Shinji Kagawa

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yeah that's fine but is Welbeck? No but we've been happy to put him there. As I said we're happy to play people on their wrong foot knowing they will come inside. Look at how Januzaj just played. I don't think Moyes has done anything to suggest he's really looking for two wingers going to the byline and I don't think his Everton days suggest that given how he used Pienaar and Baines.


Januzaj plays out wide because at this stage in his development he can't call shots on where he plays- he cheerfully even play at full back so long as he gets minutes; and the wide areas provide an insurance when trying to blood players in. They can afford to make mistakes in those areas that may otherwise prove costlier in central positions.

Welbeck is a more rounded player than Kagawa, IIRC he played out wide for Sunderland in the Premiership/Championship a few years back and so already has plenty of experience operating in wide positions. Additionally, his work-rate is just immense and didn't SAF said he wins the ball back better than any other striker at the club?

Kagawa may be in the same boat as those players in trying to force a way into the squad but he doesn't possess the same attributes as them.
 
Januzaj plays out wide because at this stage in his development he can't call shots on where he plays- he cheerfully even play at full back so long as he gets minutes; and the wide areas provide an insurance when trying to blood players in. They can afford to make mistakes in those areas that may otherwise prove costlier in central positions.

Welbeck is a more rounded player than Kagawa, IIRC he played out wide for Sunderland in the Premiership/Championship a few years back and so already has plenty of experience operating in wide positions. Additionally, his work-rate is just immense and didn't SAF said he wins the ball back better than any other striker at the club?

Kagawa may be in the same boat as those players in trying to force a way into the squad but he doesn't possess the same attributes as them.


But he posses plenty of other attributes which can easily get him a place in the team and can be easily utilized even if he starts from a wider position. Loads of players of his ilk play from a slightly wider position but are allowed to drift and are still there teams most influential players. No reason Kagawa can't do the same. If he doesn't get games centrally it's because he's not showing he can offer more than Rooney can. So he either needs to adapt his game to get in the team in another position, ie from slightly wider or he'll have to wait for his chance.

Personally though I don't see why once Moyes has had a chance to properly work with him and get to know him that he won't be able to fit him in drifting in from the left and I don't see why Kagawa can't excel from there.
 
I don't understand why there's widespread opposition to Kagawa playing from the left. There are tons of modern day AM's who play in from the wide areas and do very well.
 
I don't understand why there's widespread opposition to Kagawa playing from the left. There are tons of modern day AM's who play in from the wide areas and do very well.

I think the only way we can really utilise Kagawa is from the left, but there's no doubting you'd see the best of him from the centre.
 
I think the only way we can really utilise Kagawa is from the left, but there's no doubting you'd see the best of him from the centre.

You could easily play Rooney notionally 'from the left' in the same way, and Kagawa central. I doubt it would reduce Rooney's effectiveness; he's equally good from anywhere in attack when he's in this sort of mood. And if you start Fellaini, it gives Evra the license to play aggressively and provide plenty of width on the outside.
 
I think the only way we can really utilise Kagawa is from the left, but there's no doubting you'd see the best of him from the centre.
I think that's pretty much the case, yes. And therein lies a potential problem. On-paper positions don't mean all that much. He could easily play out left without having to be a left sided version of Valencia. And Moyes of all people knows this very well. So, that ain't the problem. It's the way we play in general which may turn out to be ill suited to his particular talents: I agree with what was suggested above: Both Japan and Dortmund play in a manner which allows/allowed Kagawa to remain at the hub, as it were, seeing more of the ball than the other attackers, which he seems to thrive on.

With Rooney in the hole it's hard to imagine Kagawa's role being as instrumental as it was for Dortmund. He might have to alter his game, in short, in order to be a success for us. Hopefully he can do just that - but I think it's a legitimate concern, one that has grown on me, so to speak. I hope my misgivings are unfounded.

This has nothing to do with the current situation, by the way. There are perfectly good reasons why he hasn't featured much thus far. Nor do I think Moyes has anything against the lad. He will get his chance, no doubt about that. I'm just concerned about how well he'll take it.
 
