Ballon D'or ... who will win it? who deserves it?

[Skorenzy]

It's definite proof to me that football ws not nearly as good in the Puskas years as it is now. He hadn't played football in 2 years but he could walk into the best team in Europe at age 31 despite of that. I also wonder if he'd get the same criticism that Berba got here because he scored bucket loads of goals against relegation fodder. For example, in his first season more than half of his league goals came in 4 matches. Real Madrid's amazing goal tally last season was the norm every season back then for Real and Barca.

People can dig up the very old legends as much as they like but I don't believe for a second that the standard of football was close to what it is today. Those players didn't even have to deal with 10 men behind the ball every match like Messi and co have to deal with week in and week out.

But that is a feat that is unique to the current Barcelona, nobody else in the current era has this same problem...

I don't know where to start with your 1st paragraph though; yes football was generally far more offensively orientated in the 50s and part of the 60s (although catenaccio came to the fore as well for a while), so that makes up for a large chunk of the extreme goalscoring that happened around that era, but even then no contemporaries of Di Stéfano or Puskás came close to replicating their records... For example, the legendary Just Fontaine had as a career record in Ligue 1 "only" a gpg ratio of 0.83, in a weaker league than the Spanish one, compared to a 31-39 year old Puskas' 0.87 in La Liga.

And yes Puskas scored many goals against relegation fodder, what striker doesn't?, you neglected to mention that he scored in countless finals (1952 Olympics, 1954 World Cup, he scored 4 goals in the 1960 EC final, 3 goals in the 1962 EC final against Eusébio's Benfica), he scored 14 goals in Clásico's, he was 4x top scorer of La Liga, 3x top scorer of the European Cup, retrospectively awarded the FIFA Golden Ball for the 1954 World Cup, etc...

Like I said, I don't think the inherent quality of era's is that much different, the main differences are in style/tactics or technology, but the relative difficulty of playing football stays the same; for example, if nowadays a 0.50 gpg rate is considered the average, then Messi and Ronaldo are blowing their contemporaries out of the water by being closer to 0.75 (career-wise); if in the 50s/60s the norm was let's say 0.75 gpg, then Puskás was far above it with a career gpg of around 1.00; relative to their eras they are all dominant. You can not go comparing era's in an absolute way, it has to be relative to the conditions of each era.

 

[Skorenzy]

An argument based on lies and misconceptions is no argument at all. And that's the bizarre thing, almost every argument about older players from those who haven't watched them is exactly like this. If you don't care enough to actually base your argument on, well, anything but hearsay then why bother making the argument at all? It's been said 100x before, it's been wrong 100x before. Why do people spout such bollocks? Have you simply been misled and not checked it up or are you trying to mislead others? You don't need to make stuff up to prove football is better now. It is. It just hasn't been getting consistently better every decade in every league. At the moment Spain is a whipping ground for the big teams because they're just so much better than the rest because they have fantastic teams - just like it was in the mids 50s/60s. Honestly, that Madrid team was sensational, and it would be in any generation. Di Stefano would look like a god no matter when he played.

In the period 1955-1966 there were only 16 teams instead of the current 20, so their absolute number of goals may be lower, but GPG-wise it's more similar... the peak numbers are still in favor of current Barça and Real though, 3.56 for RM, 3.35 for Barça in 2011/12 compared to 3.07 for RM in 1959/60 and 3.20 for Barça in 1958/59.

The total averages over each 10 year period are roughly the same.

 

[Snow]

I didn't have a look at the years that Puskas wasn't playing. His main spell was between 58-64 which was the tally I was mostly looking at. You're right in that how I worded it made it wrong.

I'm not going to dismiss Puskas' or Di Stefano's talents if you think that. I'm saying that you can't compare the football at all. Some players were as great at attacking back then as they are now but you wouldn't get a player scoring a hat trick in the CL final now and despite that his team will lose by two goals. That just won't happen.

Your table shows that the Real team at the time was the pick of the litter. Average went up when certain players joined and steadily dropped as they got older and older. But they were still 34 year olds destroying a league. Not a team of players in their prime.

 

[Snow]

in how many games?

16 teams in the league, 30 games per team.

 

[Garethw]

Messi is by far the better player, but IMO Ronaldo should win it. It was his goals and general all round play that helped Real wrestle the title away from Barcelona.

It's a tough one to call this year.

