City and Chelsea being the two. I wasnt counting Liverpool numbnuts
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
Thats probably it. I just think that we have a couple of seasons ahead of us where we wont get what we are used to and that wouldnt be any different no matter who the manager was. If pep came here for example I doubt he would find a squad with the type of players capable of playing his style of football.
There are a few things that need fixing with the squad and any manager would be wanting to adjust to suit his ideas.
Im just amazed at how impatient people are. Would fans today handle this? http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/division-one-old/1989-1990/table under Fergie.
Moyes needs to be allowed to try and do things his way and if he fails then by all means slag him off but at least give the guy a chance to get his ideas in place and to sign a few more players to fit his ideas. Some of the stuff being written here is making hard judgements based on a situation Moyes still hasnt had a fair amount of time to get under his complete control. I think it wont be till next season that we get an idea and see signs of progress or regression.
I think the knowledge of players is more related to their personality, their character, how they handle pressure, how they handle their form going off, how they handle their form being top notch. Learning players playing abilities, strengths and weaknesses is the quicker area to get a handle on, player psychology and their individual needs with respect to personal management takes longer. Different players respond differently to different methods of motivation, be it a kick in the arse, a pat on the back, personal targets or challenges.
Tonight we saw the real Manchester United, soon we will see the real David Moyes. He let that side play tonight, and they did well. It could have gone either way, but fair play to Moyes, he allowed the side to play an open game. A lot of managers would have played it safe tonight, once we got the goal we did not sit back either. Its going to take longer for him to settle in, but there are a lot more positives than negatives.
Surely its time to change the thread title from "Moyes so far" to just "Moyes"?
Surely its time to change the thread title from "Moyes so far" to just "Moyes"?
Count me in, then. Find it disgraceful really.
In short, no they wouldn't. This isn't a quarter century ago. The pressures are amplified by things like web forums, social media, and people discussing the slightest things ad nauseum these days. That's why Moyes has to produce immediately. There really is no room for mediocrity at United, especially after two decades of utter excellence.
See I just dont think the 25 year ago argument holds any water. there has always been pressure, football was just as intense and all consuming back in the 20's for example. Its always been run by big money and its always been pressurized from fan expectations, thats nothing recent.
The thing is expecting him to produce immediately is simply short sighted. Its why Fergie succeeded, if he had been turfed out after 2 seasons we wouldnt have got what we have now.
Unfortunately we're in a different world today. Different media space, difference fan base, different expectations. Most of it is driven by technology and people analyzing every little hiccup players and managers make, then discussing endlessly on forums and social media sites. This in turn creates different pressure narratives than what existed with limited television, radio, and newspapers a quarter century ago. In short, don't expect Moyes to get much time before he has to produce results, especially after having inherited a side that just walked the league.
The club that saf inherited and the club that moyes inherited are two vastly different entities. Hence the comparison between their starts make no sense. If we were one of the best teams in the world who were regularly dominating the domestic league Ferguson would have been sacked a long time ago rather than being allowed to build the club. And this has nothing to do with being spoilt. Just the fact that our expectations are different now an rightly so.
Saw a headline saying that this win gives him 'breathing space'. Do they actually think his job is under threat? Fergie's losses and poor performances were similarly debated to the nth degree, and he had the reputation of being the most successful British manager ever! There will always be talk about what went wrong with poor performances but the stability at this club means sets us apart imo.
Yep and I agree that's perfectly reasonable but I think moyes is going a step further at times and almost making it sound like he doesn't know anything about some players. His comment on Hernandez wasn't about him as a person but his movement which anyone who's watched a handful of games he's played could tell you about and is something I'm sure moyes knows. That's why I think it's strange.
I used to go to OT before Fergie started and the expectations back then were just as high as now, the difference was that Fergie could deliver on expectations. The pressure when Liverpool were winning all the time is one of the reasons we went through so many managers in such a relatively short space of time. I dont know why people think the pressures are more now than back in other eras of our history. Maybe its because we always think our time in history is the most important or "bigger" than what went before
He keeps referring as Manchester United as "they". He should be saying "we".
