I still think a front four of RVP, Rooney, Nani and Kagawa is our best bet.
Shinji Kagawa
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That's just wrong. He plays there for Japan and kills teams from that position.
So I've seen. But if he doesn't do it here then it doesn't matter. No doubt this is a higher level than what he plays at with Japan and it may be why he's struggling.
Right now I think it'll be RVP, Rooney, Nani and Valencia. Kagawa needs more time and to ease himself back in, building his confidence in the process.
Of course what he does at United is what counts but to say he is unaware of how to play that role is just wrong. In fact, Japan play a far more fluid style than us, maybe it's the others who should adapt as Kagawa has pretty much mastered it for them.
I don't mean that as a dig at United or any of the players but I think many will get my drift.
He has to fit into our system. If he can't do what he is being asked to do then he will struggle. He's played well in different systems to ours, but it doesn't look like we'll be changing any time soon. If he's as clever a footballer as we all think then he will adapt and find a way to be effective.
I agree, however, the way we line up, in that formation without traditional wingers (if Kagawa is on the left), the correct way to play it, is the way Japan do.
Has it occurs to you it's because he's never given a proper run in the left?
Was it just me or did He look more effective when he was playing on the right ahead of Rafael?
Even though he plays on the left for Japan very well. I have always prefered him on the right. I just remember back to his Dortmund days, some of the runs from the right hand side seemed to suit him well.
Because he isn't a winger, he will naturally come in and play and I think that would allow Rafael to link well. So, while I don't think it will happen, I do agree that I would prefer to see Nani on the left and Kagawa on the right.
Some of the interplay between him and Nani looked promising. Both seemed to know what the other would do. Him and Cleverley showed that at times last season.
As the "being stuck out on the left" excuse is being used I'd like to see a heat map of his game. Seemed to me that him and Nani were given a huge amount of freedom, popping up all over the place. Kagawa's first two touches were to the right of the opposition box and in the middle of the centre circle.
As it happened, both of these touches went straight to the opposition. A theme which continued for the rest of that half.
As it happened, both of these touches went straight to the opposition. A theme which continued for the rest of that half.
I thought he was poor. The weak link in an otherwise cracking performance from the team.
Interesting debate going on here.
I think Kagawa is being held to a higher standard by Moyes than Young. What I mean is that Young has been given the opportunity to play himself into some form with regular games, whereas Kagawa gets hooked in the next game.
I'd agree with those who say he was mixed in the first half and good in the second. Thing is, his flashes of brilliance are more than what Young has produced throughout a prolonged run. With Kagawa, are lot of us are banking on his potential. As it happens, none of the wingers have really staked a claim to be an irrefutable starter, so is it that much of an affront to ask for Shinji just to be given a run of games?
I think Kagawa is being held to a higher standard by Moyes than Young. What I mean is that Young has been given the opportunity to play himself into some form with regular games, whereas Kagawa gets hooked in the next game.
I'd agree with those who say he was mixed in the first half and good in the second. Thing is, his flashes of brilliance are more than what Young has produced throughout a prolonged run. With Kagawa, are lot of us are banking on his potential. As it happens, none of the wingers have really staked a claim to be an irrefutable starter, so is it that much of an affront to ask for Shinji just to be given a run of games?
You know that Moyes hasn't given Young any more starts than Kagawa, right?
Are you sure those are starts? On the previous page someone pointed out that they had started the same number of games.
Yep, I'm sure.
http://espnfc.com/player/_/id/102139/shinji-kagawa?cc=5739 (Edit - click on appearances tab to get a full breakdown).
Looking at that link, he's played at least 70 minutes in two of the last three games, so I'm hopeful this is the start of a decent run of games for him.
I totally see where you're coming from in terms of him not setting the world alight and Moyes also saying he lacks match sharpness, but he's caught in a real catch-22 situation here: it's not fair to judge him for par/sub-par performances when he's played relatively little football for us.