I think that's pretty much the case, yes. And therein lies a potential problem. On-paper positions don't mean all that much. He could easily play out left without having to be a left sided version of Valencia. And Moyes of all people knows this very well. So, that ain't the problem. It's the way we play in general which may turn out to be ill suited to his particular talents: I agree with what was suggested above: Both Japan and Dortmund play in a manner which allows/allowed Kagawa to remain at the hub, as it were, seeing more of the ball than the other attackers, which he seems to thrive on.

With Rooney in the hole it's hard to imagine Kagawa's role being as instrumental as it was for Dortmund. He might have to alter his game, in short, in order to be a success for us. Hopefully he can do just that - but I think it's a legitimate concern, one that has grown on me, so to speak. I hope my misgivings are unfounded.

This has nothing to do with the current situation, by the way. There are perfectly good reasons why he hasn't featured much thus far. Nor do I think Moyes has anything against the lad. He will get his chance, no doubt about that. I'm just concerned about how well he'll take it.

Sums it up nicely, for me.
 
Pretty much my exact thoughts on Kagawa situation:

http://www.football365.com/profile365/8917264/FREE-THE-CARRINGTON-ONE-Sort-Of...

International breaks are frustrating things. They pop up at the most inconvenient times: three games into the Premier League season, things are just starting to take on some kind of shape, and suddenly - BANG! - England have Hodgsoned all over the carpet, and takes ages to get those stains out.
Still, at least it's given us time to mull over some of the important issues, and come to some firm conclusions. We can now rest assured of two things. One, Shinji Kagawa is the greatest footballer in the history of the world. And two, David Moyes's refusal to pick him is evidence that he is either (a) malignant, (b) incompetent, or (c) both.
He must be. After all, toward the end of last season Kagawa's former manager Jurgen Klopp said "I've never known such a player. He doesn't just have a nose for goal, he has an entire respiratory system for goal, one that harvests oxygen from the air almost as an afterthought. When he drinks fizzy pop too fast, he hiccups the Morse code for 'goal'. He has GOAL tattooed on the knuckles of his right hand, and LAOG on the knuckles of his left, in case he looks in a mirror. He can say 'goal' in three hundred languages, including Welsh. If he pulls four letters out of a Scrabble bag, they will be G, O, A, and L. If he's in a crowded room, and one person thinks the word 'goal', he can point straight to them. Why, when he -[That's enough - Ed.]"
Since Klopp has a beard and glasses and doesn't wear a suit, and looks like he might have a strong-yet-tender embrace, he can only have been speaking from a position of scholarly disinterest. Since his side play the kind of football that makes English side look like lumpen cloggers, he can only have been acting with only the highest of motives. Presumably Borussia Dortmund's attempt to buy Kagawa back over the summer was motivated by nothing more than pastoral concern.
No, he's not like that nasty David Moyes. You've all read Kagawa's comments after Japan's game against Ghana, yes? How he accused Moyes of refusing to pick him, refusing to talk to him, and refusing to grow a beard, wear glasses, and stop wearing suits all the time just like dear Uncle Kloppi used to do? Yes, those quotes turned out to be massively overplayed and mistranslated to the point of fiction, but if you don't like them, then no matter, there's a racist parody Twitter account to be quoting. He can't feel right! It's just not possible!
Some might say that maybe, just maybe, an alternative reading of the situation might be available. It could be the case that for all Kagawa's undoubted talent and for all his fine Bundesliga pedigree, his performances last season, disrupted by injury and affected by rotation though they were, didn't quite amount to a pressing case to be given the keys to Manchester United's forward line.
It might be the case that the twitchier end of Manchester United's fanbase, still coming to terms with the uncertainties of a post-Ferguson world, are taking their (natural and quite reasonable) desire to see a potentially-exciting and perhaps even game-breaking player in the team, multiplying it by their (reasonable and quite natural) concerns that Moyes might have been a cosmically stupid appointment, and have ended up overreacting to a perfectly comprehensible wish on the manager's part to either acquaint himself with a player who is relatively young, relatively unfamiliar, and relatively unorthodox, or to ensure that said player is fully fit after a disrupted pre-season. Or both.
Speculatively, it could be the case that some journalists are quite enjoying their new-found freedom to write whatever the hell they want about Manchester United, and that some of the more presumptuously nonsensical pieces are a kind of football hack version of the Munchkins' liberation classic "Ding-Dong The Witch Is Dead", though sadly Profile365 lacks the access to confirm whether the nation's esteemed sports-desks have seen any actual capering.
(More fancifully, it might be concluded that Kagawa has, through no fault of his own, become something of a MacGuffin, a plot catalyst that permits all of the interested parties above to behave in the way that their characters demand. Though this suggestion would involve talking about "narrative", and nobody really wants that.)
And finally, it might even be proposed that since the league season is only three games old - for emphasis, that's three; not thirty-three, or twenty-three, or even thirteen, but three; one, then two, then three, then done - it's perhaps a trifle early to be drawing any kind of sodding conclusion about anything at all, you hysterical berks.
But, well, that's no fun, is it? Let's go with the delicate-flower-imprisoned-by-evil-Scotsman thing. After all, it's international week, and it's a straight choice between this and getting all huffy about nitrous oxide. SHINJI IS INNOCENT! FREE THE CARRINGTON ONE! MOYES OUT! MOYES OUT! MOYES OUT!
 
