Maybe you should note that it was an example, and I'm not exaggerating. Evra is a brilliant left back, but the two systems are different. If you watched more of Japan, you would know that. As for your last sentence, Ekeke nor I are debating that. Read again...
Shinji Kagawa
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I have seen Japan a few times and saying "Evra is nowhere near as adventurous as Nagatomo" is well over the top in order to justify your point. Second, you suggest Kagawa gives us more width when he plays on the left- the implication being he is told to do that by the management when I have seen nothing that suggests that
I agree with you that what I said about Evra in comparison to Nagatomo was over the top, but the latter is given more freedom IMO. However, you clearly missed the point about our philosophy and style being different. Also, there is more reliance on Kagawa to add width, and he still does drift in, but to think that he plays in the same setup is a bit ignorant. Posters in this thread have recognised that he plays as an inside winger and it works effectively when he plays for Japan. You claim to have watched him a few times for Japan, maybe that's why. Anyway, we have to agree to disagree.
Well, that's the thing: Nagatomo is just as much a winger as he is a fullback. In fact, both Inter and Japan has used him as a winger several times because of this fact. In terms of attacking abilities, Nagatomo is right up there with some of the best fullbacks in the world. That is why I've wanted us to sign him for a while. The only thing I'm questioning, is his defensive abilities. He might be too offensive for United.
Spot on.
That's where I completely disagree. Take the Liverpool game at home for instance. Kagawa started wide left in that game but the width was almost entirely provided by Evra running down the wing. Just because Nagatomo is slightly more adventurous does not mean there is a great deal of difference between the two systems.
But you've misread and that's just one example. (By the way, this isn't about full backs offering width, that's not my point.) I, also, never said the left backs constitute to a change in system. What I did say: I was talking about how more of an inside position Kagawa takes for Japan and he is given a more free role. Again, some members agree, and some probably disagree, but we'll have to disagree on this issue.
Just give up, MoneyMay. If you check the old posts of this thread, then you'll quickly notice that akash02 almost have an obsession with playing Kagawa on the left wing at all cost. I don't know why... Maybe he's a hardcore Rooney fan? Maybe he doesn't think Kagawa is good enough to play behind the striker? Whatever it is, his shit is starting to get really old now.
You know it's bad when he fails to see the difference between Japan and United's playstyle.
You know it's bad when he fails to see the difference between Japan and United's playstyle.
Eh? My point has been Kagawa has never been played as an out an out winger and nor has he been relied on to provide the width. You'd have to be blind not to see that but of course kagawa fanboi's insist that's the reason he hasn't played well
I've never said that he's played as wide winger! I've merely stressed that he doesn't fit out on the left for us as much as he does for Japan, because of our playstyle. He's still too often out wide, and he doesn't get nearly enough touches in the center of the attacking third. That doesn't mean that Kagawa can't become great on the left wing for us. I just think that we'd all be better off if we just played him in the center already. That's where he's had his best moments this season.
And way to make a fool out of yourself: I think that Kagawa has played well this season
-------------De Gea
Rafael--Vidic--Ferdinand--Evra
----------Strootman
---Thiago----------Carrick
-----------Kagawa
------RVP------------Rooney
Please God let this happen. Kagawa will shine.
Rafael--Vidic--Ferdinand--Evra
----------Strootman
---Thiago----------Carrick
-----------Kagawa
------RVP------------Rooney
Please God let this happen. Kagawa will shine.
I agree when he is on the left he provides little width almost always comes inside and when he does stay out there he struggles to get involved. He is a central player.
I'd prefer the following:
De Gea
Rafael - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
---Carrick--- Strootman
Thiago - Kagawa - Nani
van Persie
With the three behind the striker all being interchangeable.
Japan and United don't play the same systems. One's expansive. The other is not. One requires you hold more width on at least one of the wings while the other doesn't. Should be pretty trivial to pick out which is which.