 

[Snow]

Interesting stats, but they are somewhat misleading. In the period 1955-1966 there were only 16 teams instead of the current 20, so their absolute number of goals may be lower, but GPG-wise it's more similar... the peak numbers are still in favor of current Barça and Real though, 3.56 for RM, 3.35 for Barça in 2011/12 compared to 3.07 for RM in 1959/60 and 3.20 for Barça in 1958/59.

The total averages over each 10 year period are roughly the same.

It's actually 3,18 for Real in 11/12 and 3,0 for Barca compared to 3,2 for Barca in 58/59 and 3,07 for Real in 59/60. So 2nd best from Real last season and their personal best.

 

[Proud_Lyon]

Interesting stats, but they are somewhat misleading. In the period 1955-1966 there were only 16 teams instead of the current 20, so their absolute number of goals may be lower, but GPG-wise it's more similar... the peak numbers are still in favor of current Barça and Real though, 3.56 for RM, 3.35 for Barça in 2011/12 compared to 3.07 for RM in 1959/60 and 3.20 for Barça in 1958/59.

The total averages over each 10 year period are roughly the same.

Indeed, Real Madrid in the 1950s and 60s only played 30 games per season and not 38 so, the stats are misleading to say the least.

 

[Inspectah deck]

Messi is by far the better player, but IMO Ronaldo should win it. It was his goals and general all round play that helped Real wrestle the title away from Barcelona.

It's a tough one to call this year.

If you want to include team contributions, then seeing as it's a calendar year award, what about the latter part of the year that has seen Barcelona go 11 points clear of Madrid in a 4 month period?

 

[kouroux]

If you want to include team contributions, then seeing as it's a calendar year award, what about the latter part of the year that has seen Barcelona go 11 points clear of Madrid in a 4 month period?

The way he's started the season and is still doing will IMHO make Messi win it.It's always the freshest memory that makes the difference and right now there is a big difference between the two

 

[Snow]

But that is a feat that is unique to the current Barcelona, nobody else in the current era has this same problem...

I don't know where to start with your 1st paragraph though; yes football was generally far more offensively orientated in the 50s and part of the 60s (although catenaccio came to the fore as well for a while), so that makes up for a large chunk of the extreme goalscoring that happened around that era, but even then no contemporaries of Di Stéfano or Puskás came close to replicating their records... For example, the legendary Just Fontaine had as a career record in Ligue 1 "only" a gpg ratio of 0.83, in a weaker league than the Spanish one, compared to a 31-39 year old Puskas' 0.87 in La Liga.

And yes Puskas scored many goals against relegation fodder, what striker doesn't?, you neglected to mention that he scored in countless finals (1952 Olympics, 1954 World Cup, he scored 4 goals in the 1960 EC final, 3 goals in the 1962 EC final against Eusébio's Benfica), he scored 14 goals in Clásico's, he was 4x top scorer of La Liga, 3x top scorer of the European Cup, retrospectively awarded the FIFA Golden Ball for the 1954 World Cup, etc...

Like I said, I don't think the inherent quality of era's is that much different, the main differences are in style/tactics or technology, but the relative difficulty of playing football stays the same; for example, if nowadays a 0.50 gpg rate is considered the average, then Messi and Ronaldo are blowing their contemporaries out of the water by being closer to 0.75 (career-wise); if in the 50s/60s the norm was let's say 0.75 gpg, then Puskás was far above it with a career gpg of around 1.00; relative to their eras they are all dominant. You can not go comparing era's in an absolute way, it has to be relative to the conditions of each era.

Most top teams have to deal with that kind of defending. It's been changing in the PL but that's almost every game for United at Old Trafford until fairly recently. A few seasons in a row every CL match was like that. It's not now because teams believe they can beat us.

I agree with the bold bit and in imo it cannot be done with the generation of Puskas. I also agree with your original point about people being to stat obsessive. I've probably been running my mouth a bit too much in this thread but my point is valid enough. I don't normally talk about stuff that I don't know about. I rather just shut up.
When I posted the Ali Daei stat I was more reiterating your point rather than go against it. No player has scored more international goals. That's a misleading fact. Firstly he plays more games. Second, his average opponent is much poorer than for most players being discussed. It's likely to never get beaten but never say never.

 

[Brwned]

Indeed, Real Madrid in the 1950s and 60s only played 30 games per season and not 38 so, the stats are misleading to say the least.