I think that's pretty much the case, yes. And therein lies a potential problem. On-paper positions don't mean all that much. He could easily play out left without having to be a left sided version of Valencia. And Moyes of all people knows this very well. So, that ain't the problem. It's the way we play in general which may turn out to be ill suited to his particular talents: I agree with what was suggested above: Both Japan and Dortmund play in a manner which allows/allowed Kagawa to remain at the hub, as it were, seeing more of the ball than the other attackers, which he seems to thrive on.

With Rooney in the hole it's hard to imagine Kagawa's role being as instrumental as it was for Dortmund. He might have to alter his game, in short, in order to be a success for us. Hopefully he can do just that - but I think it's a legitimate concern, one that has grown on me, so to speak. I hope my misgivings are unfounded.

This has nothing to do with the current situation, by the way. There are perfectly good reasons why he hasn't featured much thus far. Nor do I think Moyes has anything against the lad. He will get his chance, no doubt about that. I'm just concerned about how well he'll take it.
Agree a lot of what you say and it seems in an ideal world if we could have got an offer from Rooney abroad and bought Ozil for the left and moved Kagawa central it would have been perfect. But we didn't so as Rooney is dreadful out left unless Kagawa can prove better than Wayne in the middle (he wont get many opportunities to prove this) then he is going to have to play out left. As Rooney doesn't appreciate being left out (as any player doesn't) I'm a big Rooney fan but can't help thinking we have a player who does really 100% want to play here so maybe we should have cut our losses and moved him on as we will only be dogged by this again next transfer window going by past actions of Wayne and that cretin Stretford. And given Danny Kagawa and Hernandez the platform to shine.
 
Agree a lot of what you say and it seems in an ideal world if we could have got an offer from Rooney abroad and bought Ozil for the left and moved Kagawa central it would have been perfect. But we didn't so as Rooney is dreadful out left unless Kagawa can prove better than Wayne in the middle (he wont get many opportunities to prove this) then he is going to have to play out left. As Rooney doesn't appreciate being left out (as any player doesn't) I'm a big Rooney fan but can't help thinking we have a player who does really 100% want to play here so maybe we should have cut our losses and moved him on as we will only be dogged by this again next transfer window going by past actions of Wayne and that cretin Stretford. And given Danny Kagawa and Hernandez the platform to shine.
Aye - this part adds something to the whole "Kagawa conundrum", there's no question about it. From a purely "sentimental" viewpoint I prefer those three over Wayne: Kagawa strikes me as a decent lad, focused on his football, no fuss, good character, etc. Chicharito is, well, who can possibly have anything but love for him? And Danny is probably THE player at United at the moment I really, really want to see turn into a true world beater.

But Rooney...well, firstly I don't hate him. I've never been able to do that. I like him too much as a footballer and I maintain that what he's done isn't enough to warrant his head on a plate. And he hasn't done what some of his most vocal detractors predicted: Quite to the contrary it seems he has decided to play football, alongside RVP, doing what he's paid to do. He has started the season very well, in fact.

There is a way in which all the players mentioned would be allowed to shine: RVP up front, Rooney in the hole, Welbeck and Kagawa as tucked-in wingers. And even better, all three of them moving about, interchanging. Chicharito's role would be that of impact sub, goal provider off the bench, Ole Gunnar style. If this comes to pass I'll be a happy man.
 
