I'm not telling you shouldn't have your opinion, I am just criticizing it just like we are allowed in forums.
Ballon D'or ... who will win it? who deserves it?
- Thread starter Marcosdeto
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I'm not telling you shouldn't have your opinion, I am just criticizing it just like we are allowed in forums.
They don't get offended. They are just expressing their opinions about your opinion.
No surprises that Messi won. Some of the pictures of Ronaldo during the announcement are amusing
I think there is a huge difference between how many shots a player takes and how much they are "fed" by the rest of the team. Darron Gibson probably shot more per minute vs any player in our team, it doesn't mean that the team were feeding him, it just means he was taking long range efforts, which means he will inherently score a lower % vs someone like Hernandez.
I'm sure if you looked at where the shots were taken from it would highlight for instance that Ronaldo's average shot is much further away. Stats aside if you watch both players it is clear to me that Barcelona is totally geared toward feeding Messi, whereas Ronaldo is similar to how he was in a United shirt. I'm sure the opposite is true for the Barcelona team, I bet the rare ranged efforts are likely to come from the likes of Fabregas, Iniesta, Sanchez, Pedro.
That's why I disagree with your bold statement. I personally do not think Ronaldo was the best player in the world in 2012 (I think he was if you look at the 11/12 season), but I can see why some people wouldn't vote for Messi.
I think it's not about feeding Messi but more about Messi creating something. Almost every attack runs through him, that's right. But he's far more involved in the build up than Ronaldo. So "feeding" seems like the wrong word in my opinion. Ronaldo is way more running around the pitch without the ball, so he's more dependent on other players feeding him. If you look at Xavi's assists over the last years, you pretty much see what has changed.
11/12 8 assists in the league
10/11 7 assists
09/10 14 assists
08/09 22 assists
With Eto'o and Henry the attacking players were running towards the goal without the ball and the midfield played lots of through balls. Now it's Messi taking the ball into the penalty area with dribblings and 1-2s. As much as I love watching Messi play the game, I really would like to see how Barca would play without him for a while. Xavi would be a way more amazing player with someone like Ronaldo or Falcao running without the ball behind the defense all the time. Now Xavi scores more than he asssists, because he's the one doing the running without the ball (5 goals/4 assists this season, 10 goals/8 assists last season compared to 6 goals / 22 assists in 08/09) with Messi creating for him.
So Messi is for sure even more the focal point of Barca's attack than Ronaldo is at Real. But in no way the players around Messi are feeding him goals like Özil, Benzema, di Maria, Alonso are doing it for Ronaldo.
I think at Madrid the likes of Ronaldo, Higuain, Benzema all get a steady amount of chances. As an example Benzema and Higuain have scored 65-70 in there last 125 games, whilst Ronaldo has scored around 125. This is a pretty normal split between your 3 main goalscorers and I'm guessing pretty similar to ours with Rooney, Hernandez and RVP.
Whenever I watch Madrid I think that if you put someone else in their team, say RVP, he would probably score somewhere in between Benzema and Ronaldo, say 36-40 league goals a season. I think if you put RVP in Barcelona's team I could imagine him scoring 50 league goals. That is the difference in my opinion.
I don't believe that at all. Messi is everything in the final third for Barcelona. Xavi may control the tempo from deeper but it's Messi who directs the offence. He doesn't just score or assist, he's involved in the attacks every step of the way. He's either involved in the build up to help create easy chances, fashions easy chances for himself through his dribbling ability or simply scores ridiculous goals through his stupendous finishing ability.
Saying that Barça is geared towards helping Messi score is one (and imo wrong) way of looking at it, another is saying Messi is just so dominant that he forces the issue. There's no one in the world who can do all the things Messi does. Being a world class attacking playmaker AND the highest goal scorer of all time? That's effectively two legendary players in one. No one gets even close.
Saying that Barça is geared towards helping Messi score is one (and imo wrong) way of looking at it, another is saying Messi is just so dominant that he forces the issue. There's no one in the world who can do all the things Messi does. Being a world class attacking playmaker AND the highest goal scorer of all time? That's effectively two legendary players in one. No one gets even close.