Of course, that link does bear out what Moyes has been saying about Kagawa's international travails - it will have been hard for Moyes to get a proper look at him, and perhaps that's why he's played it safe with his selections, especially given the difficulty of the fixture list.
http://espnfc.com/player/_/id/102139/shinji-kagawa?cc=5739 (Edit - click on appearances tab to get a full breakdown).
Looking at that link, he's played at least 70 minutes in two of the last three games, so I'm hopeful this is the start of a decent run of games for him.
I totally see where you're coming from in terms of him not setting the world alight and Moyes also saying he lacks match sharpness, but he's caught in a real catch-22 situation here: it's not fair to judge him for par/sub-par performances when he's played relatively little football for us.
Of course, that link does bear out what Moyes has been saying about Kagawa's international travails - it will have been hard for Moyes to get a proper look at him, and perhaps that's why he's played it safe with his selections, especially given the difficulty of the fixture list.
From memory, I make it three starts to two. Could be wrong though. Either way, it's a very small difference and misleading to imply Young has had a much longer run of starts to play himself into form.
Not that I'm excusing Young's abject performances. Just find it unfair that people are desperate to excuse similary ineffective displays from Kagawa while absolutely crucifying Young.
EDIT: yeah, according to that espn link it's 3 starts vs 2. We're both wrong. Phew!
Not that I'm excusing Young's abject performances. Just find it unfair that people are desperate to excuse similary ineffective displays from Kagawa while absolutely crucifying Young.
EDIT: yeah, according to that espn link it's 3 starts vs 2. We're both wrong. Phew!
Regardless of form so far, we have looked quite a predictable team over the last couple of seasons. A lot of our play is too laboured. Players like Cleverly and Kagawa move the ball quickly, and we need to find places for them in the team. We'll be better for it.
I agree that the criticism of Young has become very distasteful. I don't rate the fella in the slightest, but it's disappointing to see quite how scathing some of his treatment has been.
What may have skewed perceptions is that Young has been given the nod in all of our big games - got the chance to have half an hour against Chelsea, started against Liverpool, started against City - whereas Kagawa's played the more 'peripheral' fixtures thus far.
As I said though, Moyes has explained that he hasn't had the chance to properly assess Kagawa because of his international commitments. Given that he's been quite open and frank about the situation, we can't really argue. What will be difficult to swallow is if Kagawa continues to kick his heels on the bench. He's started two of the last three, so hopefully that won't be the case.
What may have skewed perceptions is that Young has been given the nod in all of our big games - got the chance to have half an hour against Chelsea, started against Liverpool, started against City - whereas Kagawa's played the more 'peripheral' fixtures thus far.
As I said though, Moyes has explained that he hasn't had the chance to properly assess Kagawa because of his international commitments. Given that he's been quite open and frank about the situation, we can't really argue. What will be difficult to swallow is if Kagawa continues to kick his heels on the bench. He's started two of the last three, so hopefully that won't be the case.
His first half was very average, and got somewhat better during the second. He definitely needs to up his game if he wants to become a permanent fixture. Personally he's now had a good year at United and all the excuses afforded to him over the course of the year should now stop, and judge him like we do other players. He has had a good settling in period. He is not potential - he was already a full international and performed at a very high standard for Dortmund, seems very fit, and being played out of position is no excuse for looking weak, and losing the ball too often.
Agreed that the time to perform has come and that we can't keep falling back on excuses. All that's left is for Moyes to give him regular chances - we have a good fixture list now, so I think he will.
Maybe it wasn't his best game, but we played a helluva lot better with him on the pitch than without - and I'm not just talking this match. His ability to find space, run into it, pass into it and link-up with other players, especially Rooney and Nani is exactly what we have been missing.
One might argue he wasn't brilliant out wide, but why was he substituted then? He should be playing behind the striker. I think Giggs actually had a good game, but Kagawa should have been given that opportunity.
