He tried to score and, as a result, we scored. I think it deserves an assist.
Shinji Kagawa
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He tried to score and, as a result, we scored. I think it deserves an assist.
He reminds me of Jesus - only not a charlatan 
So if a player goes past a few defenders, goes round the keeper and then his shot hits the post, he doesn't deserve credit when his team mate taps it in?
Same reason why kie criticised de Gea all the time.
Does it really matter whether or not that would technically be considered an assist?
It was a brilliant bit of play regardless.
It was a brilliant bit of play regardless.
Because that's how it always is in football. If the keeper kicks the ball against a striker and it goes in the net, who scored the goal?
It is in assist, and will be recorded as one officially. Anyway, it doesn't really matter whether you think it should be or not, it was very good play that led to a goal.
His composure in and around the penatly box is probably better than it is at any other part of the pitch. It wasn't his best game IMO, but he was still better than our any other player apart from Vidic.
Created both goals, that dummy for first one was excellent.
You know how good he is when he makes makes Valencia score.
Created both goals, that dummy for first one was excellent.
You know how good he is when he makes makes Valencia score.
I have been saying this for ages!!! It is how you get the best out of him.
I don't think you've had that lie down yet. I support Manchester United, give me one reason I would be unhappy that a Utd player has done well.
It's weird that some people are saying that we should completely change our system to get the best out of him. I don't think he has deserved that kind of status on the basis of his performances, yet.
I like him and I think he's a very good player but he needs to impose himself more in the matches to get that status.
I like him and I think he's a very good player but he needs to impose himself more in the matches to get that status.
If a player hits a shot and it is blocked or saved and somebody puts the rebound in is it an assist as well? If so it just shows how misleading stats can be.
I hit the post in my pickup game on Tuesday. The spacker who got the rebound skyed it wide.
He will.
Of course it counts as an assist!
Robbed of an assist.
So I can understand him not getting many games in CAM as we don't use the position a hell of a let strictly speaking, however yday if you look at a post in the 'reaction to WH draw' thread, someone posted the sky Sports tracker of our average formation based on where people play and it had the back 4 relatively straight with Rafael pushed up and Carrick protecting them with the wingers and VP in the normal positions. No problems.
THen you have Rooney who basically glued himself to the CM Position... Ok, strange for him to be on AVERAGE that deep, but MEH, then you see Phil Jones playing as close to Persie on average as you could.
If you were Kagawa, surely that you'd have to ask why?
THen you have Rooney who basically glued himself to the CM Position... Ok, strange for him to be on AVERAGE that deep, but MEH, then you see Phil Jones playing as close to Persie on average as you could.
If you were Kagawa, surely that you'd have to ask why?
Yes.
I dont think it requires a complete change of the system. The way I see it, we're just not making use of his abilities. One of the main abilities is finding teammates who make runs off of where he's positioned. Could he certainly do more than what he's shown? Yes. However you need to understand Kagawa is a team player. It's one of the main distinctions between him and Hazard.
Obviously Kagawa will fancy himself for a shot but he likes to setup his teammates and the way we are playing, we are not making good use of that. It's merely more of an awareness issue IMO and our insistence to get the ball wide.
It goes both ways but currently Carrick, Rvp and Rooney seem to be the only players who trust Kagawa with the ball. That's part of my point.
Did that even make sense to you when you wrote it?
We're not making use of his abilities. Ok. He likes to pick out players who make runs. How very unusual of him. He's a team player. Right. He's not Eden Hazard. Gotcha.
Wait? What?
That's been a recurring theme in this thread. The idea that we have nobody else in the team capable of making a run worthy of the Japanese genius passing them the ball. I mean, what the actual feck? I can think of a lot of midfielders who would give their left bollock to be able to play behind strikers whose movement is as good as the likes of Rooney, Van Persie and Hernandez.
Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the runs are being made and Kagawa needs to learn how to spot them a bit quicker? And perhaps this will happen without any change to our style or system but by him simply spending a bit more time playing with his new team-mates?