So you think van Persie would equal Messi's goal scoring record last season? The best ever in La Liga? Scoring more than Ronaldo last season without him missing a single game? Come on. I love van Persie, but that doesn't make sense at all. In no way is van Persie capable of doing what Messi did last season.
Only as delusional as over half of the actual voters who didn't vote for Messi?
Whilst Messi being the best player around is a popular opinion, it's by no means agreed to by everyone in the football world.
that's not true at all
taken from the newbies:
Well in Arsenal's team last season RVP scored 30 league goals in a team that scored 74 in total. Barcelona scored 114 goals last season. Working on the same ratio he would score 47 for Barcelona.
Now if you ask me if he'd have contributed the same as Messi in anything other than goals scored I'd say definitely not.
at Cal still trying.Okay, now it totally makes sense. Huntelaar scored 29 league goals out of Schalke's 74 last season. So he probably would score 44-45 goals as well, if he played for Barca?
Messi's contribution in anything other than goals scored is what helped scoring a total of 114 goals. It helped to score even against very defensive minded teams a lot of goals in a league with less goals on average per game (so much about the shit defending in La Liga compared to the premier league). So basing RVP hypothetical contribution on the total number of goals Barca scored without him is a stupid idea, don't you think?
The difference is I'm comparing arguably the best striker in the world in the toughest league in the world, with the worlds best player in a slightly easier league. You're comparing a mediocre player in a relatively poor league (outside the top 2). If you're going to take it to ridiculous extremes then you should have used Afonso Alves or Mateja Kezman in the Dutch league as an example.
You say that Messi is one of the only reasons Barcelona scored 114 goals last season, which is partly true, which is why I said the other things that Messi brings to the table is what makes him the best player in the world. The fact is however that Real Madrid scored 121 goals, so you have to accept (at least to some degree) that it is much easier to score goals in La Liga than the Premiership?
That said, do you believe that RVP would have scored more or less at the forefront of Barcelona's attack vs Arsenal's and if so by how much? Considering the winners and runners up of La Liga average about 25-30% more goals than their PL counterparts I certainly don't think 40+ is a stretch. Hell, Falcao is playing for a side whose wage bill is around 25-30% Barcelona's (comparable to maybe Everton?) and I wouldn't be surprised if he got 35 goals this season.
completely disagree with the first part.
I don't think there's been an easier league for strikers to score in over the past couple of seasons than the Premier League (of the top 4 leagues). Even Michu seems to be finding it much easier to hit the net their.
I also think Falcao has done more than enough to earn his tag as the best centre forward in the world currently.
It's a crazy hypothesis you're using anyway, Zlatan was free scoring for Inter and currently PSG, look how well that worked for him with Barca.
I can't believe that Messi got away with it again.
Seriously, it's ridiculous. Did you see that suit he was wearing? Atrocious!
Seriously, it's ridiculous. Did you see that suit he was wearing? Atrocious!
Messi wasn't injured in 2011-12 and Barcelona didn't win anything of note (unless one counts the mighty Copa del Rey!).
Comparing a club season to a month-long competition is well off, especially in today's football climate. It's not remotely comparable.
Brazil had amazing players in those World Cup wins and Pele was the crown jewel. Winning in 1962 proved they were already the greatest national side in the world, and it can be/is used to belittle Pele's significance, rightly or wrongly. But in 1966 Brazil were dumped out after Pele was literally booted out to the tournament, thus losing their most influential player.
Having never seen Pele play I can't really claim he was the greatest. I have seen Maradona play but that was near the end of his career and he was exceptional then. Messi is excpetional as well.
Outright impossible to really compare players from different eras. All three played in different football climates. And as such each should lay claim as the best player of their generation and an endless debate for GOAT (which is clearly Titus Bramble).
There shouldn't be a doubt in anyone's mind that RVP would light up La Liga playing for Barca or Real. He'd easily top 35-40 goals currently.
Or he could win the Champions League top scorer award four years in a row and he could score in two Champions League finals while playing exceptionally in both. If only he were capable of doing that.
something that I do find surprising.
In the old format I would have put my house on Iniesta taking the award due to the European championships. But according to Marcotti the media votes were as follows:
40.7% of the weighted votes and 55% of first-place tallies for Messi, while Ronaldo managed 26.3% and 22%.
