Anderson

[Ekeke]

You're overrating Cleverley massively Ekeke, but I can't really hold that against you.

Cleverley is nowhere near as good at this point as you are hoping, and that's why the majority of the caf are still absolutely desperate for us to go out and buy a midfielder.

I really dont overrate him. I think you are overrating Anderson and therefore because I think Cleverley has proven himself far better, you think I'm saying Cleverley is great. I'm not. He's not. He's miles behind Wilshire for example. But he's a good player who moves the ball very quickly without giving it away too much. Its great for the tempo of our game and it doesnt hurt that he and Welbeck are always on the same wavelenth.

Anderson is just very average, with the occasional run "into space" just over the half way line, maybe once a match if we're very lucky. And on his day a fine long passer, but his day comes just a few times a season.

 

[I'm always right]

No you said SAF wouldn't have a player who wasn't at optimum fitness. It looked wrong then, with the insight we've had since it definitely is wrong.

You've had three players say he's the laziest, an MUTV reporter said she'd heard that before and he struggles to get through 90 minutes. Yet you think it might just be 'banter.'

I didn't just pass it off as banter, I said he's possibly the shittest trainer because his conditioning is poor, as we see in games. As I said, I'd call the lads at the back of runs on my team the "lazy ones", whereas truth be told, they are probably just the ones with the shittest conditioning.

I'm personally amazed that anyone thinks SAF would accept a player who:

a) lacks effort in training
and
b can't get through 90 minutes in a match

 

[pocco]

What was strange about that?

Considering the entire boards agree that his conditioning isn't up to scratch would you not agree that he probably is at the back of most runs etc in training? and would that in turn not make most players think of him as the lazy trainer?

I know for my footy team that the lads at the back of every single run are the ones I'd call lazy trainers if asked.

You're going to great lengths to defend him with weird hypothetical situations. Why can't it be a case of him just being the worst trainer if that is what the players have said about him? The fact that he still can't complete 90 mins suggests he is lazy and doesn't push himself in training.

 

[I'm always right]

I really dont overrate him. I think you are overrating Anderson and therefore because I think Cleverley has proven himself far better, you think I'm saying Cleverley is great.

Fair enough. Thus far though I think Cleverley has proven himself to be nothing more than average himself.

 

[pocco]

I didn't just pass it off as banter, I said he's possibly the shittest trainer because his conditioning is poor, as we see in games. As I said, I'd call the lads at the back of runs on my team the "lazy ones", whereas truth be told, they are probably just the ones with the shittest conditioning.

I'm personally amazed that anyone thinks SAF would accept a player who:

a) lacks effort in training
and
b can't get through 90 minutes in a match

You talk about his conditioning as if it's somehing that can't be improved the question is why hasnt it improved? The answer is probably that he's a lazy git.

 

[I'm always right]

You're going to great lengths to defend him with weird hypothetical situations. Why can't it be a case of him just being the worst trainer if that is what the players have said about him? The fact that he still can't complete 90 mins suggests he is lazy and doesn't push himself in training.

The fact that I can't see SAF accepting that in a million years. (that the entire basis of my argument to be fair).

I reckon SAF could just about accept a lazy trainer that is excellent for 90 minutes in a match, but not a lazy trainer that can't get through 90 minutes.

 

[I'm always right]

You talk about his conditioning as if it's somehing that can't be improved the question is why hasnt it improved? The answer is probably that he's a lazy git.

See above. Like I said, I can't see SAF accepting a "lazy git" that also can't manage 90 minutes in a match.

 

[MrMojo]

I didn't just pass it off as banter, I said he's possibly the shittest trainer because his conditioning is poor, as we see in games. As I said, I'd call the lads at the back of runs on my team the "lazy ones", whereas truth be told, they are probably just the ones with the shittest conditioning.

I'm personally amazed that anyone thinks SAF would accept a player who:

a) lacks effort in training
and
b can't get through 90 minutes in a match

, that's what the players who train with him have told us, they couldn't have made it any clearer. Your alternative explanations of conditioning and banter are nothing but your own musings.

It amazes me that you refuse to see how option B could be related to option A.

It doesn't matter how much evidence is put before you IAR, you'll never have it that Anderson doesn't train as hard as he should.

 

[shaggy]

SAF's not just going to completely disregard a player because he's lazier than others in training. there are loads of reasons.

 

[pocco]

The fact that I can't see SAF accepting that in a million years. (that the entire basis of my argument to be fair).