Oh for feck's sake...
Well I mean, it does raise the deeper point of identity... maybe Moyes doesn't feel like he's really part of the Manchester United identity, thus subconciously, he isn't able to say "we" as he doesn't feel like he yet belongs within the fabric of the club... which in turn makes you wonder whether others in the club feel like Moyes is part of the club, and whether he is therefore afforded the respect of someone who uses "we" and not "them".
Or you know... it means nothing and who cares?
Or you know... it means nothing and who cares?
I agree to a large extent. The pressure was certainly on back then too. United fans weren't satisfied with being also-rans - as I remember it we never reached the point where it was accepted that the odd cup was all we could realistically hope for. On the contrary, many were impatiently waiting for the day when we would, as Fergie famously said, knock Liverpool off their feckin' perch and reclaim our "true" standing. A sense of entitlement is not uncommon among fans of clubs that have once been dominant both domestic and abroad. Look at RAWK.
The one big difference, which is material and real, is that it has now become so very vital to remain in the top four. Back then the balance of the league was much less set. A team could drop from third to thirteenth from one season to the next - that would never happen today. Getting back up, once you're down, has become much more difficult. And it would be naive to deny that this will be a factor for the board and the Glazers. You may rebuild, go through a period of transition, but you may not let your foot off the pedal too much - or for too long.
I personally would give a manager all the time in the world if I truly believed in his long-term qualities. The board will hopefully think along the same lines - but they will keep an eye on that bloody Champions League thing: Rebuild, but do it within the top four. I think that will be the premise here, whether we like it or not.
We. See, see?
The attention his choice of words gets is starting to become a little - I don't know? Insane?
This.
He really hasn't a clue about some of the players he is in charge of. Understandable i guess.
Perhaps Moyes is keeping his cards close to his chest. He's the new man; he doesn't want to upset/alienate the more senior players right from the start, so he's hardly going to come out with "There'll be massive changes 'round here once I settle in". Truth is though, there may well be 'massive changes' in the next couple of transfer windows...
Frank O'Farrell had a better record than Moyes.
Won six of his first eight, you're right, the BBC and Guardian are wrong. I'm not sure what to think of the world now
Played better football too. Best, Law, and Charlton's last hurrah.
very good. The facial expression is perfect.Very Regal.
Maybe I am naive - but I actually believe him when he says "I will get it right".
In a way he is bound to say something along those lines - but there is such determination in those words, it reminds me of Ferguson. And I seriously believe if we give Moyes a couple of seasons, we will be back at the top.
In a way he is bound to say something along those lines - but there is such determination in those words, it reminds me of Ferguson. And I seriously believe if we give Moyes a couple of seasons, we will be back at the top.
I think the problem is people cringe at the notion of Moyes taking a Premier League winning side and shaping it to his ideas.
If it were Pep or Mourinho they would be salivating at the prospect, but with Moyes they expect it to be a step down. Blame how it was sold: Moyes = continuity.
I do think he was the better man for the job, but I have to say I worry a bit at times.
All this nonsense about Chicha's movement, etc. I guess the idea is "Don't rest on laurels, everyone starts with a clean slate". But if you are Kagawa and keep seeing Young/Valencia selected and you being spoken of as if you just showed up yesterday, you would wonder... Same with Chicharito who has made a great case for his value to the team in seasons past and may now find himself starting "from scratch" and firmly 4th choice behind Wellbeck, who has a lot to offer but can't score for toffee. Why on earth does Buttner start ahead of Fabio when Evra is rested?
I'm all for a British and youth core, but I have a sneaky feeling Moyes is more at ease with those players and functional players at the detriment of the more "exotic" ones like Kagawa, Nani, Chicha, Anderson, Fabio... His backroom staff changes also indicate that.
I can see how he would be more comfortable with what he knows/is used to, but having such a narrow scope in the personnel department, while it affords an intrinsic solidity to a midtable side, is not viable for a club like ours.