In the old format I would have put my house on Iniesta taking the award due to the European championships. But according to Marcotti the media votes were as follows:
40.7% of the weighted votes and 55% of first-place tallies for Messi, while Ronaldo managed 26.3% and 22%.
That's not surprising at all. The big international competitions used to be the determining factor for a simple reason: quite often there were no clearly outstanding players during the whole season. Messi, however, is doing it every week at a level not really seen before.
The Spanish League is much easier to score if you play for one of the big two than the Premier League, I can't believe that's even in doubt.
As more evidence, Barcelona's wage bill (the wage bill of a club is hugely correlated with the success) is equal to the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th teams combined. The bottom 13 teams of La Liga are comparable with our Championship in terms of wage bill. Do you think United would score more or less in the Championship with our team, where there would be a similar disparity?
Almost every season lately Real Madrid and Barcelona score 20-30% more goals than any Premier league team. In nearly half of Barcelona's games this season they have won by 3 or more goals, to argue that it isn't easier to score is absurd.
The references to Zlatan are strange. Zlatan was playing second fiddle at Barcelona and still kept up his rough average of 1 every 2 games, I'm sure you can read his personal opinions on the matter all over the internet. I'm sure Michu is benefiting from playing with half decent players tbf.
bollocks, bollocks and more bollocks.
Villa, Zlatan and Benzema. 3 world class strikers who have struggled badly for goals at times playing for Spain's big two.
The absurd goal totals of the two teams are down to Messi and Ronaldo being far better at putting the ball in the net than everyone else in the game. That's clear as day.
Apparently Messi didn't even vote for Ronaldo.
That's a bit small time if true.
That's a bit small time if true.
I really can't answer that question. I'm pretty sure Barca would play a different style with van Persie instead of Messi. I think he's capable of scoring 30-40 goals in a dominating team, but I don't think Barca would be similar dominating without Messi. Like I said before, you make it sound like 40+ isn't very special. Falcao scored 24 goals last season. Villa never had 30 goals a season, if I remember correctly. Aguero never more than 20 in La Liga. C. Ronaldo only scored 26 in his first season, 40 in his second. Van Persie must help the team to play equally dominating like Ronaldo and Messi do and then score like these two in their best ever seasons. So 40+ is a huge stretch, it means to equal record breaking seasons of all time greats.
I used Huntelaar because Schalke played Arsenal this season in the champions league and I thought both teams aren't far apart in quality overall and both finished on similar positions in their respective league last season. I don't think there's much between Bundesliga and Premier League in quality overall. Developments in european competitions point in that direction, as do results between german and english teams in recent years. Teams like Malaga (54 goals last season) and Atletico (53 goals last season) score overall way less goals in the league than comparable teams in England like Arsenal or Tottenham, so I don't believe it's easy to score these amounts of goals in La Liga for top teams with great attacking players. I don't get the wage bill comment, always thought it's about the squad's quality not about how much a player gets paid.
More importantly I used Huntelaar because as a pure goal scorer he is not far off RVP. Van Persie is overall a way better player though because he's able to create for himself, he's technically far more gifted and a better team player. All those things lead to him helping his team score more goals than the same team with Huntelaar upfront would do. So Huntelaar actually is a perfect fit as an example for the point I'm trying to make. His overall contribution lacks compared to van Persie as does van Persie's compared to Messi.
We have to agree to disagree at that point though. Your view of the other european leagues seems to totally differ from mine. Players like Michu, Aguero, Cisse and Demba Ba walked into the premier league and scored for fun. Demba Ba significantly improved his goal scoring rates in england compared to germany, hell even Dzeko has a better minutes/goal rate in the premier league than before in germany. The premier league had the highest goals/game average of the top 4 european leagues last season. Yet you're basing your point on the opinion that it's harder to score goals in England which (sadly) really is ridiculous nowadays.
/edit:
ah, thanks, Snake
. Good to know, that I'm not fighting alone here.Bobby McMahon (I think it was him, I could be wrong) mentioned Zlatan/Barca issue a few weeks ago. He (or another) mentioned that Zlatan got off to a hot start initially but that Messi didn't like how the formation was set up that had him wider so he moaned to Pep who tinkered the formation and forced Zlatan out wide.