I'm quite confident Kagawa is following a path similar to Silva/Mata's career in England. After a relatively quiet first season getting to grips with the physicality and pace of a new league and new teammates, i'm hoping he'll really come into life in his second season. At this stage he's not up to speed enough for to be the teams main creative hub, but he should become more and more influential the longer he's here.
He is certainly dealing with the physical side of the league a lot lot better, the last 2 games are arguably the "toughest" teams to play against, and he was battling away and getting stuck in, rarely ever bullied off the ball like he did once or twice at the beginning.
We certainly don't need any change of tactics to fit Kagawa in to our team as far as players making runs or anything like that goes. He's naturally a central player so he's obviously going to work better behind a striker with wingers on each side. He's very quick with his passing and I think he'd thrive with Welbeck and Nani to either side of him with Cleverley in midfield. He can worth with any of our players though, it's not going to take some big complicated tactical change for us to utilize him.
He has started looking better on the left though, which is encouraging because you have to think while we have both Rooney and RvP he isn't going to get to many games centrally.
He has started looking better on the left though, which is encouraging because you have to think while we have both Rooney and RvP he isn't going to get to many games centrally.
I see some people are saying we need to change our system to fit around him and others are saying he needs to change to fit into our system. The truth is somewhere in between.
He is a specialist attacking midfielder, something nobody else in our current squad is. He has attributes that if utilised properly can be match-winning at any level. To get the best out of these qualities we need to play him in a role where he is most effective, but at the same time a role where he can get used to the movement of others around him.
In short we need to play him behind the forward consistently. He played in this role for 5 minutes last night and in that time created a goal with a fantastic piece of play which it didn't look like anyone else in our team had the composure to be capable of at the time.
Wether its Rooney or RVP ahead of him doesn't really matter. I actually think playing Rooney further forward is exactly what Rooney needs right now to just focus on his play in the attacking third and has the potential to build up an excellent understanding with Kagawa.
Earlier in the season he wasnt playing well enough to get in the side ahead of Rooney or RVP, but recently he's shown signs hes adapted to English and also that he can bring qualities to the team in that role that no-one else can.
As much as Kagawa needs to get used to his teamates more, they need to get used to him and his clever movement between the lines. Too often by the time they spot him the pass opportunity has gone and the space has been closed down. The only player who has formed an understanding with him so far is Carrick (again, see our 2nd goal last night) and the interplay between these two has become a joy to watch. If others can pick up on this then i'm convinced Kagawa has the ability to take our attacking play to a new level.
He is a specialist attacking midfielder, something nobody else in our current squad is. He has attributes that if utilised properly can be match-winning at any level. To get the best out of these qualities we need to play him in a role where he is most effective, but at the same time a role where he can get used to the movement of others around him.
In short we need to play him behind the forward consistently. He played in this role for 5 minutes last night and in that time created a goal with a fantastic piece of play which it didn't look like anyone else in our team had the composure to be capable of at the time.
Wether its Rooney or RVP ahead of him doesn't really matter. I actually think playing Rooney further forward is exactly what Rooney needs right now to just focus on his play in the attacking third and has the potential to build up an excellent understanding with Kagawa.
Earlier in the season he wasnt playing well enough to get in the side ahead of Rooney or RVP, but recently he's shown signs hes adapted to English and also that he can bring qualities to the team in that role that no-one else can.
As much as Kagawa needs to get used to his teamates more, they need to get used to him and his clever movement between the lines. Too often by the time they spot him the pass opportunity has gone and the space has been closed down. The only player who has formed an understanding with him so far is Carrick (again, see our 2nd goal last night) and the interplay between these two has become a joy to watch. If others can pick up on this then i'm convinced Kagawa has the ability to take our attacking play to a new level.
I think the main problem is that Kagawa has played out of position 60-70% of the time. He's never got a nice run of games in his favored position, which again makes it hard for him to settle down the way he needs to. It therefore makes little sense to criticise Kagawa, seeing as he's never played on the wing on top level, apart from the odd Japan friendly. It's kind of like playing RVP on the wing and criticise him for not scoring many goals anymore.
