Shinji Kagawa

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Fergie on subbing Shinji off:

SAF had already instructed the sub for Chicha to replace Kagawa when Shinji made the 2nd goal. 'If I'd changed my decision we'd have won'
 
fergieisold said:
Getting a shot off in a tight area that hits the post creates a dangerous situation. It is an assist and I think these kind of things always have been?
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It shows why statistics can not be relied upon in an argument. A deflected shot off the post shouldn't be an assist regardless of how well he managed to get the shot off in a crowded space.
 
The United manager told his Friday press conference: “There was a simple reason why I took Rooney off the other night: he wasn’t playing as well as Shinji was.

“In so many games Wayne is better than most players but on the night Shinji was playing so well.

“The ironic thing was, when we were chasing a goal with 14 minutes left, I decided to put Chicharito on and Shinji made the second goal. He made two goals.

“I’d already given the fourth official the card, Chicha was standing on the touchline and then we scored the second goal. I think if I’d have changed my decision then we would have won it.

“Shinji was doing really well but unfortunately he came off. Chicha came on simply because you always think he’ll get a chance in the game.

At that point we wanted to win it and you make decisions like that that maybe are not fair.”
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Fergie in today's press conference.
 
He might be right that Chicharito can get chances, but for that, he first and foremost needs a working midfield! How he couldnt see that and that Jones wasnt working at all, we will never know
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Oh Fergie. Sometimes you don't make much sense at all.

The burning question here, is why the hell did Phil Jones play 90 minutes?
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And why was he playing as an attacking midfielder, right behind Van Persie?

I can hardly imagine a position he's less suited to.
 
acnumber9 said:
It shows why statistics can not be relied upon in an argument. A deflected shot off the post shouldn't be an assist regardless of how well he managed to get the shot off in a crowded space.
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How can you say that. By the very definition of assist, it is to give help or support to. So therefore, by hitting the post, Kagawa did in fact help or support RVP in scoring the goal. Therefore, it is an assist. Would you be arguing about this so much if Rooney had shot at goal? Methinks not.
 
acnumber9 said:
It shows why statistics can not be relied upon in an argument. A deflected shot off the post shouldn't be an assist regardless of how well he managed to get the shot off in a crowded space.
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Of course statistics can be relied upon! I don't think there's a load of players out there seeing there stats massively inflated by assists from shots off the woodwork.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense to me, you're claiming that Kagawa had nothing to do with creating the goal RVP scored...
 
fergieisold said:
Of course statistics can be relied upon! I don't think there's a load of players out there seeing there stats massively inflated by assists from shots off the woodwork.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense to me, you're claiming that Kagawa had nothing to do with creating the goal RVP scored...
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According to these people saved shots and defleced shots count too. If one player has a shot saved and his teammate scores the rebound has he done better than another player doing the same and the rebound being missed? I recall last season people whining Ashley Young's stats were misleading because he got credited with assist for stopping the ball for a couple of free kicks for Wayne Rooney last season.

Yeah, he had something to do with Van Persie scoring a goal. Just like Michael Carrick did. Just like the deflection of James Collins foot did. The only world were assists actually matter though is in fantasy football.
 
Scots Crusader said:
How can you say that. By the very definition of assist, it is to give help or support to. So therefore, by hitting the post, Kagawa did in fact help or support RVP in scoring the goal. Therefore, it is an assist. Would you be arguing about this so much if Rooney had shot at goal? Methinks not.
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You thinks wrong.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Oh Fergie. Sometimes you don't make much sense at all.

The burning question here, is why the hell did Phil Jones play 90 minutes?
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I know it's stupid to say this sort of thing about a game, but I'm going to do it anyway: if Cleverley had started instead of Jones, we would have won.
 
Jones as not actually playing as an attacking midfielder, he was playing in a 2 man with carrick.

But the fact is because west ham were pressed back deep and carrick was playing like a deep lying playmaker, jones was getting carried away and just getting into the box or pulling wide onto the right wing.

Alot of the time because there was not much space in the box Rooney ended up coming deeper, making it seem like Jones was actually playing in Rooneys position.

At the end of the day Jones meant well but his tactical nouse didnt really fit, fergie should have subbed off Jones in the first place, then moved Giggs or Kagawa to the CM position.

West Ham were rocking at that point, but by taking off potentially our 2 most creative players we lacked any cutting edge apart from Giggs / Carrick.
 
Sometime we play Jones 'behind the striker' in order to press high, not for his creativity or anything. For instance, if we wanted a job done on Pirlo, he'd hardly be sitting deep to mark him.
 