I reckon SAF could just about accept a lazy trainer that is excellent for 90 minutes in a match, but not a lazy trainer that can't get through 90 minutes.

Well why can't he complete 90 mins? There's billions of guys throughout the world that don't train everyday but can still get around a football pitch for 90 mins. There's no excuse.

 

[I'm always right]

It amazes me that you refuse to see how option B could be related to option A.

of course I understand that option B could directly relate to option A, I mean, feck me Mojo....

but....

It doesn't matter how much evidence is put before you IAR, you'll never have it that Anderson doesn't train as hard as he should.

Unless I see them training myself or hear SAF say that Anderson lacks effort in training you're right, I won't believe it. Because I'd be fecking disgusted if SAF had a player on his books for 5 years that was:

a) a lazy cnut
b) couldn't last 90 minutes
c) got injured continually


and then I'd be even more fecking disgusted that SAF than gave him a new improved contract.

I simply have too much respect and belief in SAF and his management style to believe that he would allow that to happen.

So what you fail to see him time and time again Mojo, is that I'm defending SAF and the way the club is run much more than I am defending Anderson.

 

[I'm always right]

SAF's not just going to completely disregard a player because he's lazier than others in training

I agree, I mean, Tevez was supposed to be rather lazy in training.

There's a massive difference between Tevez conditioning on a matchday and Anderson's though isn't there? and there's a massive difference between Tevez injury record and Anderson isn't there?

You get my point now?

 

[shaggy]

I agree, I mean, Tevez was supposed to be rather lazy in training.

There's a massive difference between Tevez conditioning on a matchday and Anderson's though isn't there? and there's a massive difference between Tevez injury record and Anderson isn't there?

You get my point now?

No. I'm tired and going to bed.

 

[I'm always right]

Well why can't he complete 90 mins? There's billions of guys throughout the world that don't train everyday but can still get around a football pitch for 90 mins. There's no excuse.

There are not billions of guys that can get around a football pitch like Anderson often does for 70 minutes, that's just fecking nonsense. We can all run a marathon with training, we can't all run a marathon in under 2 hours 10 minutes.

Could Anderson get around a football pitch for 90 minutes playing in my league, and playing how I do? hell yeah. Could he do it in the Prem if he stopped making surging runs everytime he got the ball and conserved his energy more like Carrick? hell yeah.

So why is his conditioning shit? I have no fecking idea, even if he was a "lazy trainer" he still trains 5 days a week and has tough pre-season training, maybe he just has a shit conditioning and plays the game in a way his body will never be able to handle for 1.5 hours.

 

[manutddjw]

Too much is being made out of the poor in training remark Evans made. Gary Neville said in his book that Tevez was awful in training and fond of the massage table and I don't think anyone can accuse Tevez of having a poor work ethic on the pitch during matches, nor is his fitness questioned even though he was fatter than Anderson ever was.

 

[100]

If the fitness issues are true then what the hell is the club doing letting a player get in such a condition for such a long period of time?

 

[I'm always right]

If the fitness issues are true then what the hell is the club doing letting a player get in such a condition for such a long period of time?

Finally at least someone here gets my point.

Especially when you consider his injury record, it really would be bizarre from the club.

 

[izzydiggler]

Too much is being made out of the poor in training remark Evans made. Gary Neville said in his book that Tevez was awful in training and fond of the massage table and I don't think anyone can accuse Tevez of having a poor work ethic on the pitch during matches, nor is his fitness questioned even though he was fatter than Anderson ever was.

Yeah but it's pretty obvious to all that have watched both players that Tevez is a workhorse and Anderson isn't - that's why Tevez gets away with it. Every player is different and should know their body and what they're capable of doing but Anderson can barely finish a game - and these aren't games where he's exerting himself too much - against Newcastle in the CC he was excellent, scored a great goal but after 60 odd minutes, he was finished. And this is not an isolated incident. I dread to think what he'd be like in a mid-table side, having to chase the ball for huge periods.

Something's not right when a young professional athlete cannot compete for a whole game, despite having the best physios and dieticians etc. I don't know whether it's attitude, injury, the club's management of him or whatever but he's simply not match fit often enough. Potentially a superb player but I just can't see him ever turning it round to fulfil his potential. Italian football might suit his talents better.