Indeed, my mistake! The point remains the same - Di Stefano's Madrid and Messi's Barcelona had similarly ridiculous numbers, it's misleading to suggest that they were regularly tearing teams apart in a way that isn't seen currently in La Liga. This Barca/Madrid team over the next few years are going to continue be posting up the same absurd numbers as the original Madrid team. I see it as a reflection of the greatness of those sides, not a reflection of the weakness of those they're playing against.

 

[Proud_Lyon]

Indeed, my mistake! The point remains the same - Di Stefano's Madrid and Messi's Barcelona had similarly ridiculous numbers, it's misleading to suggest that they were regularly tearing teams apart in a way that isn't seen currently in La Liga. This Barca/Madrid team over the next few years are going to continue be posting up the same absurd numbers as the original Madrid team. I see it as a reflection of the greatness of those sides, not a reflection of the weakness of those they're playing against.

Unfortunately, we cannot predict what would have happened in those 8 games, but if they were to have scored at the same goals per game, for example; 1955/56, where they scored 81 goals, adding their gpg average would have made it 102 goals for the season, which is still somewhat short of last seasons Real Madrid record. Secondly, it is not your mistake since statistics can be interpreted with regards to certain conditions being fulfilled. What you didn't do was take into account the 30 games that Real Madrid played at that time. Even I have made big errors in statistics.

 

[Marcosdeto]

ok, IIRC next monday will be the ceremony

 

[Escobar]

I will probably be there. I'll try to speak to Ronaldo and ask about his move to United

 

[Amar__]

His answer will be: "Only God knows".

 

[100]

This takes place today. 18:30 - 20:00 CET which I think is an hour ahead of the UK, so 5:30 it is. There should be a livestream on the Fifa website for anyone wanting to watch it.

 

[JakeC]

Hearing rumours that this is the Fifa XI of the Year: Casillas, Alves, Marcelo, Piqué, Ramos, Alonso , Xavi, Iniesta, Falcao, Messi, Ronaldo

 

[PatrickP]

Hearing rumours that this is the Fifa XI of the Year: Casillas, Alves, Marcelo, Piqué, Ramos, Alonso , Xavi, Iniesta, Falcao, Messi, Ronaldo

If it is then thats a joke.

5 Real players
5 Barcelona players
1 Athletico Madrid Player

Considering no Spanish team was in the CL final either...

 

[Jippy]

This takes place today. 18:30 - 20:00 CET which I think is an hour ahead of the UK, so 5:30 it is. There should be a livestream on the Fifa website for anyone wanting to watch it.

Fifa events are so painfully dull. Ninety minutes as well...

 

[Gio]

Hearing rumours that this is the Fifa XI of the Year: Casillas, Alves, Marcelo, Piqué, Ramos, Alonso , Xavi, Iniesta, Falcao, Messi, Ronaldo

I wouldn't have Marcelo and Pique in a La Liga team never mind a worldwide one.

 

[Ainu]

If it is then thats a joke.

5 Real players
5 Barcelona players
1 Athletico Madrid Player

Considering no Spanish team was in the CL final either...

Spain did win the Euros in some style though, and that's a Uefa competition as well. I find myself agreeing with most of it. The front three pick themselves (RVP close to Falcao but the latter edges it with his unbelievable Europa League), Xavi and Iniesta are the 2 best midfielders in the world by a distance and Casillas probably had little competition as well.

However I'm not convinced by Alonso, as Pirlo has been majestic for both club in country in a similar position. I would also definately trade one of the CB's (probably Ramos) for Hummels. I honestly can't say much about Piqué, Alves or Marcelo as I haven't paid enough attention to them over the past 12 months.

So some disagreements but that's not nearly enough to call it a joke.

 

[Theon]

Hearing rumours that this is the Fifa XI of the Year: Casillas, Alves, Marcelo, Piqué, Ramos, Alonso , Xavi, Iniesta, Falcao, Messi, Ronaldo

Pique for feck sake..

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Pique again?

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

IMO there are no players who DEFINITELY should not be there, however I would argue personally with Casillas, Alves, Marcelo, Pique, Ramos. So basically the back 5... Anyone past that and its hard to knock them, as boring as that list is, IMO the forwards/mids deserve to be there.

 

[Castia]

Pep Guardiola is there and he's confirmed he will be coaching a team next season.

 

[KingEric7]

It would be more than a little silly if Pique made this list. Another sign that many don't actually watch the players and just go by reputation/previous achievement and performance.