It's obviously bollocks that Kagawa is Jesus incarnate and that everyone just fails to live up to his awesomeness. It takes two to tango, and football is a team sport. But in all fairness, we're talking about a player who not only plays out of position, but also in a new league. To make matters worse, he's actually got less play time than Giggs, Valencia, Young and Welbeck. Nevertheless, he beats all of these players in almost any meaningful statistic there is. Passing accuracy, succesful throughballs, goals/assist ratio... And that's not even including his "flashy moments" that many people in this thread have high-lighted.
You make a lot of fair points. The only thing I would say is that he's actually better when playing "out of position" than he has when he's been played more centrally.
Although the latter games were mainly earlier in the season, which muddies the water a bit.
This. You can add Modric too.
Another player who cut his teeth playing on the left of midfield, before earning the right to play more centrally.
That's retarded.
No offence but you seem to have made about 800 posts about Kagawa in the past month. Its a bit over-dramatic all this fear mongering that we're somehow wasting Kagawa and wont see the best of him etc.
As you said, he's doing well so far in a new league, in a season hampered by injury. To expect the team to have changed around him this season is nonsensical. However hes adapting well and we'll see more of him next year.
I disagree. Kagawa's best half so far was the second half against Norwich, where he predominantly played behind the striker. We could also see yesterday that he got a lot better in the few minutes he played behind RVP.
But even if the things you say are true, the point still stands: Kagawa hasn't been given enough time in his favored position to be able to shine. I'd say he's played roughly 300-400 minutes in his favored position so far, most of which came in the beginning of the season when he still was completely fresh to the PL(as you mentioned). Give Kagawa those minutes now, and we're likely to see a much better player.
Kagawa's decent(good imo) stats despite being a winger is for me an even stronger argument for playing him behind the striker. If he can play that well out of position, then we can expect much better results in AM.
People are getting so hung up on this 'why would we change our whole system just for Shinji' stuff. The point is not 'oh, Kagawa is so good that we must get the best out of him', but in my view, getting the best out of Kagawa also allows us to get the best out of our other good players. I mean, what is so special about running down the wing and crossing the ball in repeatedly, and more importantly, why would Wayne Rooney and Robin van Persie prefer ariel challenges to receiving the ball on the ground?
Our attacking players, and indeed our midfield players, are good enough to play the ball on the ground, but due to Kagawa's specialist skill-set, he is the catalyst that can allow it all to knit together in the final third.
Basically, having Shinji at his best will likely see a better level of performance and output from Rooney, Cleverley, Nani, Welbeck and Persie. This doesn't make him the best of the lot necessarily, but allows the rest to play better. What we have instead had over the past couple of years is Antonio Valencia occupying this role in the team, where our attacks are routed through him. Yes, there was a spell where his crosses allowed Rooney to score quite a few headers, but he doesn't have the skill level to bring his surrounding players into the game in the same way, which as a result will likely make the team less cohesive than it would be with Kagawa being the fulcrum of the attack. We can even play Kagawa and still deploy a more traditional winger in the side which would allow us to vary our approach. What I do know is that the default 'pas the ball out to Valencia' route is not good enough, largely because it over- relies upon the individual brilliance of a player who isn't that individually brilliant.
Our attacking players, and indeed our midfield players, are good enough to play the ball on the ground, but due to Kagawa's specialist skill-set, he is the catalyst that can allow it all to knit together in the final third.
Basically, having Shinji at his best will likely see a better level of performance and output from Rooney, Cleverley, Nani, Welbeck and Persie. This doesn't make him the best of the lot necessarily, but allows the rest to play better. What we have instead had over the past couple of years is Antonio Valencia occupying this role in the team, where our attacks are routed through him. Yes, there was a spell where his crosses allowed Rooney to score quite a few headers, but he doesn't have the skill level to bring his surrounding players into the game in the same way, which as a result will likely make the team less cohesive than it would be with Kagawa being the fulcrum of the attack. We can even play Kagawa and still deploy a more traditional winger in the side which would allow us to vary our approach. What I do know is that the default 'pas the ball out to Valencia' route is not good enough, largely because it over- relies upon the individual brilliance of a player who isn't that individually brilliant.
I think I'll trust Alex Fergusons opinion on how to get the best out of his players. He's been doing it for a while now.