 

[Ekeke]

I dont think we've sold any player that we bought for big money at the age of 24. That would be my guess as to why we persist with him. If he was a few years older I think he'd be gone, looking to get some money back on what we paid before he isnt worth anything anymore. Of course a few years is plenty of time to mature, get fit and stop getting injured... But there are no guarantees and little encouragement that its all going to happen for him

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Anderson doesnt create them either.

Rubbish

 

[RedRover]

If the fitness issues are true then what the hell is the club doing letting a player get in such a condition for such a long period of time?

The point is, for all the club can give a player diet plans and training schedules and work one to one with him, they can't do it for him. He's an adult, and if he's not giving it his all, and not looking after what he eats it will show.

The PL is such a high standard that find margins are the difference. Some players, like people in general, will have a higher natural level of fitness and can probably out train a bad diet but they are the minority.

Bottom line is some players need to work harder, diet harder and train harder than others. Here is a young lad who should be approaching his peak, access to the best medical and fitness but looks overweight, plays sporadically and is blowing out of his hoop after 60 minutes.

Say what you like, but I don't think it's unfair for people to think that he's not grafting as hard as he should be.

 

[MrMojo]

I simply have too much respect and belief in SAF and his management style to believe that he would allow that to happen.

So what you fail to see him time and time again Mojo, is that I'm defending SAF and the way the club is run much more than I am defending Anderson.

I understand what you think you're doing. Despite whatever evidence is put forward you believe Anderson must be giving his all because the manager wouldn't have it any other way. I get it, but like I've said before, that's fundamentally illogical.

However you're also inadvertentently doing the manager a disservice. You're making a caricature out of his management style i.e. it's his way or the highway. That if you're not giving your all you're out the door. The reality is that he's much more subtle, much more pragmatic, he'll be taking into account all the factors others have pointed out to you. He doesn't sell players quickly or easily, he gives them chances.

So ignoring the blatant evidence regarding Anderson and pinning your belief on some assumed understanding of the managers thinking is all kinds of wrong basically.

 

[pocco]

There are not billions of guys that can get around a football pitch like Anderson often does for 70 minutes, that's just fecking nonsense. We can all run a marathon with training, we can't all run a marathon in under 2 hours 10 minutes.

Could Anderson get around a football pitch for 90 minutes playing in my league, and playing how I do? hell yeah. Could he do it in the Prem if he stopped making surging runs everytime he got the ball and conserved his energy more like Carrick? hell yeah.

So why is his conditioning shit? I have no fecking idea, even if he was a "lazy trainer" he still trains 5 days a week and has tough pre-season training, maybe he just has a shit conditioning and plays the game in a way his body will never be able to handle for 1.5 hours.

Well, I don't think it's unfair to assume that he's not training hard enough. I've not known many Manchester United players struggle as much as Anderson, if any.

I don't think Anderson even has a high output either, yes he makes a run every now and then, but on the other hand he can be seen walking around quite a lot during a game. Whatever the reason is for him not being able to complete 90 mins, there is no excuse as to why it is still the case after all these years playing football and the half a decade he's spent here.

 

[Adebesi]

Im with IAR on this. I cant see SAF showing patience with someone who is as lazy as is being implied here. Maybe for a bit, maybe for a season or two, tops, on the basis he is coming to a new league, adjusting to a new lifestyle, we have to give him a chance etc. But five years? Five years of not training properly out of sheer laziness, and then consequently being unable to perform up to the required standard in games? That sounds extremely unlikely to me.

Not just that, this lazy feck who cant finish games was here for two seasons and rather than showing exasperation at his lack of progress in adjusting to the team ethic - the one that SAF is renowned for - the manager gave him a new 5 year contract?

To me it seems far more likely there is something else to it that we are missing. After all, it would be incredibly naive to assume we knew all the ins and outs of the health and training regimes and individual players.

 

[golden_blunder]

Anderson wouldnt still be here if he was lazy. Surely we all know our managers work ethics by now, to make that conclusion?

He doesnt get game time because he's not consistently fit due to injuries and when he does get game time he sometimes plays like a headless chicken. He was young enough to be given the benefit of the doubt previously but he's now reaching the age where a tough decision needs to be made

 

[pocco]

We've not really been in a position to lose Anderson though over the last few years. Scholes retirement, Giggs age, Fletchers illness etc. Had the rest of our midfield been more reliable then maybe he would have been shown the door already.