The Barca setup is designed to benefit Messi no doubt, just like United did so for Ronaldo. Nothing wrong in setting up a system that suits the best player. However, had they stuck with the initial setup Zlatan would have been sensational there.
McMahon seems to be very knowledgeable and has never struck me as having a bias for or against a club or player. If indeed it was him that stated this.
I really can't answer that question. I'm pretty sure Barca would play a different style with van Persie instead of Messi. I think he's capable of scoring 30-40 goals in a dominating team, but I don't think Barca would be similar dominating without Messi. Like I said before, you make it sound like 40+ isn't very special. Falcao scored 24 goals last season. Villa never had 30 goals a season, if I remember correctly. Aguero never more than 20 in La Liga. C. Ronaldo only scored 26 in his first season, 40 in his second. Van Persie must help the team to play equally dominating like Ronaldo and Messi do and then score like these two in their best ever seasons. So 40+ is a huge stretch, it means to equal record breaking seasons of all time greats.
I used Huntelaar because Schalke played Arsenal this season in the champions league and I thought both teams aren't far apart in quality overall and both finished on similar positions in their respective league last season. I don't think there's much between Bundesliga and Premier League in quality overall. Developments in european competitions point in that direction, as do results between german and english teams in recent years. Teams like Malaga (54 goals last season) and Atletico (53 goals last season) score overall way less goals in the league than comparable teams in England like Arsenal or Tottenham, so I don't believe it's easy to score these amounts of goals in La Liga for top teams with great attacking players. I don't get the wage bill comment, always thought it's about the squad's quality not about how much a player gets paid.
More importantly I used Huntelaar because as a pure goal scorer he is not far off RVP. Van Persie is overall a way better player though because he's able to create for himself, he's technically far more gifted and a better team player. All those things lead to him helping his team score more goals than the same team with Huntelaar upfront would do. So Huntelaar actually is a perfect fit as an example for the point I'm trying to make. His overall contribution lacks compared to van Persie as does van Persie's compared to Messi.
We have to agree to disagree at that point though. Your view of the other european leagues seems to totally differ from mine. Players like Michu, Aguero, Cisse and Demba Ba walked into the premier league and scored for fun. Demba Ba significantly improved his goal scoring rates in england compared to germany, hell even Dzeko has a better minutes/goal rate in the premier league than before in germany. The premier league had the highest goals/game average of the top 4 european leagues last season. Yet you're basing your point on the opinion that it's harder to score goals in England which (sadly) really is ridiculous nowadays.
/edit:
ah, thanks, Snake
You're not alone, Villa, Zlatan and Benzema have struggled at times, some of them struggled bad, that alone disproves the notion top players can go to either of those two sides and just score for fun.
You can't just say x scored 20 in the premier league for that team so he'd scored 40 in la liga for that other team. There's too many variables, no doubt RVP would be a success pretty much anywhere, but if he was playing for Barca he'd find himself playing against teams with everyone back behind the ball regularly, how would that affect his game? these are the kind of things people tend to ignore.
I don't mind Messi voting for his friends and team mates. Ronaldo should have done the same, give the points to Casillas, Özil, Alonso or di Maria. Show your team mates respect for winning the title with you. Nothing wrong with that, imo.
Interestingly, Ronaldo didn't vote at all. He let his co-captain vote, who conveniently voted for Ronaldo, Falcao and van Persie. So the portugese national team captain's vote went to Ronaldo himself (wouldn't be allowed if Ronaldo didn't miss the vote) and to an Atletico player, Real's local rival. Yet Ronaldo is the one crying about not feeling praised and loved enough by fans and team mates?
If Messi's way is a bit small time, what's Ronaldo's?
I don't think La Liga is easier to score in than the Premier League. I do think the other 18 teams are overrated in a sense. What teams other than Real and Barcelona have done anything of note in the Champions League past the group stages?
La Liga isn't a sunny SPL, but the only thing that sets it apart from the rest of the world is the 2 teams at the top.
La Liga isn't a sunny SPL, but the only thing that sets it apart from the rest of the world is the 2 teams at the top.
That is petty by both players IMO, but really more so by Ronaldo in looking to capture more votes. But that's presuming Alves was not going to cast a vote for Messi (perhaps that was the agreement).