Who gets to vote here? Is it the managers and players?

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Pep Guardiola is there and he's confirmed he will be coaching a team next season.

He's confirmed that he will be coaching a team next season? Does that indicate he has signed a pre-contract, or more suggesting he is looking to accept an offer at the end of this term?

 

[lunchforthesky]

How is the Team of the Year actually picked?

 

[Castia]

He's confirmed that he will be coaching a team next season? Does that indicate he has signed a pre-contract, or more suggesting he is looking to accept an offer at the end of this term?

The actual quote was "I'll be training a team next year, but I still don't know where"

 

[adexkola]

Guardiola confirmed he'll be coaching next season? That explains Benitez's temporary appointment...

I wouldn't have Iniesta in there.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

If that team is confirmed, the only one who I think it's pretty ridiculous for him to be in there is Piqué. I think Pepe has been brilliant at CB the past year, and Hummels would be a good shout too.

I agree with Ainu that Pirlo could (should) probably be in there instead of Xabi Alonso, and I agree that while RvP is maybe a better center forward than Falcao (and even then, it's only small margins), the Colombian definitely deserves to be in there for the Europa League run (and tearing Chelsea a new arsehole). Messi and Cristiano aren't really debatable, neither are Xavi and Iniesta (though I wonder if another midfielder than Xavi may have been put in there...). At the back, apart from what I said above, I'd have preferred Jordi Alba to Marcelo, but both are very very good and probably the best LBs in the game at the moment.

Ah I actually don't agree at all with the goalkeeper, but Casillas seems to have this sort of untouchable aura about him that always means he's mentioned as the best in the world, when I don't think he has been for at least a couple of seasons. He's a very, very good keeper, but I think there are better ones out there (Cech and Neuer for starters).

 

[Snow]

I wouldn't have Marcelo and Pique in a La Liga team never mind a worldwide one.

That's just mental.

 

[lunchforthesky]

If it is then thats a joke.

5 Real players
5 Barcelona players
1 Athletico Madrid Player

Considering no Spanish team was in the CL final either...

The only player who'd be really hard done by would be Pirlo. He's pretty much the only player not on the list who's been fantastic in the league and at the Euros and where his team has success in both, which is always a huge part of this.

Hummels's Dortmund won the league but had a really poor UCL Campaign and if anything Germany underpowered at the Euros and he himself wasn't particularly good.

Van Persie was great for Arsenal but they didn't win anything and he was really poor at the Euros, Falcao was equally good for Atletico but won his side the Europa League.

Yaya Toure's City were really bad in UCL both this and last year and he obviously wasn't able to show his ability in the Euros.

Lahm's Bayern didn't win the Bundesliga and as I said above Germany didn't really defend/do that well at the Euros given expectations. Although personally I'd probably have Lahm in over Alves who's the weirdest pick on the list for me.

Thiago Silva didn't play for teams that won anything.

Kompany, again City were poor in the UCL and Belgium didn't qualify for the Euros.

 

[Jaap]

No Terry?

 

[adexkola]

Personally, I don't see the point in using calendar years for this award. The award should cover an entire season, and any international competitions that occurred during the club season (ACN for example), or immediately after (Euros, Copa, World Cup).

 

[Leg-End]

So its a World XI of the players who were in teams that won things rather than the 11 best individual players in their respective positions in the calendar year. That's not to say my 11 picks would look much different than that possible FIFA list but you could argue all night about picking a better back 5, Pique hasn't been one of the two best center backs of 2012 ffs.

 

[lunchforthesky]

So its a World XI of the players who were in teams that won things rather than the 11 best individual players in their respective positions in the calendar year. That's not to say my 11 picks would look much different than that possible FIFA list but you could argue all night about picking a better back 5, Pique hasn't been one of the two best center backs of 2012 ffs.

It's pretty much always been like this.

 

[adexkola]

Yeah, at the top level, trophies and team honors matter.

 

[Leg-End]

It's pretty much always been like this.

It has, can't deny that. All lists are pointless bollocks anyway.

 

[Skorenzy]

Yeah, at the top level, trophies and team honors matter.

Tell that to Stanley Matthews, Denis Law, Kevin Keegan (1978) and Platini (1983) when they won their Ballon d'Or...

I do agree that trophies should be held into account, but more in the sense of the player's impact in achieving it than just the mere fact of having achieved it.