 

[Rossa]

Would this discussion have as vivid if Anderson was not substituted in the 85th (!!!!!) minute and instead been kept on for 90? He didn't look knackered to me, so maybe it was precautionary -to avoid further injuries?

 

[100]

The point is, for all the club can give a player diet plans and training schedules and work one to one with him, they can't do it for him. He's an adult, and if he's not giving it his all, and not looking after what he eats it will show.

The PL is such a high standard that find margins are the difference. Some players, like people in general, will have a higher natural level of fitness and can probably out train a bad diet but they are the minority.

Bottom line is some players need to work harder, diet harder and train harder than others. Here is a young lad who should be approaching his peak, access to the best medical and fitness but looks overweight, plays sporadically and is blowing out of his hoop after 60 minutes.

Say what you like, but I don't think it's unfair for people to think that he's not grafting as hard as he should be.

I agree with the not working hard enough part, as I said he goes off abroad during international breaks and that for me shows his lack of desire or interest in really putting his foot down here; it's this idea that the club and probably very advanced medical team is completely oblivious to people with fitness issues and decide to continuously give some fat lad a run out despite him apparently having the fitness of a sunday league player. It's ridiculous.

 

[Red Pavan]

If by locker you mean buried so deep like Davy jones locker

 

[RedRover]

Anderson wouldnt still be here if he was lazy. Surely we all know our managers work ethics by now, to make that conclusion?He doesnt get game time because he's not consistently fit due to injuries and when he does get game time he sometimes plays like a headless chicken. He was young enough to be given the benefit of the doubt previously but he's now reaching the age where a tough decision needs to be made

I dont agree with that at all. They paid a lot of money for him, and he has shown, in flickers what he might be capable of. Clearly they're not going to bomb him out after a season or so because they'll think they can work with him, and also probably assume that as he gets older he'll mature, settle down and start working a bit harder.

But there surely comes a time when it becomes clear to all involved that a player who isnt putting it in, isn't going to change. Perhaps he has reached that point.

As has been said, its all speculation, but I dont think you can put it all down to injuries. He has repeated niggles rather than varying severe injuries - often a symptom of not being fully fit than the actual cause. Put simply if you're a little overweight, not quite as supple as you should be you're more likely to get injured when playing high level pro-football.

It is a bit chicken and egg - but I can see why fans get pissed off when a player who is well paid, has access to the best facilities can't get through 90 minutes.

 

[kouroux]

Anderson was signed a long time ago RedRover.Surely the big fee paid for him holds no more importance now if SAF decided to get rid of him.

 

[MrMojo]

Anderson was signed a long time ago RedRover.Surely the big fee paid for him holds no more importance now if SAF decided to get rid of him.

Well that's his point, we've now possibly reached that crossroads. Two years left on his contract I'm told, would anyone give him another three?

 

[RedRover]

I agree with the not working hard enough part, as I said he goes off abroad during international breaks and that for me shows his lack of desire or interest in really putting his foot down here; it's this idea that the club and probably very advanced medical team is completely oblivious to people with fitness issues and decide to continuously give some fat lad a run out despite him apparently having the fitness of a sunday league player. It's ridiculous.

Where has that been suggested?

Clearly he is "fit" in general terms. He wouldnt get a kick at all otherwise. But its all about levels and he clearly isnt fit enough as it stands.

Ryan Giggs is a great example - same playing weight as he was over 20 years ago, still has the legs to get through a game, albeit not every week.

Clearly he is a naturally fit and athletic person - but there is no doubt he makes a lot of sacrifices to maintain his fitness. He'll have changed his training and will certainly watch what he eats.

Here is a young lad who maybe hasnt had to put the graft in before, because his talent and youth have got him through. It's now patently obvious it wont get him through a game, and has been for some time. If I were him I'd be doing everything I could to get as fit as I could be.

Fact is, there is a clear problem for a Brazilian international in his mid 20's who cant get through 90 minutes. Be it injury or fitness - its largely irrelevant, it still makes him half the player he might have been.

What I dont get is people going head over heels into all sorts of weird and wonderful explanations and excuses. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'll assume its a duck. When someone is overweight and unfit it generally means he's not working hard enough.

 

[shaggy]

I understand what you think you're doing. Despite whatever evidence is put forward you believe Anderson must be giving his all because the manager wouldn't have it any other way. I get it, but like I've said before, that's fundamentally illogical.