Our system can easily be adapted to have one of the wingers drift and we did see that at times with Kagawa and we've seen it before with Giggs, often though it looked like he was being asked to stay wide more. It's important though id you want to do that system to have two midfielders who know what they're doing there so they can plug the holes well when the winger does drift. I've said before but I don't see any reason why Kagawa can't play there with license to drift in the case Rooney does stay. Particularly seeing how Moyes used Pienaar and Baines, he can easily integrate that with Evra and Kagawa.
Kagawa's role on the left for Japan is very similar to how he has been asked to play from the left for us. The only difference is the Japanese players have a better understanding of his movement when he comes inside so can use him more effectively, although the signs towards the end of the season were that this is changing.
He certainly was never asked to stay wide and whip in crosses when he has played left for us.
He certainly was never asked to stay wide and whip in crosses when he has played left for us.
De Gea
Evans..........Vidic
Rafael.........................................Evra
Carrick
....Thiago...........Cleverley
Kagawa
Rooney........Van Persie
With Carrick getting older and playing more and more of a quarter back role, plus providing defensive cover, allowing the full backs to provide width. Then 3 young, agile, passing midfielders with quick feet and excellent movement in Thiago, Cleverley and Kagawa. Giving the two best strikers in the league the opportunity to play together, both in their preferred position.
Tell me that's not a thing of beauty! And as a formation it gets the best out of every single one of those outfield players.
I reckon if we were going to wipe away wingers completely you'd be better off playing Kagawa as an inside left. We don't really have a traditional inside right to align the formation symmetrically however. Carrick has always been a reader and an interceptor not a direct ball winner. That's why we saw him flourish this year especially linking with Van Persie but the defensive side of our game was pretty awful through the middle. We got countered often and that pressure was sometimes what caused us to stutter through some games.
I still think that the main thing right now is to look at what Carrick has done this past year and think that we should now play to that strength of quality passing through the defenses lines of advance and have someone who is genuinely winning ball and giving it to Carrick to do that.
-------DMC---------
-IFR--Carrick--Kagawa
---Rooney-RVP------
Carrick playing the link going forward rather than having to play a dual role. That way if someone in our setup is physically dictating the defensive side of the game you've got Carrick effectively sitting off and looking for the intercept all the time which also plays to his strength perfectly. In that formation Carrick wouldn't be all that far forward. You'd have Rooney coming deeper in the transition. The inside right and left would play from outside to in creating space for the strikers to get forward and then if we recycle the ball Carrick sitting back to penetrate.
Of course that is if we play without genuine chalk-boots wingers. If we prefer to continue using extreme width then this entire theorem goes out the window.
Manchester United midfielder Shinji Kagawa says he is determined to improve upon the form he produced during his first season at the club.
The 24-year-old Japan international arrived at Old Trafford last summer from Borussia Dortmund with a big reputation and went on to collect a title winners' medal.
However, despite featuring regularly and scoring a fine hat-trick in a 4-0 victory over Norwich, Kagawa feels he can play much better.
"It was a tough time for me, with a lot going on in my head," he said.
"I am not happy with my performance for the team at all. I didn't score that much and I also had my (knee) injury.
"Despite that, it was great we won the league, but I just don't feel that I achieved everything that I wanted.
"For me personally, it wasn't a good season."
Kagawa looks ahead
David Moyes has now taken over in charge at Old Trafford and Kagawa is hopeful of impressing the new man.
"Whenever there is a tough time, whenever it gets difficult for me, I just train and look ahead to the future," he told premierleague.com.
"I always think that I must play well and I always have an image in my mind of how I want to play, wherever the position."
Like his attitude ,but he needs to stop beating himself up .For a first season it was not that bad.
The 24-year-old Japan international arrived at Old Trafford last summer from Borussia Dortmund with a big reputation and went on to collect a title winners' medal.
However, despite featuring regularly and scoring a fine hat-trick in a 4-0 victory over Norwich, Kagawa feels he can play much better.
"It was a tough time for me, with a lot going on in my head," he said.