Rozay said:
Sometime we play Jones 'behind the striker' in order to press high, not for his creativity or anything. For instance, if we wanted a job done on Pirlo, he'd hardly be sitting deep to mark him.
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Certainly, but there was no Pirlo on the pitch in the match the other night. Using a player in that fashion to mark a deep-lying pinpoint passer like Pirlo (or Alonso) makes some sense. But who was Jones marking at Upton Park? Winston Reid? The only thing which remotely makes sense is that Fergie was afraid West Ham's defenders might hoof too many balls up to Carroll - but if that's the case it borders on the ludicrous, given the quality of the players in question. In terms of passing they are to Pirlo what Barry Manilow is to Beethoven.
 
acnumber9 said:
It shows why statistics can not be relied upon in an argument. A deflected shot off the post shouldn't be an assist regardless of how well he managed to get the shot off in a crowded space.
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I understand your point but I'm going to disagree.

An assist, strictly speaking, is a pass that immediately results in a goal. For example, a David Beckham cross that leads to a Ruud van Nistelrooy header for the goal. We all understand that.

But if a player takes a shot on goal and the ball is either parried by the keeper or hits the woodwork and is immediately pounced on for the score those plays SHOULD be counted as assists. Whether they actually are or are not I have no idea, though it appears you believe they are counted as assists.

So, why should Kagawa's shot off the post which led to van Persie's goal be recorded as an assist? Easy. But for Kagawa's shot, van Persie would never have scored the goal. Kagawa obviously did not intend to bank the shot off the post to set up RvP for the score, but in the end that's exactly what happened. An assist should not be restricted to only what the "assisting player" intended; it should reflect the effect of his effort. If we restrict an "assist" to what was "intended" by the player we could open up new questions regarding whether the pass was "intended" to result in a strike on goal or not. Many passes are speculative -- Player A may have no idea what Player B is going to do with the ball.

Too bad I can't draw diagrams here but let me see how words will do: Player A passes the ball to Player B, with the full intent that Player B would make a play on the ball. But Player B dummies the bull, allowing to roll through to Player C, whom Player A (for purposes of this example) has no idea was coming through. The ball having rolled through Player B, Player C scores.

Should Player A get the assist, even though he did not intend to play the ball to Player C? I say yes.
 
I totally understand acnumber's point as there's no intention from Kagawa to assist Van Persie.

Still though, dems da rulZ.
 
Good video, but a bit unnecessarily Rooney-bashing. It shouldn't be a case of Rooney or Kagawa. The win against Norwich showed that they are perfectly capable of playing well in the same line-up. Finding a way for them to do so week in week out will be key for out future as an attacking side.

Hell, Barca have a whole team full of number 10s, I'm sure we can squeeze two into ours.
 
Brightonian said:
Good video, but a bit unnecessarily Rooney-bashing. It shouldn't be a case of Rooney or Kagawa. The win against Norwich showed that they are perfectly capable of playing well in the same line-up. Finding a way for them to do so week in week out will be key for out future as an attacking side.

Hell, Barca have a whole team full of number 10s, I'm sure we can squeeze two into ours.
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Agreed.
I can only see the three (RvP, Rooney and Kagawa) fitting in a diamond properly together with Kagawa at the tip and Rooney and Robin up top. They could interchange and they'd all be starting in arguably their 'best' positions really. Can't see us playing that formation regularly though because wingers are ingrained in the fabric of Manchester United.

Kagawa and Rooney only started playing well against Norwich in that last half an hour after RvP went off so we know they have good link-up, but all three were involved in the first goal against West Ham so it can work all together I suppose.

RvP has played every single league game this season & some CL and cups here and there and understandably looked jaded around feb/march (he still looks laboured at times now tbh). He shouldn't be exempt from rotation, it'll benefit him and give others who deserve it (Hernandez) game time. Hernandez, Rooney and Kagawa can all play together too whilst still maintaining a pretty good goal threat.

Carrick and Evra are pretty much exempt from rotation because Büttner is still a bit raw, and there is no cover for Carrick but there is no excuse with RvP because were well stocked up top and we did alright last season...
 
LR7 said:
Agreed.
I can only see the three (RvP, Rooney and Kagawa) fitting in a diamond properly together with Kagawa at the tip and Rooney and Robin up top. They could interchange and they'd all be starting in arguably their 'best' positions really. Can't see us playing that formation regularly though because wingers are ingrained in the fabric of Manchester United.
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You're absolutely right, LR7, but Fergie may give this some thought over the summer. Our wingers didn't light up the league this season and unless we bring in Ronaldo or Bale there's no reason to think our wingers will light up the league next season either.