Aye - this part adds something to the whole "Kagawa conundrum", there's no question about it. From a purely "sentimental" viewpoint I prefer those three over Wayne: Kagawa strikes me as a decent lad, focused on his football, no fuss, good character, etc. Chicharito is, well, who can possibly have anything but love for him? And Danny is probably THE player at United at the moment I really, really want to see turn into a true world beater.

But Rooney...well, firstly I don't hate him. I've never been able to do that. I like him too much as a footballer and I maintain that what he's done isn't enough to warrant his head on a plate. And he hasn't done what some of his most vocal detractors predicted: Quite to the contrary it seems he has decided to play football, alongside RVP, doing what he's paid to do. He has started the season very well, in fact.

There is a way in which all the players mentioned would be allowed to shine: RVP up front, Rooney in the hole, Welbeck and Kagawa as tucked-in wingers. And even better, all three of them moving about, interchanging. Chicharito's role would be that of impact sub, goal provider off the bench, Ole Gunnar style. If this comes to pass I'll be a happy man.
What about Nani Young Valencia Zaha and AJ?
 
Aye - this part adds something to the whole "Kagawa conundrum", there's no question about it. From a purely "sentimental" viewpoint I prefer those three over Wayne: Kagawa strikes me as a decent lad, focused on his football, no fuss, good character, etc. Chicharito is, well, who can possibly have anything but love for him? And Danny is probably THE player at United at the moment I really, really want to see turn into a true world beater.

But Rooney...well, firstly I don't hate him. I've never been able to do that. I like him too much as a footballer and I maintain that what he's done isn't enough to warrant his head on a plate. And he hasn't done what some of his most vocal detractors predicted: Quite to the contrary it seems he has decided to play football, alongside RVP, doing what he's paid to do. He has started the season very well, in fact.

There is a way in which all the players mentioned would be allowed to shine: RVP up front, Rooney in the hole, Welbeck and Kagawa as tucked-in wingers. And even better, all three of them moving about, interchanging. Chicharito's role would be that of impact sub, goal provider off the bench, Ole Gunnar style. If this comes to pass I'll be a happy man.


Swap Nani for Welbeck, unless we really need some extra defensive work in there and I'd be very happy. Either way between the 5 of them they have the potential there to produce a fluid attack, hopefully we will see that sort of attack given a good run. There's still plenty of opportunity to include someone like Valencia as there will be times where we want to be wider or want his power. Personally after having seen the impact of Zaha and Januzaj in pre-season I would have had no issues if Young got moved on as really would rather see those guys get as much gametime as they can.

But yeah there's easily a way that Kagawa can be involved with RVP and Rooney and still be very influential.
 
What about Nani Young Valencia Zaha and AJ?
Hehe. Yeah. But we'll need more than eleven men. I'm thinking in terms of our best starting XI. If all those you mention are either on form (Nani, Young, Valencia) or prove themselves to be as good as they look potentially (AJ and Zaha), Moyes will be spoilt for choice. And that's a very good thing, even if it means that someone will inevitably get less minutes than they would've under different circumstances.
 
Swap Nani for Welbeck, unless we really need some extra defensive work in there and I'd be very happy. Either way between the 5 of them they have the potential there to produce a fluid attack, hopefully we will see that sort of attack given a good run. There's still plenty of opportunity to include someone like Valencia as there will be times where we want to be wider or want his power. Personally after having seen the impact of Zaha and Januzaj in pre-season I would have had no issues if Young got moved on as really would rather see those guys get as much gametime as they can.

But yeah there's easily a way that Kagawa can be involved with RVP and Rooney and still be very influential.
Yes, by all means - if Nani shows up in his best form he replaces Welbeck in that set-up. Hopefully Danny will take further steps, making himself perfectly irreplaceable - but he isn't quite there yet, clearly not.
 
Yes, by all means - if Nani shows up in his best form he replaces Welbeck in that set-up. Hopefully Danny will take further steps, making himself perfectly irreplaceable - but he isn't quite there yet, clearly not.


Yeah, there's plenty of scope for you to have any combination of those 5 and it be very good, just need to get them all fit and in the squad.
 