He mismanaged a few players who didn't develop as well as they should have and didn't reach their potential at United mind. He isn't immune to mistakes when it comes to picking the right team and choosing correct position for players.
And it has rarely been Utd who suffer.
Yeah but you can't say he's managed to get the best out of everyone. Veron, Forlan and Anderson are prime examples although with Anderson I feel it's more of a case of laziness and lack of effort because frankly you cannot trust a player whose fitness isn't sufficient to complete 90 minutes of football after a two-week long rest.
Every one of those players will have regrets about the part they played themselves in not being more of a success at United. As far as Veron is concerned, he also flopped at Chelsea. Was that Fergie's fault?
3 players out of how many? His mistake was trying to squeeze Veron into a team that already had a player who dictated the play. What could he have done with Forlan? He was a player who wasn't ready to play at that level. As you've said yourself Anderson is more to blame than anyone.
Fergie probably already knows that Kagawa is much better off in AM. The reason he doesn't let him play there regularly is pretty obvious:
1. We have Rooney and RVP. That seriously complicates things.
2. We're more of a 4-4-2 side than a 4-2-3-1 side. Since it has worked out for us so far, maybe he feels that there's no reason to change that.
3. Kagawa just turned 24, which means that he still has many years to get better. He's not a flair player who relies on speed and physique, which means that he can play well for a lot longer than many other players. For all we know, Kagawa might still be 5-6 years away from his prime.
In short, both sides are in the wrong here. Fergie is not making the wrong decision, but he's still preventing Kagawa from reaching top level. Fergie's call is that at the moment, it is not worth sacrificing Rooney(or RVP) to accomodate a fresh 24 year old. We just have to respect that decision, even if it's frustrating to not see Kagawa at his very best. But who are we to judge? Kagawa has been our best winger by far this season. Not that it says a lot, seeing as the rest have been crap(except for Welbeck), but it still holds a decent argument for keeping Kagawa out left. He's best choice right now.
Can't really quote anything specific, just commenting on the general tone of the last few pages. When someone says change tactics, it doesn't mean "play more like dortmund" or any other team.
How many threads have popped up now bemoaning everything from; how we are playing to lack of movement, fluidity, strange formations and where people are playing.
From what i am reading, it's not so much what Kagawa alone is capable of, but how we should be playing, given our players are capable of carrying it out.
I'm talking about basic things. You can't expect him to play a through ball when there is only one target to hit. If the wingers tuck in 5-10 yards, they are in a position to play a one two, or simply make a run in behind. There is no option if the winger is waiting near the touchline. Lack of movement - static football - slow tempo etc.
It will stem from prolonged spells of pressure, pushing the opposition back. Knock the ball around waiting for gaps to appear. Being a bit more narrow helps, allowing quick, incisive passing and darting runs.
I don't even know how to explain it, it's basic football as i understand it. Turn on any game and you see it. I really don't mind how we play, i can find entertainment from watching other teams, and changing some things will still make us vulnerable in other areas.
How many threads have popped up now bemoaning everything from; how we are playing to lack of movement, fluidity, strange formations and where people are playing.
From what i am reading, it's not so much what Kagawa alone is capable of, but how we should be playing, given our players are capable of carrying it out.
I'm talking about basic things. You can't expect him to play a through ball when there is only one target to hit. If the wingers tuck in 5-10 yards, they are in a position to play a one two, or simply make a run in behind. There is no option if the winger is waiting near the touchline. Lack of movement - static football - slow tempo etc.
It will stem from prolonged spells of pressure, pushing the opposition back. Knock the ball around waiting for gaps to appear. Being a bit more narrow helps, allowing quick, incisive passing and darting runs.
I don't even know how to explain it, it's basic football as i understand it. Turn on any game and you see it. I really don't mind how we play, i can find entertainment from watching other teams, and changing some things will still make us vulnerable in other areas.
I think there is no need for him to play centrally or behind RVP to get the best out of him or something close to it.It's not an obligation because I see him as a very clever player and having no pb starting on the left wing but drifting inside at will. All we need from him is to be settled in, to learn the language and to become a proper United player, once that happens his performances will be consistently better wherever he'll play
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