I'd love to see this RvP, Roo and Kag diamond tried out more often.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
They don't. The two guys who used to play as "number 10s" previously, Sanchez and Fabregas, have struggled to make a major impact for them.

Messi's the closest thing they have and he leads the line for them.
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Iniesta plays as a number 10 for Spain. It's his most natural position. Sanchez has never been one, not sure where you've got that from, but Fabregas is indeed another. So that's three for starters: Messi, Iniesta and Fabregas.
 
LR7 said:
Agreed.
I can only see the three (RvP, Rooney and Kagawa) fitting in a diamond properly together with Kagawa at the tip and Rooney and Robin up top. They could interchange and they'd all be starting in arguably their 'best' positions really. Can't see us playing that formation regularly though because wingers are ingrained in the fabric of Manchester United.
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I think you can make it work as long as you accept that formations don't always have to reflect exactly what happens on the pitch. You play RVP up top (or, as you say, rotate Hernandez in sometimes), Kagawa behind him at number 10, a proper winger on the right, and Rooney on the left. However, Rooney is actually in a free role - he can drop deep and central and play as a CM, push into the middle and exchange short passes with Kagawa in the central area to unlock the defence, or go up front alongside RVP to add goal threat. He doesn't have to actually be 'on the wing', although if he sees a gap there it gives him an opportunity to use that excellent crossing ability of his.

We've seen that Kagawa is the better of the two of them in really tight spaces. What Rooney needs is that yard or so more room to get his head up and use his intelligence and creativity, and also the flexibility to go where he is needed on the pitch, which is another thing he excels at. Being ostensibly a bit wider than Kagawa will give him both of those things. And if he does spend most of the game in central areas, Evra is more than capable of providing just as much attacking threat as any of our wingers at the moment. Particularly if he's got Cleverley inside him, who likes to drift out wide sometimes, and has an excellent cross.
 
The funny thing is that even when Rooney was out injured SAF seemed to prefer RvP in behind Hernandez rather than Kagawa in the hole.

I think one of SAFs biggest challenges will be fitting all three into a formation without compromising one.

I saw on Sky earlier that in the last 4 PL games Rooney has had a total of 3 touches inside the oppositions penalty area compared to 20 in the previous four. That's really something as the withdrawn midfield role is clearly shackling him to a degree when his biggest threat is in the box. Maybe he errs on the side of caution staying back to not risk leaving Carrick isolated but its led to him not impacting the games how he normally does.

I can't say I know the answer but the experimentation tells me SAF doesn't quite know it yet either.
 
It was bizarre Fergie decided to sub him off when he caused West Ham all sorts of problems. Only then i realised that Fergie himself said he had already given the go-ahead to the fourth official to make the Hernandez sub
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Did that even make sense to you when you wrote it?

We're not making use of his abilities. Ok. He likes to pick out players who make runs. How very unusual of him. He's a team player. Right. He's not Eden Hazard. Gotcha.

Wait? What?

That's been a recurring theme in this thread. The idea that we have nobody else in the team capable of making a run worthy of the Japanese genius passing them the ball. I mean, what the actual feck? I can think of a lot of midfielders who would give their left bollock to be able to play behind strikers whose movement is as good as the likes of Rooney, Van Persie and Hernandez.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the runs are being made and Kagawa needs to learn how to spot them a bit quicker? And perhaps this will happen without any change to our style or system but by him simply spending a bit more time playing with his new team-mates?
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I think it goes both ways Pogue. To me, it's quite obvious the way we've been playing recently. Somehow you took my post as saying Kagawa wasn't to blame. It's two-fold mate.
 
Mystry said:
I can only make out what sounds like 'why' and 'father' right at the beginning. I think Shinji's dad is a dolphin.
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According to 101greatgoals:

UPDATE: Thanks to Dave on the 101 Great Goals Facebook page for a transcript of what is actually said on the advert:

Kagawa: Why, why is my dad…

Shinji’s dad – Shinji

Kagawa – .. a DOLPHIN dammit!?!? (Hits post)

Shinji’s dad – Come back home

Kagawa – Blast!!!

Uncle – I’ll put you in touch!!!

Kagawa – Uncle!!!

Uncle – Get in touch with your father!!!

Kagawa – With my dad?

Shinji’s dad – I want to see your face

(Scores goal) Uncle – Nice assist!!!

Kagawa – yeah

Uncle – And again (misses ball)

Kagawa – UNCLE!!!

Narrator – The No 1 way to get connected

Uncle – GOAL!!!
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