However you're also inadvertentently doing the manager a disservice. You're making a caricature out of his management style i.e. it's his way or the highway. That if you're not giving your all you're out the door. The reality is that he's much more subtle, much more pragmatic, he'll be taking into account all the factors others have pointed out to you. He doesn't sell players quickly or easily, he gives them chances.

So ignoring the blatant evidence regarding Anderson and pinning your belief on some assumed understanding of the managers thinking is all kinds of wrong basically.

Good post, agreed.

Didn't realise he only had 2 years left. Fergie's definitely got a decision to make this summer over him. He's arguably playing for his career here for the remainder of the season.

 

[golden_blunder]

I dont agree with that at all. They paid a lot of money for him, and he has shown, in flickers what he might be capable of. Clearly they're not going to bomb him out after a season or so because they'll think they can work with him, and also probably assume that as he gets older he'll mature, settle down and start working a bit harder.

But there surely comes a time when it becomes clear to all involved that a player who isnt putting it in, isn't going to change. Perhaps he has reached that point.

As has been said, its all speculation, but I dont think you can put it all down to injuries. He has repeated niggles rather than varying severe injuries - often a symptom of not being fully fit than the actual cause. Put simply if you're a little overweight, not quite as supple as you should be you're more likely to get injured when playing high level pro-football.

It is a bit chicken and egg - but I can see why fans get pissed off when a player who is well paid, has access to the best facilities can't get through 90 minutes.

so, you're arguing that Fergie would keep him on, even if Anderson wasnt pulling his weight in training etc, simply because he paid a big fee?

havent you watched Ferguson for the last 20 years? If someone doesnt pull their weight, or have "no hunger" then they are bombed out, regardless of who they are.

 

[Comsmit]

Where has that been suggested?

Clearly he is "fit" in general terms. He wouldnt get a kick at all otherwise. But its all about levels and he clearly isnt fit enough as it stands.

Ryan Giggs is a great example - same playing weight as he was over 20 years ago, still has the legs to get through a game, albeit not every week.

Clearly he is a naturally fit and athletic person - but there is no doubt he makes a lot of sacrifices to maintain his fitness. He'll have changed his training and will certainly watch what he eats.

Here is a young lad who maybe hasnt had to put the graft in before, because his talent and youth have got him through. It's now patently obvious it wont get him through a game, and has been for some time. If I were him I'd be doing everything I could to get as fit as I could be.

Fact is, there is a clear problem for a Brazilian international in his mid 20's who cant get through 90 minutes. Be it injury or fitness - its largely irrelevant, it still makes him half the player he might have been.

What I dont get is people going head over heels into all sorts of weird and wonderful explanations and excuses. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'll assume its a duck. When someone is overweight and unfit it generally means he's not working hard enough.

Giggs is also an incredibly intelligent and savvy footballer....one who knows exactly what to do on the pitch, be it check his movement or conserve energy. A lot of that comes with experience but you have to be adaptable.

Anderson appears to lack this self-discipline, and to a degree, the intelligence also. He has natural skills but that alone does not always make you successful.

He is perhaps the most frustrating player in United's squad. Talented, but very little self-discipline. I mean look at his game, his attributes....they have barely improved since he signed in 2007. Not good enough, injury record or not.

 

[MrMojo]

so, you're arguing that Fergie would keep him on, even if Anderson wasnt pulling his weight in training etc, simply because he paid a big fee?

havent you watched Ferguson for the last 20 years? If someone doesnt pull their weight, or have "no hunger" then they are bombed out, regardless of who they are.

For a period of time yeah. This period of time as been extended by injuries but absolutely, if you pay 18 million(or whatever it was) for a young player you give them a good few years to prove themselves. It's crazy that some think SAF has this old fashioned black and white approach to management. He's actually the ultimate pragmatist.

The players he trains with have told you he's the laziest trainer. Given his situation he shouldn't be anywhere near their thoughts when the question was put to them.

 

[golden_blunder]

im talking the last year or 2

 

[golden_blunder]

The players he trains with have told you he's the laziest trainer. Given his situation he shouldn't be anywhere near their thoughts when the question was put to them.

You understand that someone always has to be at the bottom for a loaded question like that?

 

[MrMojo]

You understand that someone always has to be at the bottom for a loaded question like that?

It doesn't change the fact they answered Anderson though does it. Or that Mandy Henry said she'd heard that before. Or that it correlates with what a lot of people already believed based on his performances. As I said, of all the players it could have been, it absolutely shouldn't have been him, his existence at this club must be the most precarious.