Do they really not like one another? I never got that notion from the likes Zidane, Ronaldo, Henry, Kahn, et al. I can understand Ronaldo's jealousy - a true phenom yet he's never going to be recognized as the best of his generation - but cannot understand why Messi seems to dislike Ronaldo. If I'm the greatest there is I could care less if my adversary is not voting for me - I'd still vote for him to give him the deserved recognition. I still know that I'm the best and that I'm going to be voted as the best. Or perhaps Messi truly felt that giving a vote to Ronaldo could ultimately cost him an award, which is also a bit petty.
It's clear as day both are one-two in the world right now and voting others ahead is petty.
Do they really not like one another? I never got that notion from the likes Zidane, Ronaldo, Henry, Kahn, et al. I can understand Ronaldo's jealousy - a true phenom yet he's never going to be recognized as the best of his generation - but cannot understand why Messi seems to dislike Ronaldo. If I'm the greatest there is I could care less if my adversary is not voting for me - I'd still vote for him to give him the deserved recognition. I still know that I'm the best and that I'm going to be voted as the best. Or perhaps Messi truly felt that giving a vote to Ronaldo could ultimately cost him an award, which is also a bit petty.
It's clear as day both are one-two in the world right now and voting others ahead is petty.
I never argued that the Premier League didn't have a higher overall goals/game ratio (if that's true), as we have a relatively balanced league. Barcelona and Madrid are in a league where they average 3 goals a game, because they can afford to pay their players somewhere between 4 and 10 times more than anyone else in the league. As I said it's like putting Manchester United and City into the Championship and seeing if RVP and Aguero score more or less, I'd assume more.
Again I'll ignore the Huntelaar point because it's irrelevant. As a counterargument to Michu how about you look at Kone who plays for Wigan, nearly 1 in 2 for Levante last season, not even 1 in 3 this season. Both examples are too circumstantial to come to a firm conclusion, particularly when the point was about the top 2 teams pummeling everyone else.
You are essentially proving my point by naming Spanish teams that struggle scoring... This is because most Spanish teams aren't that great, outside of the top 2. When was the last time you saw a Spanish team not in the top 2 do really well in Europe, like Chelsea winning it last year? In fact when was the last time a Spanish team even reached the quarters; was it 5 years ago when Villarreal got destroyed by Arsenal after barely beating a poor Greek team in the round before? Has another team ever been in the semi's in the last decade?!
If you genuinely don't think it's easier to score as a striker at Real/Barcelona vs the Premier League and the stats won't persuade you then I urge you to actual watch La Liga highlights and look at the defending week in week out, it's often atrocious. Not to mention 90% of teams try to beat Barcelona by playing attacking passing Football.
Those 3 strikers are all playing second fiddle to a main goalscorer, though. If you are comparing Benzema, Villa or Zlatan to anyone you should be comparing them to the likes of Hernandez/Rooney/Mata/Cazorla this season.
Not sure exactly what you mean by the bolded part - are you suggesting Barcelona play against more defensive teams, or more open teams?
Well, back in 2006 Villarreal reached the Semi-Final on their CL debut and in 2008 the Quarter-Final (they're now in 2nd division
), Valencia has reached a couple of QFs recently as well, and this season there's all 4 Spanish sides going through to the knockout stages. They haven't done too much in the CL it's true, but in the UEFA Cup/EL they've been extremely dominant in recent years.You must be confusing Barcelona with Real Madrid... back in 2009/10 most teams still played openly against Barcelona, but since then it's been almost nothing but parked busses. Against Real most teams play very open because they don't dominate to the extent Barcelona do. That's basically the only reason RM score so much; if every team parked the bus like they do against Barcelona they wouldn't score 100 goals in a season I'm fairly certain.
Well, back in 2006 Villarreal reached the Semi-Final on their CL debut and in 2008 the Quarter-Final (they're now in 2nd division
In recent years, but my point is they haven't done much in Europe's premier competition. Dare I say Serie A and the Bundesliga have done better in this regard, not to mention the Premier League. Let's see how Malaga and Valencia do next month.
The Uefa Cup winners comprise mainly of teams that don't do much in the league, and Champions League teams that happened to drop through the 3rd place crack in the group stages, into the competition.
