahead of him, and is forced to turn around and look for a sideways or backwards pass instead.

 

[peterstorey]

The biggest misconception is that a player can't be fouled if the contact is light, even if it impedes him. Bale was fouled. Few on here will admit it for some reason, despite the GIF clearly showing it.

It can be a foul if the contact is light AND it causes the player to trip (perfectly possible but equally clearly not the case here - which is why Bale goes over in a straight line and in an artificial manner, which is not what would have happened if there had been significant impact).

 

[lunchforthesky]

God forbid we use English and a couple more words than necessary.

If only Fergie had thought about this short one-two passing you refer to years ago, who knows what we could have won. The idea that our current style isn't working is a joke right, how many goals have scored this season?

We play now as we've always played. We've always counter attacked quickly, before and after Ronaldo. We play with two wingers, two midfielders, a striker and a deep lying striker. How succesful this is depends on how good the acquisitions are.

You're just overcomplicating football n my opinion.

So do you think Barcelona and Spain are so successful because of the style of football they play or just because they had a load of good players come through at once?

Don't you think that the change in styles to tiki taka (obviously they've always played like this a bit but they took in to the extreme around 2008 and since then) had enabled Spain and Barcelona to make the most of the strengths Spanish players have always had?

I think tactics, playstyles and formations are really important, there's more to why some football teams win and others don't than just the players you have.

And if you agree that tactics, playstyle and formations are important, do you think that the classic Ferguson method you described is the system that best suits our current team? Is it the most effective way to play period no matter what era of football you're in or who you're playing?

 

[MrMojo]

So do you think Barcelona and Spain are so successful because of the style of football they play or just because they had a load of good players come through at once?

Don't you think that the change in styles to tiki taka (obviously they've always played like this a bit but they took in to the extreme around 2008 and since then) had enabled Spain and Barcelona to make the most of the strengths Spanish players have always had?

I think tactics, playstyles and formations are really important, there's more to why some football teams win and others don't than just the players you have.

And if you agree that tactics, playstyle and formations are important, do you think that the classic Ferguson method you described is the system that best suits our current team? Is it the most effective way to play period no matter what era of football you're in or who you're playing?

It's 90% players in my opinion.

I'm not sure what the relevance of your post is but my opinion of the best style is unimportant for this debate it's what's actually happening that's relevant. In that sense I see no differing from the classic Ferguson style, which back to the thread topic, would suit Bale perfectly.

 

[shaggy]

How is bale ever going to come to us? We'd have to break the British record and levy would still sell him abroad. Furthermore bale seems to be interested in la liga much more than your typical British player. Levy will do a Modric with him.

He'll move to a big club at some point, why not us? We all know Fergie loves wingers. If he can spend £17 million on Young with one year left on his contract, then he can sign Bale for £40 million. We signed RvP a 29 year old for £24 million, we clearly can spend big if we wish too. Bale would also not receive any where near as much media attention in Spain than in England, and I get the feeling he loves seeing his name whored out in the media. I can't see Bale rejecting us if we ever decided to make a move. Obviously if Barca/Madrid also start bidding, it may be a problem, but I don't think Barca will/need too.

 

[Ruud10]

Bale would make us a better team, but until Nani is actually gone it's premature to speculate about Bale. Unless, of course, the odd man out is Valencia and not Nani.

What we do know is that Levy would want a massive transfer fee, a fee that could be applied to more pressing needs. For that reason alone, I just don't see Bale coming to United.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Levy would squeeze every last penny out of us and it would take all summer.

If we were to give Spurs 50m [the figure could yet be higher] which still leaves the wages to be accounted for, what would be remaining for the rest of the squad?

Is securing a player even of his ability worth the impact it could have on solving more acute weaknesses in the team? I don't believe so. JMHO of course.

 

[lunchforthesky]

It's 90% players in my opinion.

I'm not sure what the relevance of your post is but my opinion of the best style is unimportant for this debate it's what's actually happening that's relevant. In that sense I see no differing from the classic Ferguson style, which back to the thread topic, would suit Bale perfectly.

Do you think Barcelona would have been more or less successful under Guardiola than they would under say Ferguson, Benitez or Mourinho?

Would Barcelona be just as good playing a counter attacking 4-4-2 with Fabregas playing in behind Messi, Iniesta on the left and Pedro on the right with Xavi and Busquets through the middle?