"I am not happy with my performance for the team at all. I didn't score that much and I also had my (knee) injury.
"Despite that, it was great we won the league, but I just don't feel that I achieved everything that I wanted.
"For me personally, it wasn't a good season."
Kagawa looks ahead
David Moyes has now taken over in charge at Old Trafford and Kagawa is hopeful of impressing the new man.
"Whenever there is a tough time, whenever it gets difficult for me, I just train and look ahead to the future," he told premierleague.com.
"I always think that I must play well and I always have an image in my mind of how I want to play, wherever the position."
Like his attitude ,but he needs to stop beating himself up .For a first season it was not that bad.
I like it when a player comes out and says he can do better, it gives us hope for the next season.
Rooney needs to listen and learn, rather than submitting a transfer request every time he gets subbed.
Rooney needs to listen and learn, rather than submitting a transfer request every time he gets subbed.
You would need good quality behind Carrick because he really doesn't have the dynamism for that role we need to be dominating the midfield battle for Carrick to really do well in there. I would rather continue what he does well and we get a younger more dynamic midfielder. Carrick has never really had that killer instinct in the final third as good a passer as he is.
Perfect attitude.
Jaff, Carrick wouldn't play in an advanced role. He would tuck in beside the other defensive central midfielder (a lot like when he played with Fletch) and sit off looking for the interception. Basically Rooney would be deep getting on the ball and starting the attack when Carrick is a sideways pass away but when the DM wins the ball Carrick is right there to step on it, turn and hit a good counter ball.
Not an AM in the 'hole' type of sense but the link player in a 3 man that turns into a 4-1-3-2 on the counter. I was surprised that Jones was the mobility player whenever he played in midfield last season. It was bizarre.
Jaff, Carrick wouldn't play in an advanced role. He would tuck in beside the other defensive central midfielder (a lot like when he played with Fletch) and sit off looking for the interception. Basically Rooney would be deep getting on the ball and starting the attack when Carrick is a sideways pass away but when the DM wins the ball Carrick is right there to step on it, turn and hit a good counter ball.
Not an AM in the 'hole' type of sense but the link player in a 3 man that turns into a 4-1-3-2 on the counter. I was surprised that Jones was the mobility player whenever he played in midfield last season. It was bizarre.
Its good to see Kagawa is really motivated for next season. He wants to prove a point and that can only be good for us.
So happy to have guys like him and Hernandez at our club.
Let's hope he translates the enthusiasm into performances. He has all the tools to succeed here and become a permanent fixture in the side. The slight worry is getting overwhelmed physicality in the league. Hope the past season has allowed him to come to terms with it.
I think his major worry is a permanent position to play. It will not be optimal, if we keep shuffling him from middle to wings frequently.
It was beyond bizarre, some of the rarest and weirdest decision by SAF. Jones in an advanced position was horrible to watch
Jones anywhere in midfield made very little sense, but that did indeed take the biscuit.
Came across this. Always classy on the ball, can't wait for him next season!
That dummy against West Ham .
.Ahh okay I see that makes more sense. So the 'xavi' in a 3 man midfield? I agree what Jones was doing last season baffled me really messed up our attack whenever he did that. Rooney and Kagawa dropping deep because he couldn't get the ball to them on the ground also. Carrick was quiet that match also. I'm thinking of against West Ham.
I'm not sure about that. I haven't seen him in too many games for Japan, but from what I have seen they do not play him on the left. We have on several occasions and it does not make best use of his ability.
They absolutely do, 95% of the time. Agree that we shouldn't, though - he should be first choice at #10 without question. Rooney can play the 'wide' role just fine.
Fair enough. As I said, I don't see much of Japan.
Dortmund got great use out of him though! We can surely do that.
He definitely will cushion the blow whenever the Thiago deal falls through. I think he will be important for us next season
It's better to play with no winger at all rather than starting Valencua and Young regularly. Lets to this, playing Carrick, Cleverly, Strootman and Thiago in diamond four.
I must know the context of this
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