You could easily play Rooney notionally 'from the left' in the same way, and Kagawa central. I doubt it would reduce Rooney's effectiveness; he's equally good from anywhere in attack when he's in this sort of mood. And if you start Fellaini, it gives Evra the license to play aggressively and provide plenty of width on the outside.

I remember Rooney giving a hell of a performance on the left in that comeback against Spurs a few years back (the Gomes penalty one).
 
Rooney put in quite a good number of decent performances from the left; but could he do it now?

The main concern would be his ability to beat a man, he use to be great at dodging a tackle and getting beyond somebody and creating some space for himself - but he doesn't seem to be able to do that these days..

He would be wasted on the left though, let's be honest.. So would Kagawa but I think he'd be better suited to the flank than Rooney.
 
I remember Rooney giving a hell of a performance on the left in that comeback against Spurs a few years back (the Gomes penalty one).

That Rooney is not the same as the 1 we have today.

Back then he was fairly quick and agile, and had the beating of most defenders 1 on 1.

These days he seems fairly stiff and struggles to go passed defenders unless he can cut inside.
 
That Rooney is not the same as the 1 we have today.

Back then he was fairly quick and agile, and had the beating of most defenders 1 on 1.

These days he seems fairly stiff and struggles to go passed defenders unless he can cut inside.


Maybe true last season but, this season he seems to be doing a lot better in being able to get away from people - reminds me a lot of the way he played in middle part of the season after Ronaldo left.

Anyway, I don't think we need him playing on the left but, I don't think we need Kagawa on the left - a lot more interchanging type line up with the likes of Nani, Rooney and Kagawa behind RVP would be something I'd love to see us go more and more towards.
 
Good first half. We're so much more creative, unpredictable and comfortable on the ball when Kagawa is on the field.

It would be better if we allowed him to play behind RVP, but Rooney's form is excellent now, so it's not like we're suffering. It seems like they're switching positions all the time anyways, so I guess it's fair this way.
 
A little sloppy and rusty, but then maybe that's because of my high standards for him as he has 89% pass completion rate.

Looking dangerous, but you can tell that he would do well to get some game time under him.
 
Moyes still hates him - he's only playing him to put him in the shop window. He'll be off in January, and we'll give a Giggs another year extension instead of giving Januzaj signed up to a new contract. LOL United so dumb.
 
Does the ref hate him? Or are these tackles acceptable?

None of them have been given a replay since they haven't been considered a foul by the ref, but I thought possibly all 3 could (should) have been fouls.
 
Bound to be rusty so it's understandable but he was little more than a passenger tonight IMO.
 
Good first half. Faded after. Needs more games but I like what he adds.
 
Moyes still hates him - he's only playing him to put him in the shop window. He'll be off in January, and we'll give a Giggs another year extension instead of giving Januzaj signed up to a new contract. LOL United so dumb.

You mistakenly posted this on the caf. Intended for the Facebook page, I presume. Regards to Frogie.
 
Good first half. Faded after. Needs more games but I like what he adds.

Agreed. This was his first competitive game for us in more than 5 weeks and he just recovered from a flu, so we can't expect him to carry the attack, especially when he's being played on the left. Give him more games, and he'll be awesome once again.

Still, he was one of our best players in the first half. It's hardly a coinscidence either, because he was allowed to switch places with Rooney all the time and he spent a lot of time centrally. We also kept a higher pressure on Leverkusen, which is ideal for Kagawa's playstyle. High pressure + lots of movement + attacking down the center as well as the flanks = Kagawa mode.

--

Seeing as Rooney seems to be in better form than he has been for a long time, I reckon it will be long before Kagawa will play behind RVP for a whole game. He'll have to get used to the left side.
 
Those tweets aren't funny at all...

Looked decent today. Should start at City as well
 
Seen this opinion on facebook:

perhaps it's just me , but these little oriental footballers have never achieved and will never achieve anything in the world of football... Kagawa may be very technically gifted but he is another Ji Sung Park who had more heart than he has... both get blown off the ball by an angel's fart...he doesn't play because the manager thinks he provides very little.... and I fully agree.
 
Did alright tonight, few nice touches but he gets shoved off the ball a fair bit and it doesn't help when the ref just allows it. We didn't really counter-attack much while he was on the pitch where he really comes into his own and a lot of the play was quite static or bypassed him to go directly to the front 2. He's definitely a much better number 10 than an inside-left player.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.