Not having a go, it's a worry based on early observation, let's see how it pans out over the next few months.
You're not the first person to play this weird quasi-race card. How would you explain his alleged excessive fondness for Valencia?
As for the bit about backroom staff, that's just weird. He took people with him from Everton and tried to integrate stalwarts (or former stalwarts) of the United dressing room. How on earth can that demonstrate some sort of prejudice?
Not even sure this is true.
Behind Welbeck for what, the wing or the deep striker position? Yeah clearly because he can't play the role.
But I've seen nothing that indicates he's behind Welbeck for the number 9 spot when Van Persie is missing, so far its 1 start each for them in that role and the Welbeck match was the City game where his industry was probably more suited.
Now that SAF is retired, if Moyes delivers the goods he would replace him as the only top class British manager in the game, right? I mean, who are the other candidates? Redknapp? Rodgers??
I'm not following the early season tripe for the sake of my sanity so I hadn't even noticed it was mentioned before.
It's not a race card, more a "comfort zone" issue which would be completely understandable from a midtable side manager not used to dealing with multicultural teams but relying on a solid core of like-minded/culturally-compatible players.
If you look at SAF it was only in the 00s he started venturing beyond that scope as that was increasingly what modern football demanded. Loads of failed experiments there for a while as well and it was only post 2006 that he started getting the balance right.
It's a classic managerial weakness, e.g. look at Scolari at Chelsea, he couldn't handle it at all yet he goes back to familiar ground with Brazil and they look like WC contenders again. It's not racism but a blindspot, one someone like Guardiola wouldn't have being used to playing alongside Laudrup, Stoichkov, Romario, Ronaldo, Rivaldo...
As said, it's early days and him resorting to what he is most comfortable with would be expected when he is under so much scrutiny (the reverse of a honeymoon period really) but I do hope to see him kick on over the next few months.
Re: Valencia being Ecuadorian is just data, he is more a classic functional midtable PL winger like Young than anything else. In terms of playing style, discipline and mentality he is every bit the sort who would be bang on his comfort zone. Functional, tactically disciplined rinse-repeat sort of player, which when on form can be very effective.
I didn't have a major issue, nor do I say it demonstrates prejudice. It's consistent with what looks like his comfort zone, they are all like-minded British coaches/ex-players with no experience beyond the PL. I'm not advocating he should go get some foreign coaches, just pointing out it is bound to reinforce groupthink/blindspots.
That said, what did SAF do when he embarked on broadening the scope? He got Queiroz as his AM, he knew he was in unfamiliar/uncharted waters bringing in the likes of Verón, Kleberson, Ronaldo, Nani, Tévez, Anderson, the da Silva twins... You could argue over whether it's the chicken or the egg, my view throughout was SAF had worked out he couldn't keep going relying on a strong British core playing 4-4-2 with the odd Nordic/Dutch thrown here and there and actively sought Queiroz to help out with that transition.
I agree, they are different players that offer different things so talking about 3rd/4th choice is a red herring. There's scant evidence so far, clearly, but you would think the moment City looked comfortable just having to take Rooney out of the game SAF would have thrown him on. I understand why Moyes wouldn't, he can't afford to get mauled against City and wouldn't be able to brush it off like SAF would, but it's a relevant issue as far as Chicharito is concerned.
With SAF he knew he was behind RvP and Rooney in the pecking order, would get the occasional start, and would almost invariably be resorted to if we needed a goal. SAF had a lot of faith in him and would find a way to accommodate him, and Chicha surely appreciated he had an important role to play as backup and dependable supersub.
So far out of the three games we dropped points in he only got a shot for about 10 minutes against Liverpool, SAF certainly would have used him more. Again, loads of issues with finding his feet, how best to use his squad, a more cautious manager in a position where he needs to be more cautious than SAF... The next few months will make things clearer, but it's one thing I certainly will be looking out for as he is a 15+ goal/season player and has a knack for finding those goals when all the other strikers fail to.
- Status