One might argue he wasn't brilliant out wide, but why was he substituted then? He should be playing behind the striker. I think Giggs actually had a good game, but Kagawa should have been given that opportunity.
I agree with the jist of what you're saying, but Young's criticism has probably been more scathing due to 2 of his 3 starts coming against Pool and City, with the other against Palace iirc.
Liverpool - off after 62 min
Palace - off 66 min and
City - off 50 min
I doubt Kagawa would have influenced the result or performance in at least 2 of those 3 games (if any of them). I just hope Kagawa's given a consistent run in the team though. That is something that's rarely been afforded to him - injuries or whatever reasons.
Fergie subbed Kagawa off a LOT last season as well. iirc he only finished 5-6 full games all season.
Jaysus, what happened there. That last sentence has me worried you've just had a stroke.
Anderson stylee. A lack of fitness or just not playing well enough. When a player doesn't last 90 minutes it's invariably their own fault.
I do apologise mate. I initially copy + pasted Young's stats off the ESPN site. But I couldn't paste the text only
http://espnfc.com/player/_/id/31810/ashley-young?cc=3888
Thanks for the concern though, PM, and welcome back.
Ozil got subbed off an awful lot at Madrid too, so did Cleverley for us. They give a lot of movement on and off the ball and I think they tire a bit in the second half. Some players are a bit like that but I'm sure they can all conserve energy a bit better or build stamina/endurance.
Was it Hernandez' fault he was substituted last night or Kagawa's last night? I thought they both played well but were substituted due to tactical reasons.
He plays on the left fopr Japan, he can do it for us. We just need to play a bit more narrow to accomodate him, we won't drop Rooney who has been our best player for him.
I thought Hernandez can feel hard done by. Although i guess taking a striker off was inevitable when defending a league. Kagawa probably deserved the hook.
Poor first half, better in second but nothing exceptional. Really needs a run of games to build up some consistency, I hope he plays at the weekend.
Yeah, I would have taken off Giggs.
Although he seemed to get a weird second wind in the last 15 minutes and started tearing round the pitch. He's a freak of nature.
I think his heat map shows we're happy to let him have that freedom to come inside, and I definitely saw a few occassions where he would move inside and Rooney would drift left. Now they just need time to gel. Personally although I accept he hasn't exactly taken each chance hes had to really shine I think he's shown enough flashes to get a run ahead of Valencia or Young and from a wider role, and then assess from there. Though then also have Welbeck to factor in and if we're being fair Januzaj who hasn't shown any issue with adapting in any of the appearances he's made. He didn't see much of the ball yest but when he did he certainly wasn't daunted with taking people on or playing his game.
He really is! I remember against Real Madrid that he did the same thing there as well, all the way up to the 120 minute.
When he's properly rested, as he was leading up to the match against Liverpool, he shows that he still has the legs to run past players and chase them down. It's just that he can't be depended on doing that every match anymore. But this is the Kagawa thread...
It's easy to see that he hasn't played much.
Or..... it's easy to see why he hasn't played much.
I think he was very poor, gave the ball away A LOT in the first half, a bit better in the second.
Professional football is tough, you need to perform when given chances. And he hasn't. The hat-trick was nice and he was very good at Goodison last season, besides that: Meh.
Knee jerk alert:
Must say, from what I've seen so far (since August 2012), I'd be delighted if we flog Kagawa to Dortmund in January and bought Mata. It's obviously not going to happen mind.
Or..... it's easy to see why he hasn't played much.
I think he was very poor, gave the ball away A LOT in the first half, a bit better in the second.
Professional football is tough, you need to perform when given chances. And he hasn't. The hat-trick was nice and he was very good at Goodison last season, besides that: Meh.
Knee jerk alert:
Must say, from what I've seen so far (since August 2012), I'd be delighted if we flog Kagawa to Dortmund in January and bought Mata. It's obviously not going to happen mind.
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