Ronaldo will have one or two pot shots a game mostly from freekicks, but most of his shots (and goals) are from in and around the 18 yard box, as seen in the image below
Here is Messi's, not that different is it?
Second part in bold, some did yes, as reflected in the vote and I agree with that point, but to claim there is some sort of sentimental reason as to why Messi is scoring more goals is false, you're talking about a professional club that have millions of pounds at stake here, you really think Barca are playing to Messi to improve his goal stats?
What you're forgetting is that Messi as a player pretty much plays the role of Ozil and Ronaldo at the same (damn!) time in the team, he's both the offensive playmaker and the biggest goal threat in team hence the value of his skillset to the team requires that he gets on the ball more. Tactically, it is the right thing to do, you'd be absolutely mad not to feed him the ball because he's a very safe option to pass to even when crowded by 5 players, that is a midfielders dream, his decision making is fantastic and as a consequence of that scores and creates shitloads.
He had 29 assists last season despite Fabregas and the likes missing 10 + sitters from the chances he created, one of them against Madrid at the Nou camp(Xavi) and numerous of them against Chelsea, any of those chances converted and they suddenly had a strong chance to win either the league or CL even with half of their squad out of form, mostly because of him, context and all.
What you're forgetting is that Messi as a player pretty much plays the role of Ozil and Ronaldo at the same (damn!) time in the team, he's both the offensive playmaker and the biggest goal threat in team hence the value of his skillset to the team requires that he gets on the ball more. Tactically, it is the right thing to do, you'd be absolutely mad not to feed him the ball because he's a very safe option to pass to even when crowded by 5 players, that is a midfielders dream, his decision making is fantastic and as a consequence of that scores and creates shitloads.
He had 29 assists last season despite Fabregas and the likes missing 10 + sitters from the chances he created, one of them against Madrid at the Nou camp(Xavi) and numerous of them against Chelsea, any of those chances converted and they suddenly had a strong chance to win either the league or CL even with half of their squad out of form, mostly because of him, context and all.
The logic on here regarding shots taken is flawed.
I actually think that those two pictures kind of prove my point. Look at how clustered Messi's 6 yard box is! You can barely see green!
I also think you misinterpreted what I was saying slightly. I wasn't saying that Barcelona feed Messi just to improve his goal tally, they feed him because he is the best finisher/dribbler. My point was that they have 8 awesome players which more often than not feed him for this reason.
At Madrid the purpose of Higuain/Benzema is not to get Ronaldo more goals, it's to get goals. The purpose of Ozil/Di Maria/Modric etc is to feed the 3 front men, or which ever 2 are playing. Much like at United the wingers are employed to feed RVP, Hernandez and Rooney. In my opinion the roles of Iniesta, Xavi, Alba, Busquets, Fabregas, Pedro etc is either to feed Messi or to feed someone who in turn will feed Messi.
Barcelona have employed a system where everything ends up with Messi. It's the same as how Liverpool have everything go through Suarez and in turn Suarez has scored half of their goals this season. If your entire teams ethos is to play in one player and you have World Class players built around this ethos, you are bound to have incredibly impressive stats if you are a good player, let alone an incredible one.
It matters in tight games where you only get one or two chances to score and you have to be very economical with the ball, no?
Messi hd 29 assists last season, and created the most goal scoring chances in whole of La Liga last season after, guess who? Ozil, who feeds? Ronaldo.
So how can the player creating the most chances be the one who is being fed the ball by 8 players mate?!
Because (and I'll say this for the umpteenth time)... everything goes to Messi. Everything is built to give it to Messi. Apart from Gerrard, do you know who has the most assists for Liverpool this season, despite scoring nearly 50% of their goals... You guessed it... Suarez.
I'll requote myself from my last post:
La Liga's problem since the mid-00s has been inconsistency, which ironically is because the competitiveness among the 3rd-10th ranked teams is very high. Compare to the Premier League where the Big Four ruled for four straight seasons (2005-2009) until Spurs broke into it (more thanks to Liverpool imploding than anything else). In that same period La Liga had 7 different teams finish in the CL spots, which doesn't really help with continuity, European experience etc...(also Real Madrid were doomed to fail at the R16 stage).