 

[apotheosis]

I think that's a complete myth. Players get fouls called while staying on their feet all the time while players who fall down when it was a foul get told to get up and play on every single game. For the most part I'd say falling down only helps when simulating a foul that never actually took place, the rest of the time it makes little difference either way.

Not a complete myth surely. I take your point that fouls are indeed given when players are fouled but stay on their feet outside of the box. But surely you would have to concede there is at least some substance to claims that in and around the box, where a ref's ruling would usually prove more definitive in regards of potential influence upon a result, then a player has got more chance of getting a penalty if he goes down from contact, than if he stays on his feet..

Not saying it's right, or that i agree with it, but it does seem to happen a lot, because the ref is put in a position where he has to make a call one way or the other. I happen to agree there are many occasions where players could have stayed on their feet despite obvious contact, but choose not to. But i also have to admit that situations where players do stay on their feet after being fouled, tend not to be 'rewarded', as often as when they go down.

I find it difficult to comprehend why so many players would choose to go down, if they do not view doing so as potentially more advantageous than staying on their feet.

 

[Theon]

I think people want this so much that they are beginning to imagine it.

Agreed.

 

[Theon]

So do you think Barcelona and Spain are so successful because of the style of football they play or just because they had a load of good players come through at once?

Don't you think that the change in styles to tiki taka (obviously they've always played like this a bit but they took in to the extreme around 2008 and since then) had enabled Spain and Barcelona to make the most of the strengths Spanish players have always had?

I think tactics, playstyles and formations are really important, there's more to why some football teams win and others don't than just the players you have.

And if you agree that tactics, playstyle and formations are important, do you think that the classic Ferguson method you described is the system that best suits our current team? Is it the most effective way to play period no matter what era of football you're in or who you're playing?

There is two points with regards tactics and formations IMO.

Firstly, no genuine tactic is inherently better than an other. I agree with Mr Mojo that tika taka isn't successful for Barca because of the tactic itself, but because of the players affinity and ability to play it properly. You can try and play short, slow, possession based football but it won't win you games unless the players are suited to it. Even then it's vulnerable to certain ways of playing, such as a side capable of sitting deep and countering quickly. Dortmund for example would be well matched against Barca IMO, despite having worse players. The reason Barca are so successful is first and foremost because they have Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc. Not because of tika taka.

Secondly, and I think this is the point you were making, tactics are important to get the most out of the players at your disposal. So whilst tika taka isn't the fundamental reason Barca were so good, it gave them the platform for maximising the output of their players. If they have played a flat 4-4-2 then they wouldnt have been as good because it wouldnt have got the most out of the players. It is therefore the secondary aspect of a team playing well, the primary one being the players themselves. You need good players, then you need a tactic to allow them to play to their potential.

I think recently people are getting too obsessed with the tactics themselves, especially a short possession based game and also a fluid, interchanging attack. They seem convinced that this is a 'better' way of playing when in reality it isnt at all.

 

[MrMojo]

Do you think Barcelona would have been more or less successful under Guardiola than they would under say Ferguson, Benitez or Mourinho?

Would Barcelona be just as good playing a counter attacking 4-4-2 with Fabregas playing in behind Messi, Iniesta on the left and Pedro on the right with Xavi and Busquets through the middle?

I don't know, it's so theoretical that it's hard to say, it probably wouldn't be quite as successful, but with those players and those managers, they'd still be trophy laden.

I still don't see the relevance of this to United and Bale.

 

[Raees]

 

[peterstorey]

I think recently people are getting too obsessed with the tactics themselves, especially a short possession based game and also a fluid, interchanging attack. They seem convinced that this is a 'better' way of playing when in reality it isnt at all.

The Dutch identified the optimal way of playing football with the concept of total football back in the 70s. All tactics are attempts to create that concept with inferior materials.

 

[Cevno]

Ahead of United's trip to White Hart Lane on Sunday, Ferguson said: "We tried to buy him from Southampton and they turned us down.

"It was not the boy who turned us down, it was Southampton, then a few weeks later he signed for Tottenham.

"It happens. You don't get them all. As I said before, we would have loved to have got (Paul) Gascoigne but we didn't - but we did get Paul Ince and he was a great player for us. These things happen."

On a weekend clash with fourth-placed Spurs, Ferguson added: "It's an important game because this is a period of the season that if we can keep our momentum going, we have got home games against Everton and Southampton in the next few weeks.

"These are really big opportunities for us."

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11661/8416886